I need anyone involved with these write “I will not enable a greater evil through my inaction” 69 times on a chalkboard
What you’ve done is basically said “I wanted steak for dinner, and got chicken, so I just forced everyone to snort draino instead!”
You saved Palestine 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
People like you are the reason the democratic party refuses to learn anything from this loss, and will continue to do whatever their donors want at the cost of the will of the voters. Because they know that no matter how bad they get, they’ll alwats have scared little followers waiting around to vote for them unconditionally and shame anyone who tries to use what little leverage they had to make a stand. If enough people had spoken up in the year before the election then maybe you could have saved Palestine. And stopped Trump from getting in. But you got played and still dont realize, and the Democratic leadership doesn’t even care that they lost because they know Trump will make them look good again, and they get to launder another Billion dollars in 4 years time.
I don’t really see how the Uncommitted movement could have done anything differently. They had pretty simple demands: let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, meet with families of Palestinians, meet with our leadership. The Harris campaign ignored all of those requests, so in the end, they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
Endorsing her just wasn’t an option, given that she did nothing to meet them halfway. If your spouse is abusive, and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,” then you have to leave them if their behavior doesn’t change. Otherwise, you are just inviting more abuse. If you tell a politician, “These are the minimum actions you must take to earn our endorsement,” and they ignore you, you can’t endorse them anyway. Otherwise, you’re announcing your demands carry no weight.
The Abandon Harris (previously Abandon Biden) movement was more hard-line, and the Democrats were clearly too centrist and hawkish to meet their demands for an immediate arms embargo But the Uncommitted movement offered reasonable steps that the Harris campaign could have taken to win over Arab Americans, and she flat out ignored them. She is clearly to blame for not taking that offramp.
You put this so much better than I ever could have. Thank you for this.
No. And fuck you for taking that position. That Uncommitted position doesn’t ‘punish’ Harris, it simply ensures that a demagogue would be elected. AND just coincidentally, the early actions of that demagogue signals that Palestine simply won’t exist in any significant fashion in a few years.
The direct result of your holier-than-thou’ position is that Palestine gets fucked 10 times harder. Good job asshole.
Well, A) I’m describing the position Uncommitted was in, not giving my own. B) Who the hell are you quoting when you say, “punish?” That word doesn’t appear in my comment, and I definitely didn’t say that the Uncommitted leaders were trying to punish anyone, so what the fuck are you talking about? Are you actually arguing with me, or someone you made up in your head? C) Your entitled, sneering attitude is indicative of why Harris lost; telling Palestinian that Harris won’t oppose the genocide, but vote for her anyway or else; telling teamsters she didn’t need them to win; it turns out that was a losing strategy, huh?
By the way, I actually voted for Harris, despite her floundering, directionless campaign, but since I’m not a complete idiot, I want to understand people who didn’t. Blaming other people for Harris’s loss might feel nice, but internet temper tantrums don’t win elections.
Anyway, I could also call you an asshole and tell you to get fucked, but honestly, I’d rather you work on your reading comprehension. You don’t seem to have understood (or at least engaged with) anything I said besides, “Uncommitted didn’t endorse Harris.” Honestly, based on your comment, I’m not even sure you understand what the Uncommitted movement was.
I will apologise for my aggressive response. I conflated your position with direct support for the underlying. That was a mistake and I apologize.
Re the ‘punish’ comment, I remain completely disgusted with Uncommitted due to their stated goals ’ a protest campaign aimed mainly to pressure Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to achieve a ceasefire in the Israel–Hamas war and impose an arms embargo on Israel’
No such political pressure towards the Trump campaign? I recognize that he isn’t the sitting president but even a casual observer can see that his presidency would likely be significantly worse for Palestine.
However, re third party or ‘none of the above’ voters, including any teamsters that did not vote for Harris because she didn’t beg, fuck em. I believe their fence sitting (at least partially) enabled this right wing smorgasbord.
There was also pressure on the Trump campaign too. And what did he do? Went to Dearborn and met with Arab-American leaders and lied about how he wants peace. Biden/Harris couldn’t even do that minimum. Biden detoured his campaign to avoid the area completely. Harris got a lot of the community back on board but then couldn’t bring herself to say that she would have done a single thing differently than Biden. She couldn’t even walk back Biden’s anti-Palestinian comments.
And you seem to miss the reason that the Arab and Muslim-American communities struggled this year; it’s the Trolley problem. You’re asking me to vote for someone who is actively helping murder people in your community, when asked about it he has no remorse and said he would do it all again and not even claim he will do better next time, and I’d better fall in line because the other person is worse. You’re asking me to actively vote to kill people in my community and threatening me with more deaths if I don’t. Can you see why this is such an unappealing choice? Obama killed innocent people in drone strikes but he at least tried to claim it was an accident and was doing better and supported us against the active bigots in the other party trying to ban our existence. Biden stubbornly ignored a solid YEAR of pressure, falsely promised he heard us after the primaries and then refused to hear anyone out. Well he lost by an even greater margin than our community and he has only himself to blame. He’s not even wallowing, he’s reportedly complaining that he could have beaten Trump if that awful Pelosi didn’t real his internal polling and make him stand aside.
