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Democrats need to offer a hell of a lot more than “we’re not actively trying to kill you like the Republicans” if they want that.
That continues to be the majority of the way they claim distinction from their Republican peers. They’re riding this gravy train, and they don’t want it to stop. People like Nancy Pelosi are way more concerned with feckless public displays like kneeling while wearing kente cloths instead of actual legislation to reign in out-of-control abusive and violent policing. They’re way more concerned with the money they’ve made from this charade than actually serving the American people.
They have to offer a hell of a lot more than “We’re not Republicans” if they want us doing more than just voting for Biden to make sure Trump doesn’t become President once more. That’s not a choice, that’s a hostage situation.
Biden has objectively had one of the most progressive and active policy agendas in a generation. Even with his failed policies like student loan forgiveness, as soon as it was overturned by SCOTUS, he wasted no time and immediately proposed another way to do it. Given that Dems don’t control congress, this has been an amazingly productive term.
In fact, Bernie Sanders said of Biden, “I think he is a much more progressive president than he was a United States senator.” Sanders credits the progressive task forces that they did together while campaigning.
I agree that Dems need to offer more. But I also think the left eats itself. There are two kinds of low information voters. One kind adores their leaders unthinkingly. But the other kind refuses to give credit when it’s due.
The duopoly is just a game of Good Cop, Bad Cop
Which is why I always vote bad cop. He tells it how it is!Edit: Oop, didn’t notice that this is beehaw. Tough to tell the instance from the mobile kbin site.
About a decade ago, me and my family were part of the very movement that changed the Republican party into the beast it is today. We made it very clear to party members that moderates would not be tolerated. We demonized the RINOs as much as we demonized the Democrats, the Liberals and the Obamas. By primary season of 2016, the last influences of the old Republican party were stamped out. Trump was the achievement of the Tea Party, and how it flipped the neo liberal conservative party into a fascist one.
Blame the Democrats all you want for being milquetoast, weak, or ineffective in the face of the Republican party. As someone who has played for both teams, I have never seen the same fire from Democratic voters to change their party as I have from the Republicans. There is no party wide effort to weed out Democrats who work in the interests of companies only, or are essentially Republicans with the Democrat label. There has been no unified direction for the future Democrats want to see for the US other than the current status quo.
What we did in the Tea Party, is we got involved at every stage of government. We found out who our state and federal legislators were, and if they did not stand with our views, we primaried them out. We took trips to Washington as a church, or as a young Republican’s association, and we rallied in front of every monument that they would allow us in front of. In our eyes, our goal was righteous, and we were in a battle for the soul of the country.
I abhor everything I was back then, and feel guilty for the present we have created today. But if there is one take away from my time in the Tea Party that I think could apply to Democrats is you don’t have to settle for less. By all means vote for Biden again, but you should make it clear to every Democrat defending their seat next year that you won’t be settling for spineless enablers. Now’s the time to start campaigning progressive candidates to run against them. Any progressive you get elected should be seen as a victory, and every neo liberal who loses should take it as a message that they are no longer electable. You should practice that democracy as much as you can while you still have it.
Just a reminder to everyone in the comments to be kind. Folks feel very strongly about this subject, and for very good reasons, but we can have empathy and compassion for one another even while disagreeing. Please remember that you are interacting with other humans here.
I vote (D) because the other option under our FPtP system is fascism.
So, basically, “you’re not doing enough for your party!” Gee, thanks for the encouragement.
Why, when I am an anarcho-communist, should I work hard to support the neoliberal candidate? I am not lifting a goddamned finger for Joseph R. Biden Jr other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.
I think part of it though is if you at least talk about being willing to vote for him due to the dangers of the current GOP you may sway other communists/socialists who would vote third party to vote for Biden by seeing the good in at least protecting from the current social Neo-conservatism within the GOP.
It’s not even about seeing the good, it’s about understanding the real, serious harm the GOP wants to inflict on much of the voting populace. They want to violently beat and disappear people who disagree with them.
