Yeah, both sides amiright?
Thanks, Uncommitted Assholes.
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
They think they get to wipe their hands of it because they “didn’t participate”, refusing to concede that said choice still counts as their participation. Through ignorance, cruelty, and/or privilege, they’ll blame everyone else for the state of the world while refusing to do their part.
Howard Zinn - you can’t be neutral on a moving train. The Enlightened Centrists ™ always look like suuuuuch dipshits when they talk about “both sides”.
Howard Zinn would not support the genocide of Palestinians nor voting for genociders, nor is withholding a vote neutrality. Zinn was forcefully against the War on Vietnam before it was acceptable in liberal academic circkes and drew a hard line on it.
Have you read his books?
I have indeed read his books. I doubt he would have welcomed the idea of putting donvict in office because something something “Genocide Joe”.
“bUt i VoTeD iNdEpEnDaNt”
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
There is a certain set of dumbasses that will say this kind of thing no matter what.
Feeling very good about my decision, yes.
Dirtier than Trump supporters
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
Yes.
Trump is an irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. That fact does not make me wish that I had voted for a different irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. The fact that Trump is horrible was never in dispute.
So Harris = Trump? Equal equal?
I’ll be there devil’s advocate here and say that this whole shit show started under Biden and Harris
Oh, I didn’t say that. Not all irredeemably evil genocidal psychopaths who deserve eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell are exactly as bad.
But it means your vote could have helped bring the victory to someone less genocidal.
I know Harris is not a pro-Palestine person, but she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters. At the very least she doesn’t support the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, unlike Trump, who couldn’t give less of a shit about Palestinians and is happy if Israel leveled them down
P.S. I don’t want to make you feel guilty. The political system the US people live in is a shit. I’m just disappointed that maybe she could have had a chance of winning if people didn’t abstain.
she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters.
No, she absolutely isn’t.
Politicians are never more receptive to voters’ concerns than just before an election. Once they have people’s votes, they tend to shift further in the direction of interests groups and the establishment. Like, for example, on the campaign trail, Obama promised to end mass surveillance and protect whistleblowers, but once he was in office, he did the opposite. Harris on the campaign trail, after the widespread campus protests, was the most pro-Palestine she would ever be, which is to say not even the slightest bit and completely unconditionally supportive of material aid to Israel.
It used to be that politicians would promise to do good things on the campaign trail, and then usually not follow through. But now they don’t even have to promise anything, because people will just project whatever views and values they hold onto whichever candidate they like regardless of anything they say or do.
Harris and Biden are unconditionally supportive of everything Israel does. Short of direct involvement of the US military, it’s not really possible for Trump to be meaningfully worse than that.
Okay I understand your point. Unfortunately Palestinians are not the only targeted ones. We have
- LGBTQ people
- Atheists and non-Christians
- Leftists and pro-democracy people. Non-fascists in general
- Scientists
- Ukrainians
- Refugees and immigrants
Harris said and has showed to support them. Trump vowed to destroy all of them.
I voted Uncommitted in the primary so that Biden and the Democrats would get a count of how many people took the issue seriously. Primaries are a great place for message votes.
I also donated, volunteered, and voted for the Biden and then Harris campaigns, and didn’t hold back any support in public. I had no illusions about how bad it would (now will) be with Trump in the Whitehouse.
Wasn’t the uncommitted movement some 100,000 people strong?
Didn’t Harris lose by millions?
How would have the uncommitteds saved the election if their numbers represented a fraction of what Democrats needed?
Could a more likely explanation of this deplorable outcome be that Democrats did this to themselves by not rallying up their base enough to bring more people out to vote?
Stop blaming the American people.
Almost 100,000 in Michigan alone likely flipped the swing state.
Looks like Harris did lose by about 79,000 votes in Michigan.
Comparatively, about 44,500 went to Stein.
We don’t ultimately know how the uncommitted movement voted. If they were a monolith throughout, we’d expect 100k for Stein. If some abstained and some voted for Harris or Trump, that would’ve split the movement.
If all of Stein’s voters went to Harris, however, that wouldn’t have changed the outcome. Harris would have still been short ~34,400. So if you wanted to make the argument that the uncommitted movement was a voting block, then the entire ~44k block voting for Harris wouldn’t have changed the outcome.
Overall I don’t see Michigan outcomes changing my argument. If Dems were more persuasive, even if they lied about Gaza, they could have sweeped the nation. And even if the uncommitteds chose the lesser of two evils, Kamala still lost all other swing states. You can’t chock the outcomes of those states up to the uncommitteds, because the largest organizational presence was in Michigan.
They would have been enough to secure the swing states and win Harris the electorial college. Her campaign would have need to promote more progressive policies that addresses the material needs of Americans, instead of running to the right on issues, in order to also pick up the popular vote.
