• RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Real communism has never really existed. They’re just authoritarian dictatorships that hoard power and wealth at the top while paying lip service to whatever variant of social policy they offer the masses. The people are never actually given the power over the State or control of production.

        • OBJECTION!
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          Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela’s African National Congress in South Africa.

          Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for “the poor little children who got fed under communism” (his words).

          Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as “Soviet apologists” and “Stalinists,” even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.

          The upheavals in Eastern Europe did not constitute a defeat for socialism because socialism never existed in those countries, according to some U.S. leftists. They say that the communist states offered nothing more than bureaucratic, one-party “state capitalism” or some such thing. Whether we call the former communist countries “socialist” is a matter of definition. Suffice it to say, they constituted something different from what existed in the profit-driven capitalist world—as the capitalists themselves were not slow to recognize.

          First, in communist countries there was less economic inequality than under capitalism. The perks enjoyed by party and government elites were modest by corporate CEO standards in the West, as were their personal incomes and life styles. Soviet leaders like Yuri Andropov and Leonid Brezhnev lived not in lavishly appointed mansions like the White House, but in relatively large apartments in a housing project near the Kremlin set aside for government leaders. They had limousines at their disposal (like most other heads of state) and access to large dachas where they entertained visiting dignitaries. But they had none of the immense personal wealth that most U.S. leaders possess.

          The “lavish life” enjoyed by East Germany’s party leaders, as widely publicized in the U.S. press, included a $725 yearly allowance in hard currency, and housing in an exclusive settlement on the outskirts of Berlin that sported a sauna, an indoor pool, and a fitness center shared by all the residents. They also could shop in stores that carried Western goods such as bananas, jeans, and Japanese electronics. The U.S. press never pointed out that ordinary East Germans had access to public pools and gyms and could buy jeans and electronics (though usually not of the imported variety). Nor was the “lavish” consumption enjoyed by East German leaders contrasted to the truly opulent life style enjoyed by the Western plutocracy.

          Second, in communist countries, productive forces were not organized for capital gain and private enrichment; public ownership of the means of production supplanted private ownership. Individuals could not hire other people and accumulate great personal wealth from their labor. Again, compared to Western standards, differences in earnings and savings among the populace were generally modest. The income spread between highest and lowest earners in the Soviet Union was about five to one. In the United States, the spread in yearly income between the top multibillionaires and the working poor is more like 10,000 to 1.

          Third, priority was placed on human services. Though life under communism left a lot to be desired and the services themselves were rarely the best, communist countries did guarantee their citizens some minimal standard of economic survival and security, including guaranteed education, employment, housing, and medical assistance.

          Fourth, communist countries did not pursue the capital penetration of other countries. Lacking a profit motive as their motor force and therefore having no need to constantly find new investment opportunities, they did not expropriate the lands, labor, markets, and natural resources of weaker nations, that is, they did not practice economic imperialism. The Soviet Union conducted trade and aid relations on terms that generally were favorable to the Eastern European nations and Mongolia, Cuba, and India.

          All of the above were organizing principles for every communist system to one degree or another. None of the above apply to free- market countries like Honduras, Guatemala, Thailand, South Korea, Chile, Indonesia, Zaire, Germany, or the United States.

          But a real socialism, it is argued, would be controlled by the workers themselves through direct participation instead of being run by Leninists, Stalinists, Castroites, or other ill-willed, power-hungry, bureaucratic cabals of evil men who betray revolutions.

          Unfortunately, this “pure socialism” view is ahistorical and nonfalsifiable; it cannot be tested against the actualities of history. It compares an ideal against an imperfect reality, and the reality comes off a poor second. It imagines what socialism would be like in a world far better than this one, where no strong state structure or security force is required, where none of the value produced by workers needs to be expropriated to rebuild society and defend it from invasion and internal sabotage.

          The pure socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

          • Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds
          • rockerface 🇺🇦@lemm.ee
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            6 days ago

            Counterpoint: my parents and grandparents lived in the Soviet Union, and I now live in Ukraine, with many of Soviet systems still fresh in memory, if not in place. Priority was not placed in the human service, as much as you want to pretend through rose tinted glasses. The rest of your quote is generalisation of my words that I never said.

            Update: oh wait, the fourth point is also blatantly untrue. Soviets literally swallowed a whole host of countries that happened to be occupied by Russian Empire at the time of revolution. Of course they wouldn’t need to invade them: the job was already done for them.

              • cqst [she/her]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                6 days ago

                The USSR had a democracy and many democratic elections. It was just not a liberal democracy. The USSR had a welfare state, and so was a social democracy.

                  • inv3r5ion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    6 days ago

                    Ok, now look at america and think really critically about what you just said.

                    Sure, there is a red party and a blue party. Sure, they have some differences socially. But economically and foreign policy wise they are the same. Pro capitalist, pro imperialist, pro fascist, pro genocide, pro bombing the shit out of anyone who has natural resources they need for their donors, American business. Or regime changing them.

                    They’re the same fucking party once you remove the culture war bullshit.

                  • cqst [she/her]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                    6 days ago

                    Election where you can only vote for one party isn’t particularly democratic.

                    Why not? You vote. Parties are just an abstraction.

                    Neither is one with two parties, for that matter.

                    The more parties it has the more democratic it is? Please. Even in countries with advanced proportional representation schemes, you instead just get huge party alliances based on regionalism, and guess what, they remain capitalist bourgeoisie dictatorships.

                    The USSR was democratic, it was a capitalist democracy, like well, all modern democracies. Just because it came in a different form doesn’t make it somehow not democratic.

                  • BrainInABox
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                    6 days ago

                    Yes, the only truly democratic elections are the ones that get the outcomes western liberals demand of them.

      • BrainInABox
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        6 days ago

        And it never will exist, because politically inert western liberals who have declared themselves the true arbiters of “real communism” will reflexively disqualify anything western propaganda tells them to.

          • BrainInABox
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            6 days ago

            No, I’m agreeing with you, only Western liberals who get their knowledge from Wikipedia are actually communists: the rest are just devious, evil, foreign authoritarians who are merely pretending in other to deceive the true protagonists of history: western liberals.

      • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
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        6 days ago

        Of course, there are no true communists.

        The first step in a successful revolution is eliminating all competing revolutionaries.

    • ERROR: Earth.exe has crashed@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      6 days ago

      Also use the term “Democratic Socialism” to contrast with the other Communist/Socialist ideologies that involves Vanguardism. People hear “Socialism” and think “Big Bad Dictator”, I’m like bruh, Socialism and Democracy isn’t mutually exclusive, its totally compatible.

    • rhombus@sh.itjust.works
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      6 days ago

      That’s pretty much what Engels called it. He argued it was a step in dismantling capitalism, similar to Lenin.

      State ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but it contains within itself the formal means, the key to the solution.

      So sure, maybe they were socialist in intent, but vanguardism is really just state capitalism until power is decentralized.

    • apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      The external forces in the west via war, opposition, and sanctions, had a part to play in this Soviet contradiction.

      • rockerface 🇺🇦@lemm.ee
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        6 days ago

        I’m not sure how you think quoting words that were written before Soviets’ massive failure to build anything described in them would help your argument, but sure

        • BrainInABox
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          6 days ago

          Lol, the sheer irony of a self proclaimed anarchist saying that the Soviet were a “massive failure to build anything”.

          Maybe you should actually read what I linked. Ohhh sorry, I forgot, anarchists think reading is authoritarian.