And therein lies the problem, because the Democrats are leaning hard on how absolutely vile the GOP is, and continue to act as though they don’t have to offer anything because all they have to offer is “we’re not literally destroying lives and setting people up to be killed by violence or systemic abuse” (which is also arguable because they are also not doing a lot to stop these things). So they don’t see themselves needing to try harder for the American people, because all they have to do is be like “We’re not as bad as the other guys!” Because the Democrats are fascism-lite, they don’t actually want to solve problems with policing or having a two-tiered justice system or tax the people who fund them.
Leftists are keenly aware of the danger, and they’re pretty sick of being expected to vote for people they loathe to “save” the country from itself. Why is it our job instead of Democrats job to fucking do better and fight harder? We’ll do it because it’s better than straight fascism, but asking us to pat some dim motherfuckers on the back because they couldn’t be fucked to fight fascism themselves and wanted us to do it at the ballot box is some straight bullshit.
Republicans at least have a vision they can describe to people. It’s a racist, sexist, homophobic vision, but it’s at least a vision they can get their base to support.
Democrats don’t seem to have any plans beyond keeping the status quo. However, since most people don’t like the status quo it’s really hard to get them excited to vote for Democrats. So they have to resort to fearing the Republicans.
The fear is real.
Democrats do use the government to help people.
but asking us to pat some dim motherfuckers on the back because they couldn’t be fucked to fight fascism themselves and wanted us to do it at the ballot box is some straight bullshit.
Not only do that, but they actively BOOST fascism. They keep using the pied piper strategy over and over again. If they’re that bad (and I’m not denying that they are), why in the world do they keep signal boosting those fucks?
Cause it makes for an easy election win cause they don’t have to promise anything, just point to the contrast. I.E. they keep risking the fate of the entire world to win elections in a way that doesn’t affect their corporate donors.
Just insane.
They need to get with the goddamn program and start actually making solid moves with clear results. Michigan and Minnesota have been successful in this recently, at least. The vast majority of establishment Dems haven’t fought for anything but the status quo for decades. That’s a fair percentage of the reason we are in this mess in the first place, because in their eyes even if Trump isn’t doing the right thing, he’s at least doing something different. It’s shitty logic, but it is hard to argue with when the alternative keeps being old white guys that don’t want to offend corporations.
I dislike Biden intensely. I meant what I said when I wouldn’t lift a finger to help him other than vote for him. I sure as hell am not going to work to sway others in my circle to vote for him. That’s entirely up to them and the conclusions they draw. It is going against my principles as it is to vote for someone that does not represent my best interests. It’s worse that he doesn’t even represent my best interests, he does everything counter to them.
I’m fiscally conservative, but I will work to get people convinced to vote for Biden. You said you would as well. That to me is lifting a finger
No, that’s not.
There are no viable 3rd party candidates thus far. If one does happen to pop up, I will at least entertain what they have to say and listen to them.
other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.
For whatever it’s worth, as a gay guy with trans friends that have had to flee our home state because of GOP policies, that vote is more than enough for me. I’m more on the normie shit-lib side of online political discourse, but we do still have a lot more in common than with the GOP, and we can come together to work on common goals and prevent a lot of very real harm from happening. I know political progress is a lot slower than you (or I, for that matter) would want, but still, it is genuinely appreciated.
If you consider yourself to be “shit-lib” then we have nothing in common because I want to put a terminal end to both parties and breakdown and rebuild our society from the ground up. Both parties are terrible for different reasons. One impedes progress through tokenism and incrementalism and celebrating that as a victory. The other party are Christofascists. You and I are nothing alike. Note that I am purposely leaving your identity out of this because one thing I feel strongly about is LGBTQ+ rights. People identifying as LGBTQ+ would flourish in a system where one party (i.e. the Democrats) does not use you as pawns and the other party (i.e. the Republicans) does not want to relegate you to an underclass.
Well regardless, it’s appreciated. Not living under Christofascism is personally something of a priority for me, and I imagine it’s not hugely appealing to you either, so even if that’s the only common point (which honestly, I do rather doubt), I’ll take it.
And hey, if a realistic revolutionary path does open up, I’ll at least be open to the conversation. I’m a bit skeptical of that happening anytime particularly soon, but I’ll have an open ear should the opportunity arise.