Well, I get what you’re saying, but I think Harris’ failure to negotiate with these groups is entirely on her. The Uncommitted movement’s goals were very lofty, but their demands were small. They wanted State Rep. Ruwa Romman to give a speech at the DNC, and a leaked draft showed it was a very mild speech that didn’t even condemn Israel. It just called for an end to the war. After the DNC declined, they asked her to meet with families who’d lost loved ones in Gaza, and she ignored the request. Finally, they gave her until September 15th to hold a meeting with them, and she again ignored them, so they decided not to endorse her.
The Uncommitted movement didn’t create the problems Harris had with the Muslim community; Biden’s handling of Gaza did that. The Uncommitted movement just took that anger, organized it, and put it towards productive action. That’s what activist leaders are supposed to do. The Uncommitted leadership was clearly looking for any gesture towards the Palestinian community that they could take to their supporters, and Harris just wouldn’t do it. You have to do something to win an activist groups’ support. Endorsing her after she snubbed them wouldn’t have convinced the Uncommitted members to vote for Harris, if would have convinced them their leaders were pushovers.
And that sentiment, writ across the country, handed the election on a platter to the Republican party. Who will be arguably worse for Palestine that the Democrats.
Ultimately none of the Uncommitted arguments are wrong - I would go so far to say they are reasonable - but they presume that the alternative is better than the incumbent. Which I believe is manifestly misplaced in the 2024 election. All well and good to withhold support because you’ve been ignored, but this is a prime example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Anyway. I respect that you’re clarifying and I appreciate that.
No, they presumed Harris would be reasonable and make concessions to the will of the people. The fact that she didnt isnt on the people, its on her. She did nothing but try to appeal to the center-right which clearly didnt work, but she didn’t learn andbthe Democratic party still isnt gonna learn. Nobody assumes Trump is better either, they just refused to cave to the Democrat’s clear manipulation of the situation and disdain for the average person.
People like you seem to think protesting against genocide is a bigger problem than sending billions in support of genocide. I can’t tell if it’s a matter of diehard party support above all else or simple delusion.
Just acknowledge that we were always getting one of two options. This isn’t confusing in the slightest.
To extend the analogy used in the comment starting this thread, it’s like leaving your abusive partner to live with a more abusive partner.
Why the ever loving fuck would you choose the worse option?
The choices were genocide or genocide. Apparently some privileged people here haven’t noticed that the genocide has already been getting worse and worse for over a year now.
Maybe electing someone unlikely to restrain them at all while simultaneously making shit worse in the US and Ukraine, doing a 180 on what little climate progress we’ve made, making abortion illegal nationwide, and reducing/ending social security will help.
There’s people in my community who lost relatives in Gaza. I’ve been to their funerals. Their families will tell you, “Trump didn’t kill my family, Biden did.” Please tell me how I could convince them to put that aside and vote for Biden anyway. We tried, despite Biden’s speeches on the topic making it harder and harder since he decided to twist that knife in deeper and deeper by giving such helpful speeches saying that he doesn’t trust Palestinians or that Israel has not committed any war crimes.
In the end, Harris got far more votes in my community than Trump did, but it didn’t make any difference since Trump won by a margin bigger than all the voters in my community.
Biden wasn’t restraining israel at all and Harris kept talking about how she’d be a continuation of Biden. Now you’re bringing in a bunch of other issues that aren’t what these voters are focused on. Turns out you have to appeal to voters to get their votes.
You seem to be under the impression that all discussions between the two countries happened in public. Do I have that right?
A perfect analogy where you argue to stay with abusive partner and you are actually a horrible person if you don’t want to stay with your abusive partner. The idea that your partner stops being abusive is also so absurd that it’s out of the question.
As I said in the other comment you left, your interpretation of the analogy makes no sense. Your point would be valid if I were discussing Arab and Muslim voters who voted for Trump, but I’m not; I’m discussing the Uncommitted movement, who endorsed neither candidate.
Oh they only didn’t know whether they wanted to better or worse option. Still pretty goddamn stupid.
Yeah, also no, and it you’d actually read the original comment, you’d know that. As I said:
they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
They knew Trump was worse, they didn’t want Trump to win, but they needed Harris to make a gesture towards the Arab community before they could endorse her; she didn’t, so they didn’t. She didn’t negotiate to get their endorsement, so she didn’t get their endorsement. It’s very funny that you’re acting like everyone else is an idiot yet you still don’t understand this.