Stop blaming the American people
100% It’s entirely on the campaign to secure votes. That’s the entire job of the campaign. Blaming voters is an easy scapegoat that accomplishes nothing. And when it’s blaming marginalized groups, it seems like it’s only promoting hate against the people most vulnerable to the violence of fascism
It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. Those votes were entirely up for grabs. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with having the most lethal Military and unwaivering support for Israel a year into this genocide. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. If they took this election seriously, they would have been going after those votes. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
Quotes
Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally. Support for this genocide is bipartisan.
Can you also make a graph on how many luxury hotels Trump is going to build in Gaza after the rubble is cleared, thanks 👍
Do you think I’ve ever supported Trump or something when I’ve repeatedly called out his Hitlarian and Fascist rhetoric and policies?
Yes, because you helped him win.
By voting for Harris? By telling others to also vote for Harris even if anti-genocide is their single issue? By voicing my concern that the campaigns strategy of ignoring all the uncommitted voters in swing states and failing to break from Biden on one of his most unpopular positions was risking losing the election? How exactly did I help Trump win?
By promoting the lies that either Biden or Harris can single handedly stop the genocide, and that they’ve made no attempt to do so.
If we just ended our alliance with Israel, do you know what they would do next? They would likely ally themselves with Russia instead.
That would give Russia control over a port that facilitates a huge portion of commerce in the middle east. It would also give them control of a lot of tech companies, including Intel’s massive R&D campus, and they would have access to the iron dome, which would be a pretty big intelligence leak. Israel also has an extremely important spy network that western countries rely on, and suddenly they would start serving Russia instead.
It would also allow the rest of the middle east to “escape containment”, so to speak. Particularly Iran. As soon as that happens, where do you think their missiles will go next?
Oh, and the genocide of Palestinians would still continue.
Geopolitics is complicated, and Biden was walking a tightrope. He was at least placing limits on how US weapons could be used, and trying to negotiate a ceasefire. Trump will scrap all of that and encourage Israel to kill everyone in the region.
But you didn’t care about any of that. Your moral outrage prevented you from trying to figure out why things are the way they are, and you joined the choir of people who were trying to prevent anyone from voting for Harris. A choir that mostly consisted of Trump supporters who were just trying to promote anything that might hurt Harris’s chances of winning.
By promoting the lies that either Biden or Harris can single handedly stop the genocide, and that they’ve made no attempt to do so.
They haven’t. You can’t have a permanent ceasefire when the US is continually supplying military weapons unconditionally to the side committing the genocide.
He was at least placing limits on how US weapons could be used, and trying to negotiate a ceasefire
Only in rhetoric, not in policy. No limits were placed even after the 30 day deadline of Israel continuing to deny aid to a starving population. The same population Israel continually targets civilians, mostly women and children, and civilian infrastructure like hospitals and refugee camps.
Timeline: The Biden administration on Gaza, in its own words
One Year of Empty Rhetoric From the White House on Israel’s Wars
If we just ended our alliance with Israel, do you know what they would do next? They would likely ally themselves with Russia instead.
Reigning in Israel into a permanent ceasefire is not ‘ending our alliance’ it would only force Israel to abide by International Humanitarian Law for once and end the genocide and Apartheid. Nor would that mean they would Ally with Russia, which they aren’t even on great terms with. Peace is also in China’s best interest in order to increase trade with Middle East countries.
Geopolitically, Russia still benefits far more from peace than the current situation.
On Russia and the Middle East
But beyond Russia rekindling old ties and worrying about domestic extremism, the big shift in the Russian relationship with Israel is rooted in Moscow’s increasingly close bilateral security relationship with Iran. I don’t think we can emphasize this enough. This development puts the rest of us—the United States and Europe—in quite a predicament. Russia is now engaged with Iran in two different conflicts, Ukraine and Israel/Gaza. Obviously, this is in quite different ways, but the Russia/Iran relationship greatly complicates the situation in the Middle East, Israel, and Gaza, and the battlefield in Ukraine. Russia’s relationship with Iran—not just Zelenskyy’s Jewish heritage, or all the Russian speakers of Jewish Ukrainian heritage in Israel—as well as the U.S. role in support of both Ukraine and Israel start to draw the two sets of conflicts into the same geopolitical frame.
I think prior to October 7, the Russians were very interested in the idea of the Israelis having a breakthrough with Saudi Arabia that they could then capitalize on economically and politically. Putin may even think that he can still bounce back with Israel at some point when the dust settles in Gaza, although I doubt that. I heard a prominent Israeli at a recent event say that Russia has now moved itself into the enemy category with Israel after decades of relations improving. And Russia has also always had a somewhat complex and awkward relationship with Saudi Arabia, even though they’ve been recently touting that relationship—we saw Putin on a sort of semi-victory tour of the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia in early December last year.