I’m not a violent person but if our society becomes an analog to Talibani Afghanistan, I won’t go down without a fight. Better to die fighting than die in a Christian re-education camp.
Because under a FPtP system, the other option, the one you will get from not understanding math & game theory is currently fascism.
To paraphrase Charlamagne tha God: Biden wants to be ratchet pussy.
Our system is a ratchet model, in which the Dems try to maintain the current spot on the continuum, while the GOP moves everything to the right when it’s in power.
On one hand I will be down the D line in the next election because I do understand that the alternative is things getting worse with the republican party and we can only hope two definitive losses can snap the party out of their current strategy and ease up.
On the OTHER hand I’ll be honest I dont see the changes in the republican party happening anytime soon especially since it’s been this way since reagan. Sure neolibs will clutch their pearls and talk about better days but while the rhetoric may be a little more transparent in some cases, the republicans havent changed all that much. Election fraud fear mongering was a bush era dog whistle, and theyve been chomping away at abortion, appointing conservative leaning judges, and trying to limit public education and programs for decades.
Meanwhile what has the status quo democratic party done about it? They pushed further right in the 90s in order to try to win away Reagan voters and then spent the next few decades as wimpy pro capitalist centrists. Gaining an inch while the right takes a foot and then wagging their finger over how they would never play so dirty. Just look at the last Obama era judge appointee.
They could have fought to make sure their neutral judge would make the bench. But oh no the norms we couldnt do that. Deep down they were so SURE that Clinton could never lose so they wanted to look like they were the grownups who upheld political norms and then get it done anyway. What wound up happening? The republicans repealed that block privilege once in power and pushed their appointments in without issue.
I cant blame people for becoming exhausted and feeling like “not being the republicans” is not enough to keep rewarding the Democrats for being weak. They abandoned the working class and unions in the 90s, they continued to push right and attack their progressive wing while trying to continue to court center right voters. Now that they let the republicans go wild the last 40 years theyre telling us “you better vote for us or DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE! and our policy is the continue doing more of the same”
It’s like if an owner of a dog spent years training it poorly and smacking it around is holding the leash tight as the dog starts barking and jumping towards you. You suggest maybe changing the owner of the dog, but they reply “well if Im not their owner anymore then Im going to let go of the leash and who knows what the dog will do while you wait for the dog catcher to come and get it”
Id settle for “stop pretending neoliberals are the same as fascists” but something tells me the “less progress than all the progress is worse than negative progress, I’m so smart” people aren’t very likely to do that.
Edit: yeah so looking at some of the stuff under here…smh
Seriously, it’s such a naive stance to think that just because progress didn’t arrive hand delivered to your doorstep gift-wrapped with a bow on top exactly the way you imagined, then it’s not worth having. What a ridiculous idea. Progress is progress. Every little step brings us closer to the next step. Demanding perfection all at once is going to get us exactly nowhere.
Stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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did nothing besides force people to pay for private insurance that covers nothing.
Which also as a result gave insurance companies even more money to use to fight against any reform to healthcare.
They use our own money against us, and it’s insane we keep letting them, but rock and hard place.
I’m still uninsured, nothing has changed for me since the ACA. Here’s the thing – I’m not interested in “incremental generational change”, because I need healthcare myself in my lifetime. And I’m especially not interested in hearing that rhetoric from politicians who get a supermajority and do nothing with it.
I’ve lost good friends to healthcare costs. Incremental change doesn’t mean shit to me anymore. They’re dead, they’re not coming back.
The Republican gutting of the individual mandate and refusal to accept federal funds to expand Medicaid is what crippled the ACA.
We only got to see the actual ACA in action for like two years and it was working. It always comes down to the Republicans actively working to ruin any progress we make.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2019.01433
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What state are you in? Was it one that refused to expand Medicaid? Because here in Massachusetts, which is the model state for the ACA, our Medicaid (Masshealth) is actually the best insurance I’ve ever had in my entire life. The individual mandate HAS to be accompanied by subsidies and expansion of Medicaid or it doesn’t work.
I appreciate that some people are able to afford to forego insurance, but most people can’t in reality. (I can’t. I have a chronic illness. I require daily meds for life.) And when they get sick, their cost still exists in the system and it’s more expensive. It’s not different from being forced to carry car insurance, if you drive.