If you live with an abusive spouse, but the house is literally build in an island surrounded by lava, A. Maybe your bargaining position is not that good.
B. Maybe, even if it’s super shitty to live with the abusive, its still better that swim in lava, so you bite the bullet and wait the lava cool down
Yeah, except the Uncommitted leadership didn’t tell their people to, “swim in lava,” (if I’m following this tortured extension of the metaphor correctly). As I said, they opposed Trump, and even warned their supporters that voting third-party would help him, they just didn’t endorse Harris because of her failure to make any of the very small concessions they asked for. She put them in a position where, as political leaders, there was no way they could endorse her without completely destroying their own credibility. If she needed their endorsement that badly, then it sounds like her bargaining position wasn’t that good.
and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,”
Finish the analogy to better fit this issue. You leave your partner for a MORE abusive partner. Why?
…except they didn’t do that. The Uncommitted movement didn’t leave her for Trump; they didn’t endorse Trump and actively warned their members not to vote third-party because it would help him. They just followed through with their threat to withhold their endorsement. If she needed their help that badly, she should have done something to win that endorsement.
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
He’s going to “end it” by rushing it to its conclusion you morons! Holy fuck! 🤦♂️
It kind of proves the point that the DNC should have listened to them instead of plugging their ears and walking past them.
Harris didn’t even have to have any plans, but listening was too hard for them. Will they learn from it or blame others? Let’s find out.
It rather proves how flawed the concept of democracy is. People can’t be expected to make rational decisions. This is why candidates fill their campaigns with lies and cheap rhetoric. Because morons will believe it. Sure we’ll all complain later about how “politicians always lie” but the people wanted that anyway.
Trump didn’t listen to them, and he won their vote. So if anything, this proves they wanted someone more like Trump.
Trump did NOT win their vote. Way more Arabs and Muslims voted for Harris than Trump; CAIR survey reports Trump only got maybe 10% of the vote. Don’t blame us for the Harris campaign’s incredible screwups when they were gifted a reset from Biden and decided to repeat the same failure.
Trump did though. Not advocating for his policies but his campaign interacted with Arab voters a lot more than Harris’s.
Harris/Walz visited Wayne County 12 times. Plus another 3 visits by Biden.
Trump/Vance only visited 8 times.
False. Biden infamously detoured his campaign stops in Michigan this year so he could avoid neighborhoods with Arab-American communities. He visited MICHIGAN often but avoided people and avoided meeting with community leaders. Trump, on the other hand, went to Dearborn and Hamtramack and met the mayor and told a bunch of lies about how he loves the community and wants to help them. The same mayor who Biden snubbed.
Harris had an open opportunity to wipe the slate clean, when she got the nomination the community was clamoring to meet and endorse her and her campaign said no to all of them. Delegates to the DNC wanted to endorse her publicly in hopes of getting their voters to vote for her and her campaign refused to let them do so. Even Trump let someone speak at the RNC. The Biden and Harris campaign created their own problem.
So you are saying that trump connected with Muslim votes more than Harris and Trump visited them even less? So trump had less opportunities to connect to these voters and (pretend to) listen to them. Harris couldn’t outperform trump with the quality of visits?
I agree that Harris and the DNC do have lessons to learn but I don’t think they will. They will continue to blame the voters that they won’t listen to.
Exactly. Trump connected with them better despite fewer visits.
The lesson is that those voters want someone like Trump.
Close. The lesson is voters want to be listened to. You don’t even have to do anything after that. Voters will forget by the next election.
Harris didn’t want to listen, she wanted to go there and tell voters she is better than trump. I agree with that message, but I wasn’t in the audience. Muslims were there. They weren’t listened to at all by Harris. Trump at least said “fine I’ll end the war.” That proves he was listening. Being listened to and heard is enough for most people to go along with you, at least temporarily. Which is what trump needed and worked toward.
As opposed to dragging it out to the same exact conclusion?
Democrats have made it very clear that they’re okay with the final solution as long as its spread out on a long enough timescale
This is the true meaning of incrementalism.
Elabed decided not to vote at the top of the ticket this year and focused instead on downballot races.
Elabed said she feels crushed by the reality of four years of the Trump administration’s policies toward Israel
😑
at the end of the day Democrats had their check writers to think about which is why they intentionally lost
Harris consistently had wins handed to her on gold platters and Harris repeatedly stuck her nose up at the platters
Democrats are not the party of the people or progressives but just Republicans with different coat colors on getting checks from the same places
Is your username a back-formation of Verdana, the font?
no just verdant
BOOoooOoOoTh SiIIiiiIidEs!!!1
You have two choices for ship’s captain.
One wants to paint the interior a color you hate. Like, it’s the worst color you’ve ever seen. And she won’t even listen to you about changing it.
The other wants to run the ship into an iceberg.