In the context of energy relationships, where Saudi Arabia is so important, Russia has often not gone along with what OPEC+ and the Saudis have wanted in terms of committing to production cuts to bolster oil prices. Russia is always thinking about its own bottom line, and volume is often better for Moscow than just price. Putin is continually focused on trying to make sure that Russia’s energy revenues are not imperiled in any way—especially given Moscow’s loss of its dominant position in Europe’s energy markets after the invasion of Ukraine. And then there is Iran, and Saudi Arabia’s difficult relationship and regional rivalry with Tehran. This is one of the reasons why Putin went to the UAE and Saudi Arabia in December 2023, to cozy up to the Gulf Cooperation Council/leading Gulf states and Saudi Arabia to balance Russia’ closer security ties with Iran.
You can rationalize the US’s decision to fund and allow Israel to eradicate the entire people of Palestine all you want. It is unacceptable. It’s causing a rise in genuine antisemitism and islamophobia. I will do everything in my power to support Palestinian sovereignty and emancipation.
Western liberals live in a fog of thought-terminating clichés that allow them to support The Party regardless of what it does or stands for. One of those ckichés is thst if you disagree with them or don’t support their politicians, you are actually a sleeper agent of the “enemy” faction.
Calling you a Trump supporter isn’t the only variation on this. They do the same re: “Putler” if you criticize US policy tiwards Ukraine and various racist accusations if you are anything less than a sinophobe.
In fact there are already BlueAnon conspiracy comments in this comment section trying to call pro-Palestinian protesters a Russian op. Normally you’d see this kind of logic on your weird Uncke’s facebook page but through liberalism alk things are possible.
Thank you for voicing this opinion in this thread, and bringing the receipts.
A Gaza ceasefire would be impossible without Netanyahu agreeing to it. So that 6% swing’s based on a hypothetical that’d never happen, especially when Netanyahu was doing everything he could to help Trump. And, if Trump were the candidate of peace, why would that butcher do that?
Guess what then
Lie to the American people.
Lie like Obama did! And lie well. Tell the biggest lie. Because clearly that worked for Trump!
Democrats stared down the barrel of fascism this election, and didn’t even think to come off their high horse to score a victory.
I mean, they still lied plenty, they aren’t on a high horse for pretending to push a ceasefire while providing unconditional support for Israel.
They made a choice to stick by their pro-Israel donors and NatSec ghouls that want clear pro-Israel messaging.
Your take is absolutely idiotic.
How? What does blaming voters accomplish exactly?
If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then they would respond to public pressure. If the Democratic party is not and instead only beholden to Donor interests, then we all have a much bigger problem where the interests of the American public is not represented.
Harris became the candidate without winning a single primary, the only explicit democrstic mechanism in the party itself. She lost to Andrew Yang. She was selected behind closed doors by party insiders and donor input.
Dems have never been democratic, they are a capitalist party by and for the largest business owners and finance. They cannot be reformed. The most realistic electoral option is for them to die like the Whigs and be replaced, though even that will be highly limited by the outsized power capitalists have over the state.
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I have no clue what you’re trying to say here
Why would I expect people who care about ending the genocide to stop caring about that?
Yes, thank you for teaching the lesson that you should not support genocide.
Now we get to see who has learned from this snd who is going to double down despite losing.
the donors of the Democrats/Republicans are doing a good job keeping the citizens divided and pointing fingers at each other
Yeah, no.
After months of alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit, they don’t get to shirk themselves of this.
They were told this was going to happen. They didn’t want to listen.
But hey, they’ve gone from not complicit, to extremely complicit.
Your statement that we were not complicit before is just plain old lies.
I think you have the wrong we in that case
Democrats always have a scapegoat to explain the bad performance away too
Yeah, no. After months of alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit, they don’t get to shirk themselves of this.
I see, so you are going to let them have it by whining and nagging on anonymous forums? Is that how you will keep them from “shirking”?
alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit
For a guy who’s only alleged, he sure does support a lot of genocide.
Nothing alleged about Genocide Joe.
Any vote for Harris or trump was still a vote for the war crimes to continue. The American people never had a say on this issue.
And yet, this very article we’re commenting on is about war crimes getting worse.
Almost like when your options are “bad” or “worse” you shouldn’t vote for “worse.”
And yet, this very article we’re commenting on is about war crimes getting worse.
Except it isn’t because the US has been continually supolying the arms Israel needs to carry out this genocide and these supposed “restrictions” are a fig leaf.
Again, the Biden-Harris regime provides unconditional support to Israel and its genocide. Recycled clichés about lesser evils don’t apply.
That sounds like some extortion. Not exactly something I would want to champion or believe to be a viable political platform
Blinks
That… is nothing the fuck like extortion.
“Vote for me or I’ll release these pictures of you fucking your dog” is extortion.