That said, housing costs are out of control. I advocate at every moment to increase the housing supply. (Currently in polite disagreement with my NIMBY neighbors over a proposed new housing development near us.) Drug costs are out of control and need to be regulated. (I prefer nationalized, actually. But I know that’s a nonstarter in the US).
I’ve been voting regularly for 20 years and I’ve yet to see real progress on issues I care about. I still vote because it makes for a good example of how our system of government is crap.
I’ve been voting regularly for 20 years and the ACA was a massive move in the correct direction…until Republicans gutted the individual mandate and refused federal funds for Medicaid expansion. It’s always the Republicans ruining any semblance of progress that we make. I find Dems most guilty of trusting SCOTUS to do their jobs for them.
I want to see Dems again get a solid, undeniable majority in both chambers in 2024. Then push the priority passage of voting rights and anti-gerrymandering legislation. Those are concrete fixes to the system.
Even with the ACA I’m too afraid to use my health insurance lest I go bankrupt. I fell and hit my head and the ER bill, even with “good” insurance, was over $3,000. I would have been better off if I set my nose and sealed the cut with super glue myself. I’m paying $600 a month for insurance I can’t use without going bankrupt.
Health care is still broken after the ACA, and will continue to be broken until we get rid of the rent-seekers in the health care industry. But Democrats seem to like those folks so I guess I’ll just buy my meds from Tractor Supply and invest in a good needle and thread.
The ACA was only ever meant to be a first step. It was never intended to be the end goal. The Republicans gutting the individual mandate is what stole that momentum because it leaves simply being uninsured as an unfortunately viable financial option for enough people that it reduced pressure to reform the rest of the system.
The end goal is single payer. But it’s difficult to the point of bordering on impossible to shift from what we had instantly into single payer in the third most populous country on the planet. It’s estimated that single payer will put nearly 400,000 private insurance middle-people out of jobs. That’s not a negligible problem. We’re going to need a way to address that in the process of making the shift.
The ACA open markets have allowed me to leave jobs that I otherwise would not have been able to leave because I can’t afford to go 30-90 days without health insurance. That open market didn’t even exist when I was a young adult 20 years ago. Insurance gaps between jobs were simply a fact of life that a lot of people couldn’t abide
I am highly doubtful that the end goal is single payer.
Single payer is the only actually viable option. The more change we make, the more obvious that will become. Probably single payer with private supplementation is where we’ll end up because America will never settle for rich people not being able to buy nicer lives than the rest of us.
I agree with you. Joe Biden has done some good things while he was president. I voted for him. I wish he hadn’t ran for a second term. He is too old. He is too old. He is too old. BUT since he has decided to run I will vote for him again because if the Republicans or Trump get in charge with the Congress and the supreme Court, our democracy will not survive. They already don’t want people voting, and they don’t want young people voting. They want a Christian Nation and rule us.
Genuinely curious, what issues are those?
Climate change, education, health care, and income inequality
For climate, American emissions peaked about 20 years ago and have been trending in the right direction
For education, both high school and college graduation rates have significantly [increased] over the last 20 years. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/184260/educational-attainment-in-the-us/)
For healthcare, researchers estimate the Affordable Care Act has saved tens of thousands of lives.
Income inequality is undeniable and I won’t pretend to have much to offer there, though it’s my loose understanding that, depending on the exact analysis, real inflation-adjusted wages haven’t necessarily been as stagnant as some flashier reports describe. There have also been massive failures in things like housing and education policy that have led to some costs disproportionately exploding.
Regardless though, my point is just that, even if it’s been slower than anyone might like, progress has genuinely been happening. It’s not been fairly distributed, and god knows we still have problems, but I think it’s important to not lose sight of that fact that we have come a long way too. That’s to say nothing about a lot of very obvious progress that has been made on some social matters like LGBT rights.
I’m still paying hundreds of dollars a month for insurance I’m too afraid of bankruptcy to use, I will never be able to afford to send my kids to college, we’re still on track for a catastrophic 2°C of temperature rise, and there’s still ultra-rich assholes with too much goddamn money.
