Of minors in a court setting. What better way to intimidate children into not coming forward than the idea of being put into a spectacle to relive your horror.
Yeah, imagine putting a 13-year-old girl on the stand, in front of reporters, judges, lawyers, potentially their rapist, and definitely their parents, and having them go blow-by-blow with a lawyer who’s already adversarial in nature and out to catch them in a lie, or confuse them, and likely has been doing this work for years.
No, this couldn’t possibly be a good reason for kids to shut the fuck up when a teacher or another kid molests them. Being a kid is already hard enough, going through a sexual assault is hard, so let’s pile a huge media spectacle (that will likely make it onto everyone at school’s social media feeds) on top of all that trauma AND force them to relive it in front of everyone for the express purpose of the defense lawyer trying to catch you in a gotcha.
Not the structure of these things. Presuming as media has been reporting Trump has basically just tossed the Biden changes (which were largely a reinstatement of Obama-era rules and reverting the 2018 Trump changes, barring some of the ones that lawsuits were lost over) and rolled back to the 2018 version, the way it works is more like this:
You have a specific person whose job is to function as a judge-analog for these hearings, and a specific person who functions as a prosecutor-analog. It’s typically the Title IX coordinator and someone working under them. Under Trump rules, these are required to be different people while under Biden and Obama era rules your judge-analog and prosecutor-analog could be the same person.
The accused is allowed to have a lawyer present under Trump rules, and must have a faculty assistant familiar with the process if they do not have a lawyer. Under Biden and Obama era rules it was acceptable for a school to bar the accused from having a lawyer present or any other representation.
Yes, live hearings are required, but it’s not what you’re implying. Either party can request the hearing be done by teleconference if they don’t want to be in the room for any reason. Normally it’s only the accused, accuser, a lawyer or faculty assistant for the accused, prosecutor and judge analogs and possibly parents or corroborating witnesses if either party requests them present. There’s no huge media spectacle like you’re implying, it’s normally a closed hearing.
Yes, cross-examination is required, but it’s also not what you are implying. The accused is not allowed to ask questions directly and any questions have to be approved by the judge-analog before they can be asked. The main difference between Biden/Obama and Trump guidelines here is that the questions are asked and answered on the spot, rather than questions regarding testimony by the accuser being submitted in writing and allowing them as long as they need to write the most effective possible answers they can think of. Testimony of the accused has always been live and subject to questioning with no real guardrails.
Let’s not forget that the standard for punishment in this case is at the strictest “clear and convincing” (more convincing than preponderance but less than beyond a reasonable doubt) and is often “preponderance of the evidence” (literally slightly more likely than not). The Obama/Biden guidelines were that the standard must be “preponderance”.
The accused is required to have timely access to what they are being accused of and what evidence will be brought, so that it is possible to formulate a defense.
The accused is required to have access to the training materials used to teach faculty about these procedures and standards, so that the accused can know what to expect at all.
Under Trump guidelines, you cannot punish the accused until after the a finding is arrived at. You can make changes as needed for the comfort of the accuser before any hearing, but nothing punitive (for example you can change the schedules of one or both so they don’t share classes, change housing arrangements, etc but not for example suspend someone for having been accused without a hearing and finding happening).
Most of these are pretty basic fairness and due process things.
I don’t think you realize what Title IX guidelines were like under Obama, some of the shit that was allowed or expected. Like the accused having no guidance or representation through the process and in some cases explicitly not being allowed to have a lawyer. Not being allowed to know what evidence was being brought against them or even necessarily exactly what they were accused of until the hearing or very shortly before. Having faculty trained using training materials (which the accused was not allowed to see) that explicitly say that women never ever lie but that men will say whatever they need to, in a system where the margin to be found liable is slightly more likely than not (note I said men and women here and not accused or accuser, because the materials in question were explicitly gendered once the guy accused in one case sued to be allowed to see them). There was a case where a guy accused a girl, and after being informed of the accusation responded by accusing him so his accusation was deemed retaliatory and shut down while hers was allowed to proceed.