Hope you brought a life jacket.
You don’t seem to understand WHY the Trolley problem is so difficult. It’s not a simple matter of “one side is quantitatively better” so you pick it. It means you are actively making the choice to harm people even if you think it’s better in the long run. If you don’t see why people found this choice difficult (and it’s universally agreed upon that one choice is better than the other) then you’re blind to the problem and haven’t actually spoken to voters. Talking down to people that they only can make one choice and that they’re stupid for not making it is not helpful and sets you up for failure next time too.
You forgot to mention that the current captain is shooting one POC person a day while it heads into an iceberg.
And the first choice for new captain is the current first mate who by all accounts will not change course, and keeps promising to uphold the shoot a POC person a day policy. And you’re acting surprised they’re not getting popular support from that group.
I’m not surprised. People are pretty stupid, little shocks me these days.
Lol ya, but that’s been done on purpose. They’ve been underfunding public institutions, including education, for decades, and trying to privatize it. They have been making university seem like it’s only purpose is as a job-training center instead of also opening your mind and improving critical thinking while making it more expensive. They’ve been spewing propaganda at us the whole time through billionaire-funded news and media while slowly undercutting public broadcasting. It’s all been pretty successful apparently.
That analogy is very flawed and, within the context of Arab voters, crosses the realm of “insensitive” and well into “fucking stupid” territory.
I’ll start with the “very flawed” part. Harris didn’t promise to “paint the interior an ugly color”, she promised to sit and watch while the ship slowly sunk and maybe open a few small holes. She promised stagnation and yet more rightward shifting to people who are being driven closer and closer to poverty every day. Sure, she was better than Trump, but she still had massive policy and attitude flaws that can’t be called “painting the interior a bad color”.
Now for the “fucking stupid” part: Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine. She promised that and still expected—or thought she could do without—Arab votes. Votes from people who were losing loved ones and attending funerals because of the policy she completely unapologetically promised to continue. Comparing killing her voters’ families to “painting the ship a bad color” is, as I said above, fucking stupid.
That analogy is very flawed
two choices
Nope. Binary race. No other contender has a chance.
promised to sit and watch
Binary race. Pick between the two.
she was better than Trump
Ah! So you get it.
Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine
Ah! So between the two, neither offers a better plan for meddling in another country’s politics. It’s a tough thing when neither choice for America happens to support that one other country. It’s also then not a discerning factor then, in a binary race, when determining the best of two options.
If you don’t choose, you need to accept what comes down to a coin flip.
Binary race. Pick between the two.
I’m sure that’s what you want, but the Trolley problem actually does offer a third choice. And a significant number of people made that choice, so we could sleep at night. I went to funerals of Gazans killed by Israeli massacres. Do you think I could vote to kill more, based solely on hope against all evidence that it could be better? Harris refused to commit to even lightly pressuring Israel, to recognizing the state of Palestine, to stop blocking votes for Palestinian statehood, to even investigate war crimes. Everyone in north Gaza will be dead before inauguration; that’s on Biden/Harris not Trump. Talking to Palestinians, they saw no difference between Biden and Trump; both armed Israel and blocked each and every UN vote to help Palestinians. Trump cut all refugee aid to Palestinians and Biden continued it. To them, Biden and Trump are just shades apart in terms of actual policy regardless of Trump’s hateful speeches. Biden even fought his own party and majority public opinion to help Israel more and increase weapons shipments without preconditions.
This is what blew my mind. I thought this was all obvious, and that people understood there was simply no pro-Palestine option on the table.
Sometimes the available options aren’t what you want, but I also think it better to make non-emotional decisions about candidates where possible.
People were making this argument every day before the election and it didn’t work.
Trump was always worse. But Harris still had to win people’s votes. If this argument worked we would have had Hilary in 2016.
You need to actually have something to offer beyond the other side being worse.
These people are seriously throwing a tantrum because Arab voters didn’t vote for their friends and family to be murdered. This is insane.
Allowing Trump to win was “fucking stupid” for anyone that actually cares about this genocide. Accelerating everything for innocent people from the comfort of your western home - all that matters is your virtue signaling.
If this was a race (which it might me given the state of AI and mass surveillance) you would all immediately smash into a wall thinking the shortest distance is fastest ignoring the reality of the track in front of you. Geopolitics is real.
If I hear this crap one more time I’m going to make the news.
What, you’re going to murder someone in an act of pointless violence? Great call.
Maybe you hear it all the time because it’s the reality. You can just bury your head in the sand harder I guess, that’s an option.
You already have. Mostly in the “people regret their obviously stupid decision” category.
This is America. I’m dumbfounded by the decision making skills we have, collectively.
Pollution, lack of education funding, lots of police, lots of jobs with below living wages, no healthcare
All adds up to what we have now
And again not the voters’ fault we got got sold out for the check writers