Yay progress.
My vague understanding is that global warming is expected to peak - if current rates of progress continue - at 1.5 C, which is still quite bad, but not as harmful as 2 C.
To be clear, I’m very much not saying that everything is perfect. But at the least, for instance, that insurance isn’t barring you for pre-existing conditions and doesn’t come with a lifetime cap. And again, there are thousands of people who are alive and not dead. That’s probably not much personal solace, but it is still real progress.
What are some issues you care about that you’ve seen no progress on?
Vote for the Most Progressive
Upvote. We should always vote for less bad.
Republican obstructionism is worse than Democrat foot-dragging. Sorry, I know people get frustrated with the lack of progress, but one of those things is clearly a bigger problem than the other.
If a third party revolutionary candidate were actually viable and likely to provide even incremental improvement in the lives of real people, then I’d be on board. But it’s not viable. Incremental progress is preferable to no progress or negative progress.
Democrat foot dragging enables Republican obstructionism.
The ACA, the infrastructure bill, the climate bill, getting sick days for rail workers without crashing the entire country
It’s not perfect, but it is progress
It’s the almost invisible boring little bureaucratic improvements that I actually find most exciting because they signal the real intent of the administration: https://prospect.org/labor/2023-08-07-biden-admin-labor-rule-davis-bacon/
So, since you recognize the importance of tackling climate change, let’s focus on that for a minute. Even with the climate bill, we are still looking at a bleak future.
This “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good” speil is literally enabling a worse, more drastically dangerous climate future. Period.
It will get worse if not addressed seriously and the band-aids Democrats are offering will not prevent that bleak, bad future.
Scientists have been saying as much for decades and we are still not even close to taking it seriously enough. So the climate bill and how far it falls short is actually a mark against them, imho.
If it won’t prevent the worst climate catastrophes that could result in global mass extinction (already happening, arguably), then it isn’t even close to enough and we will be leaving our children and grandchildren a horrible hollowed out husk of a planet.
This matters, and so acting like it is “letting perfect be the enemy of good” is flat out disingenuous.
People will die because of decades of inaction. Lives that didn’t have to end that way. It is selling out the future of our species for so-called “stability” now.
Essentially, it’s a choice between Republicans: “Extinction NOW!” and Democrats: “Extinction for your great grandchildren!” Kicking the can down the road for our children and their children to fix when we’re long dead and gone is just as bad of a end result. Either way, if things aren’t changed, society at large will fail and we will face our own extinction. The people living in that future will not give one shit about the so-called “progress” we made here.
I get that the GOP wants to speedrun us into a Mad Max future, but slow walking us there isn’t any better.
Republicans are actively working to make it worse on purpose
What do you propose? Give me something that is viable.
People are going to die. Our stupid populace always refuses to come around and pay attention to an issue until they see bodies in the streets. That’s the real reason we haven’t seen major action on climate change until now. I don’t prefer that reality, but it is sadly the one that we are working with whether we like it or not.
The climate bill isn’t enough, but is that a reason to throw all progress out the door and allow the ones who are actively trying to destroy the world into power?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-scientists-say-about-the-historic-climate-bill/
Who is proposing throwing all that progress out?
I have been very clear that I understand the clear and present danger the GOP represents and that I will continue to vote Democrat while gritting my teeth knowing people deserve better. I have stated as much in this thread.
Am I not allowed to critique them without insinuations that I must be making bad choices in voting or am a Republican plant? Why am I not allowed to point out the reality that what the Democrats have given still isn’t enough?
Ok, well you didn’t say that in any comments to me, so I didn’t see it. But also, let’s not pretend like there aren’t right-wing bad actors out on these platforms pushing that exact “both sides” message to discourage people from voting. Because you and I both know there are. These public comments have consequences
Our stupid populace always refuses to come around and pay attention to an issue until they see bodies in the streets.
Nineteen kindergartners were murdered in cold blood in a school and nothing changed.
Bodies in the street don’t even affect them anymore.
But a third party will likely never be viable in within the lifetimes of people alive today, unless the Democrats suddenly decide to overturn FPTP voting.