Hopefully, this is mostly about colleges. I really don’t want to think that minors raping minors is a common issue in the US. …Somehow, I am afraid to check now.
What better way to intimidate children into not coming forward than the idea of being put into a spectacle to relive your horror.
I am not saying it is ideal, but it is not an unmoderated spectacle either. There generally are protections for underage witnesses and witnesses in general even in courts, which this is not. Between that and just assuming a person is guilty, it is the lesser evil to have them testify.
In addition, the fact prosecutors repeatedly refused to prosecute for false accusations when those came to light clearly shows this policy was never done in good fate. Life destroying consequences for the accused with next to no recourse but no consequences for the accuser when they are caught lying is just ridiculous.
I did not look up the statistics for this specifically, because I never considered them relevant to this issue. If anything, minors would be even less able to defend themselves from accusations and need a lawyer.
Your comment reminds me of cars with Lets Go Brandon bumper stickers. Which all started with “impeach, the president and her husband too” bumper stickers during the Clinton administration. That’s when people got so delusional. They started putting the opposition on their vehicle and letting them occupy space in their head full time.
And I know that’s where you were going with your comment. The problem is in this particular situation you look like the person who is unhinged. The entire purpose of this group is about Trump. Every Post in it will be about Trump. Anybody replying to a post is replying about something Trump did. Any comment someone is replying to will be about Trump. This is like the one place where literally everyone has Trump on their mind because that’s the entire reason for existing. So you comment just doesn’t work. If someone wasn’t thinking about Trump while commenting in here that means they’ve gotten off topic.
It’s pretty fucked up that an accusation on such a level wouldn’t even cause you a moments reflection. You’re arguing in bad faith, making ad hominem attacks, and really look like a fool. Maybe stop replying to every single comment, show this to a friend you disagree with sometimes, and get their opinion. I reckon you’re too cowardly for any of that but it’s worth showing the way.
If that was your point you did a horrible job of making it because you didn’t address their point at all. You talked about their mindset. That’s a complete failure of communication.
This is the same kind of dumbass shit we saw defending him during the impeachment. “He didn’t literally say the words quid pro quo so you can’t claim that’s what he was doing”.
Smart people do not think this way. They don’t need actions to have corresponding exposition to figure out what is going on
Which would you rather have: more rapes, or more kids kicked out of school for false allegations?
If this is a hard question, then I hope you gain experiences that make it easier to decide. Learning is important.
Plus, the false allegation thing is kinda bunk. If it happens, then sue them for libel. Since there isn’t a lot of that going on, I think it’s less of an issue than, ya know, rape.
Anecdotally, I know four rape victims that didn’t come forward. I know zero men who were falsely accused. I’m sure I’m not special in this regard.
Which would you rather have: more rapes, or more kids kicked out of school for false allegations?
It’s a false dichotomy. There are other ways to prevent rape at schools without throwing away due process.
Plus, the false allegation thing is kinda bunk. If it happens, then sue them for libel. Since there isn’t a lot of that going on, I think it’s less of an issue than, ya know, rape.
Yes, because common students routinely have 10s of thousands of $ to pay for lawyers to probably not even get back the same amount.
Anecdotally, I know four rape victims that didn’t come forward. I know zero men who were falsely accused. I’m sure I’m not special in this regard.
So you are saying throwing away due process did not even work to make them come forward in the first place, since this was repealed just now.
If there were other ways to prevent rape, they would be there already. So you’re clearly wrong.
I agree we should provide free law services to people without money so they can get justice just like the rich people. Let’s do that. And we can do that without endangering young girls.
There is no due process being thrown away. These people aren’t going to jail. They’re being kicked out of school. A school can kick out a child for literally anything that isn’t a protected class. Rape allegations seems like a pretty good reason to kick someone out, especially compared to some other reasons people have been kicked out, like protesting.
If there were other ways to prevent rape, they would be there already. So you’re clearly wrong.
Ah, my bad. I did not realize a good government healthcare is not possible because it is not already there.
Also a shame safer roads are impossible to build, otherwise they already would have. Or walkable cities. Mass transit.
Yeah, something good not already existing clearly means it is not possible. I will give up any attempt to improve anything at once. /s
There is no due process being thrown away. These people aren’t going to jail.
Oh, my apologies. Did not know anything that does not put you in jail does not deserve due process. You must be so angry at Luigi and his fans since clearly rejecting insurance claims is also not putting you in jail and does not deserve any due process. It is just financial ruin, same as having student loans without a degree. Not an issue at all. /s
A school can kick out a child for literally anything that isn’t a protected class.
Ah yes, the “things are already bad so we should make them worse” argument. Also, its not even really true.
Seriously, what the fuck are these arguments of yours? You can’t possibly believe them yourself. Are you just trying to retroactively come up with arguments for a policy you just insist on believing because the guy who said it had (D) after their name? Just making up arguments for others, without actually using them to shape your own opinions?
Ok, so you agree there aren’t things in place to prevent rape. Only that there could one day be. Great. Go do that. The lack of its current existence makes it irrelevant to the conversation. That’s my point.
Due process is very very clearly a legal term. Private institutions aren’t required to follow anything like it. You need to differentiate between what IS and what you wish were the case.
I don’t care who made the rule. Fuck the Democrats. I care that women who are raped are being silenced. It’s literally that simple.
Go elect me for office and I will. Until then, there is nothing I can do for you.
Due process is very very clearly a legal term. Private institutions aren’t required to follow anything like it.
What the fuck do you think we are talking about this whole fucking time? Title IX mandates a process schools have to follow. Trumps changes bring it closer to what is considered a due process. The whole fucking conversation is about whether that is a good thing.
You need to differentiate between what IS and what you wish were the case.
It literally IS. You are the one seething that men are now actually granted reasonable due process protections.
I care that women who are raped are being silenced.
How the fuck are they being silenced? It literally requires the opposite, that they testify properly.
Just because a law says you have to do something doesn’t make it due process. Registering your car isn’t due process. You don’t get due process unless you’re in court. This isn’t that. There is no court. A “hearing” of school officials isn’t due process. There’s no sentencing. There’s no lawyers. There’s no guilty or not guilty. There’s a bunch of school admins doing a dance and then picking if you get kicked out.
How are they being silenced? Because anytime you make something harder, more embarrassing, or riskier, people won’t do it. This is also not hard to understand.
Again, I can hear it in your words and tone. You WANT this to be true. You want women to be brave enough to always stand up for themselves. You WANT a fair process with legal style standards to impose true justice based on facts. This isn’t that. It doesn’t get you closer to that. All it does it shut women up by making it harder for them to do the right thing.
Of minors in a court setting. What better way to intimidate children into not coming forward than the idea of being put into a spectacle to relive your horror.
Yeah, imagine putting a 13-year-old girl on the stand, in front of reporters, judges, lawyers, potentially their rapist, and definitely their parents, and having them go blow-by-blow with a lawyer who’s already adversarial in nature and out to catch them in a lie, or confuse them, and likely has been doing this work for years.
No, this couldn’t possibly be a good reason for kids to shut the fuck up when a teacher or another kid molests them. Being a kid is already hard enough, going through a sexual assault is hard, so let’s pile a huge media spectacle (that will likely make it onto everyone at school’s social media feeds) on top of all that trauma AND force them to relive it in front of everyone for the express purpose of the defense lawyer trying to catch you in a gotcha.
Not the structure of these things. Presuming as media has been reporting Trump has basically just tossed the Biden changes (which were largely a reinstatement of Obama-era rules and reverting the 2018 Trump changes, barring some of the ones that lawsuits were lost over) and rolled back to the 2018 version, the way it works is more like this:
Most of these are pretty basic fairness and due process things.