So understand what you are asking of people. People are more than “frustrated with the lack of progress”, they are enraged because they recognise that the current system will NEVER deliver them real justice and dignity. That they will be faced with this exact same situation every single election. And you are asking them to be content living with their rights and well-being on a knife-edge, likely for the rest of their lives. Because while the Democrats won’t give them justice, the alternative is fascism.
So you are correct, the Republicans are objectively worse, and people should vote for the most progressive viable candidates possible. But the neoliberal tendency to demand that leftists stop complaining while they give up everything in the name of “compromise”, and then tendency to blame leftists for neoliberal losses anyway, is galling.
Marianne 2024✊
Vote 3rd party, the 2 party system in the US is a scam, and your vote is just a drop in the bucket anyway.
This is the worst plan possible because of the phenomenon of vote splitting. If your #1 issue you want solved is FPTP voting, vote for the party that’s shown the biggest tendency to reform that, the Democrats.
If you feel your vote is still worthless, stop complaining online and get involved locally and on a state level to enact the voting reform of your choice.
The US uses a First-Past-The-Post voting system. Third parties are non-viable in such a system. Mathematically.
That is why you have this inane conversation every four years. Because any progressive third-party candidate becomes a “spoiler” for the Democrats, rather than forcing coalitions and compromises, as it should in an actual functional democracy. So every four years we get to hear how leftists should “compromise” by completely giving up their entire position to support a neoliberal candidate because to do otherwise allows the Republicans to continue to hurt women and minorities.
Nothing will fundamentally change until the voting system changes. So of course neither political party is especially motivated to change it.
Again you are correct. There are right wing donors funding RFK Jr and right wing commentators supporting RFK Jr. They feel he can take enough votes away from Democrats for Republicans to gain power again.
Vote for either party provides legimacy to the regime as a whole, which is a nice feature for them as they take turns playing good cop/bad cop.
No. Don’t leave power on the table.
Voting is not enough for real change, but that doesn’t mean you don’t vote. You vote, in every damn election you can, for the most progressive candidate that you can. Because at the end of the day those election will still put people into positions of power. You are not undermining the system by not voting.
I don’t care to okay two party circle jerk. So I vote third every time.
You are free to continue support the system as is. I am sure we will get reforms needed today in 50 years.
I literally just said that “voting is not enough for real change”. The implication being that one should vote AND agitate for change via other channels.
Because what you are proposing, is doing nothing. Your choice not to “support” the system, accomplishes zero.
You are within your rights to do nothing, but don’t pretend that it is anything other than that.
I am sharing my opinion, others can make their own judgements on how they want to proceed.
You are entitled to yours, I am sure shilling your political party is a priority to you but most of us just looking to shake things up. Voting either party is feed the troll, you like or or not.
Obviously things like this require generational shifts since voting for any of the critters provided now won’t do jack shit for the working people.
“If only y’all plebs voted for my candidates, we wouldn’t be here” logic never checked out. See Obama or trump for that matter lol.
I am sure shilling your political party is a priority to you
Where the hell have I done that? Go read my comments. And pull your head out. I’m quite obviously no fan of neolibs.
but most of us just looking to shake things up.
Then actually DO SOMETHING! Because what you are proposing is doing LITERALLY NOTHING. Not voting does nothing. Even third party is mathematically doing nothing. You might not like that, but it’s true.
If you want actual change, vote for progressives in local elections. Vote out the neoliberals one by one. And in the mean time, build alternative power, organise in your workplace, unionise, build mutual support networks.
“You vote, in every damn election you can, for the most progressive candidate that you can.”
You think you vote 3rd party but in reality you’re just donating it to the GQP
This is correct. Republicans want to change the way we count votes, so that they can decide if they want to count your vote or not.
They can not gain power again if we want to keep our democracy.
Math & Game Theory will never allow a viable 3rd party in the USA as long as we still have FPtP voting.
Your individual vote is worth little but convincing many people of their impotence is incredibly effective at swinging elections. See: US Bernie/Green Party votes 2016.
Bernie conceded to hilldawg…disgusting
I voted for Bernie in the primaries, twice. But the young people didn’t go out and vote for him and he lost. I think Bernie is too old to run now too.