I don’t think you realize what Title IX guidelines were like under Obama, some of the shit that was allowed or expected. Like the accused having no guidance or representation through the process and in some cases explicitly not being allowed to have a lawyer. Not being allowed to know what evidence was being brought against them or even necessarily exactly what they were accused of until the hearing or very shortly before. Having faculty trained using training materials (which the accused was not allowed to see) that explicitly say that women never ever lie but that men will say whatever they need to, in a system where the margin to be found liable is slightly more likely than not (note I said men and women here and not accused or accuser, because the materials in question were explicitly gendered once the guy accused in one case sued to be allowed to see them). There was a case where a guy accused a girl, and after being informed of the accusation responded by accusing him so his accusation was deemed retaliatory and shut down while hers was allowed to proceed.
Hopefully, this is mostly about colleges. I really don’t want to think that minors raping minors is a common issue in the US. …Somehow, I am afraid to check now.
I am not saying it is ideal, but it is not an unmoderated spectacle either. There generally are protections for underage witnesses and witnesses in general even in courts, which this is not. Between that and just assuming a person is guilty, it is the lesser evil to have them testify.
In addition, the fact prosecutors repeatedly refused to prosecute for false accusations when those came to light clearly shows this policy was never done in good fate. Life destroying consequences for the accused with next to no recourse but no consequences for the accuser when they are caught lying is just ridiculous.
“Hopefully”? So you don’t even know the details of this, and yet you came on here to berate people who understand it more than you and are against it?
Cool.
I did not look up the statistics for this specifically, because I never considered them relevant to this issue. If anything, minors would be even less able to defend themselves from accusations and need a lawyer.
There’s no “hopefully” or benefit of the doubt for this guy. He has been proven to be a rapist in court.
Who? Trump? Are you literally incapable of forming two sentences without talking about him?
Your comment reminds me of cars with Lets Go Brandon bumper stickers. Which all started with “impeach, the president and her husband too” bumper stickers during the Clinton administration. That’s when people got so delusional. They started putting the opposition on their vehicle and letting them occupy space in their head full time.
And I know that’s where you were going with your comment. The problem is in this particular situation you look like the person who is unhinged. The entire purpose of this group is about Trump. Every Post in it will be about Trump. Anybody replying to a post is replying about something Trump did. Any comment someone is replying to will be about Trump. This is like the one place where literally everyone has Trump on their mind because that’s the entire reason for existing. So you comment just doesn’t work. If someone wasn’t thinking about Trump while commenting in here that means they’ve gotten off topic.
My point is more along these lines: https://lemmy.world/comment/14877800
That people are bashing on a policy that is IMO good or at least not that bad because of who put it in place.
It’s bad because of what it is, it’s gross because of who pushed it. You look like a child rapist apologist bud.
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It’s pretty fucked up that an accusation on such a level wouldn’t even cause you a moments reflection. You’re arguing in bad faith, making ad hominem attacks, and really look like a fool. Maybe stop replying to every single comment, show this to a friend you disagree with sometimes, and get their opinion. I reckon you’re too cowardly for any of that but it’s worth showing the way.
If that was your point you did a horrible job of making it because you didn’t address their point at all. You talked about their mindset. That’s a complete failure of communication.
It is not.
You made me think for a moment it was only about K-12 since you left out the “and colleges” part.
Anyway, it is even shittier if they forced minors to face such serious accusations without a lawyer or other adequate representation.
Why are you here? You see people upset about Trump, and your first reaction is “these people are overreacting”.
Then people explain to you why it’s not an overreaction, and once you actually understand what’s happening, you agree?
And yet you continue anyway?
I see you.
When did I say that?
Did I fucking say you said it?
Are you able to read minds? If I didn’t say it, why are you assuming that was my reaction.
The word of the day is “implication.”
This is the same kind of dumbass shit we saw defending him during the impeachment. “He didn’t literally say the words quid pro quo so you can’t claim that’s what he was doing”.
Smart people do not think this way. They don’t need actions to have corresponding exposition to figure out what is going on
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Which would you rather have: more rapes, or more kids kicked out of school for false allegations?
If this is a hard question, then I hope you gain experiences that make it easier to decide. Learning is important.
Plus, the false allegation thing is kinda bunk. If it happens, then sue them for libel. Since there isn’t a lot of that going on, I think it’s less of an issue than, ya know, rape.
Anecdotally, I know four rape victims that didn’t come forward. I know zero men who were falsely accused. I’m sure I’m not special in this regard.
It’s a false dichotomy. There are other ways to prevent rape at schools without throwing away due process.
Yes, because common students routinely have 10s of thousands of $ to pay for lawyers to probably not even get back the same amount.
So you are saying throwing away due process did not even work to make them come forward in the first place, since this was repealed just now.
If there were other ways to prevent rape, they would be there already. So you’re clearly wrong.
I agree we should provide free law services to people without money so they can get justice just like the rich people. Let’s do that. And we can do that without endangering young girls.
There is no due process being thrown away. These people aren’t going to jail. They’re being kicked out of school. A school can kick out a child for literally anything that isn’t a protected class. Rape allegations seems like a pretty good reason to kick someone out, especially compared to some other reasons people have been kicked out, like protesting.
Ah, my bad. I did not realize a good government healthcare is not possible because it is not already there.
Also a shame safer roads are impossible to build, otherwise they already would have. Or walkable cities. Mass transit.
Yeah, something good not already existing clearly means it is not possible. I will give up any attempt to improve anything at once. /s
Oh, my apologies. Did not know anything that does not put you in jail does not deserve due process. You must be so angry at Luigi and his fans since clearly rejecting insurance claims is also not putting you in jail and does not deserve any due process. It is just financial ruin, same as having student loans without a degree. Not an issue at all. /s
Ah yes, the “things are already bad so we should make them worse” argument. Also, its not even really true.
Seriously, what the fuck are these arguments of yours? You can’t possibly believe them yourself. Are you just trying to retroactively come up with arguments for a policy you just insist on believing because the guy who said it had (D) after their name? Just making up arguments for others, without actually using them to shape your own opinions?
Ok, so you agree there aren’t things in place to prevent rape. Only that there could one day be. Great. Go do that. The lack of its current existence makes it irrelevant to the conversation. That’s my point.
Due process is very very clearly a legal term. Private institutions aren’t required to follow anything like it. You need to differentiate between what IS and what you wish were the case.
I don’t care who made the rule. Fuck the Democrats. I care that women who are raped are being silenced. It’s literally that simple.
Go elect me for office and I will. Until then, there is nothing I can do for you.
What the fuck do you think we are talking about this whole fucking time? Title IX mandates a process schools have to follow. Trumps changes bring it closer to what is considered a due process. The whole fucking conversation is about whether that is a good thing.
It literally IS. You are the one seething that men are now actually granted reasonable due process protections.
How the fuck are they being silenced? It literally requires the opposite, that they testify properly.
I honestly can’t make you understand this.
Just because a law says you have to do something doesn’t make it due process. Registering your car isn’t due process. You don’t get due process unless you’re in court. This isn’t that. There is no court. A “hearing” of school officials isn’t due process. There’s no sentencing. There’s no lawyers. There’s no guilty or not guilty. There’s a bunch of school admins doing a dance and then picking if you get kicked out.
How are they being silenced? Because anytime you make something harder, more embarrassing, or riskier, people won’t do it. This is also not hard to understand.
Again, I can hear it in your words and tone. You WANT this to be true. You want women to be brave enough to always stand up for themselves. You WANT a fair process with legal style standards to impose true justice based on facts. This isn’t that. It doesn’t get you closer to that. All it does it shut women up by making it harder for them to do the right thing.