“Vote for me because my opponent will make this issue you claim to care about worse” is not.
“Vote for me or my friend here will kill your dog” is the alleged scenario.
Though really the person making that threat is also saying they will kill your dog.
That sounds like some extortion.
Life gives us hard choices. Whining that they don’t perfectly suit your pristine moral absolutism doesn’t change that.
That reads like exactly how republicans describe democrats. Can you not see how far to the right you have strayed?
Oh, I’m sorry genocide isn’t a big enough issue for you, I hope you get a new set of morals soon, yours seems damaged.
Normalizing genocide is not a hard choice, it just confronted boilerplate Dem propaganda and any pretense of being a good person.
If you are intetested in doing real political work it will not be something as minor as a single vote for 99% Hitler vs. 98% Hitler.
There are differences in degree between Trump and the Democrats, and anyone who claims otherwise is malicious or ignorant. But stick to your binary thinking and reflect on what you’ve done to the rest of us by putting Trump back into power.
That’s true, there is a difference! While the genocide would receive material support either way, Democrats receive your support and silence while Republicans do not.
No. That’s not a thing.
It is, of course. Matginslization is created and maintained to suit ruling class interests, to ensure you blame the marginslized rather than the capitalist.
Why do you think immigrants are being scapegoated? Did they close the factories or fire the workers?
Don’t leave out the Harris campaign with the Cheneys and the DNC
Well, to all the folks arguing with me on how voting for Harris was bad because of Gaza: CONGRATULATIONS! You REALLY made a point there. The Palestinians had a chance under Harris. Instead of voting for a chance for the Palestinians, you did nothing or voted for genocide. You did it from the other side of the world, where you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
“A vOTe fOR hARriS iS a VoTE FoR gENociDe”
Fucking morons
Fucking Russians. Fixed it for you.
“BlUe MaGa”
Yes, we are seeing that in spades in this comment section.
After 13 months of genocide backed by your candidates, where you were all out here sharing false lesser evil logic and other thought-terminating clichés about how you need to tolerate genocide to win, well, your candidate lost. Your strategy failed. Really, the party’s strategy failed, as your political role relative to its decisions is someone who makes no demands and can be largely ignored.
Are you taking this time to reflect on how you were wrong? That maybe you shouldn’t support genocide or project a false pretense of political understanding when what’s underneath is really just right wing Democrat Reddit memes?
Nope, nothing is ever the fault of the party or its most dedicated soldiers. The party cannot fail, it can only be failed, right?
Blue MAGA.
It’s pretty obvious that the Gaza protesters were given disproportionate media coverage because Russia paid for it to be pushed as a wedge issue.
Even this article is just anti leftist propaganda.
The actual amount of people that protest voted was a non factor this election. The exact same ratios of Muslims, Jews, and young people voter the same this time as in 2020.
The turnout of Democratic voters was lower than previous elections. There are too many variables at play to claim anything definitively, but it’s safe to assume that the number of voters who abstained due to the issue was more than zero.
If a conclusion is going to be drawn about whether the whole genocide topic had a tangible effect on the outcome, it’s important to consider those as well as the protest votes.
I really want to see a credible analysis showing how many of those non-votes were due to abstentions versus voter-suppression mesaures such as electoral-roll purges, overcrowded polling stations, fake challenges at the polls, etc.
Most of it was white and hispanic older men staying home.
Those were the largest demographic shifts.
We live in a bigoted country that can not vote for a woman
For something like 30 years running, the real winner of the election was non-voters. When other countries have this level of boycott and the US doesn’t like them, they get called “regimes” in need of “democraticization”.
I believe there was real, grassroots protests, and the people who were there genuinely, were easily manipulated by those who were there maliciously into literally fighting for the opposite thing that they wanted.
It would be impressive if it weren’t so goddamn depressing.
Online, on the other hand, agents provocateur everywhere. Plus more useful idiots who are now the ones who will either be an adult and admit they fucked up, or double and triple down on their mistake in order to preserve their ego (somewhat understandably so, as they seem to actually give a shit about Palestinian lives and now have to live with the role they played in escalating the genocide).
And to be clear, I consider myself an ardent supporter of Palestine in the genocide Israel is perpetrating. Which is exactly why I did the one small thing in my power that could have possibly done something to reduce that damage and not escalate the genocide (btw, a lot of people here are going to find out that genocide ≠ genocide ≠ genocide. In the worst way possible). And that was to vote for Harris.
If you want to find out what’s coming, just pick up a history book for once. A couple weeks too late, but at least you’ll learn why you fucked up.
You cannot call yourself an ardent supporter of Palestine while speaking about pro-Palestinian protesters like they are aliens or well-meaning idiots manipulated by unspecified malevolent forces. Anyone that is ardently pro-Palestinisn is at the protests, organizing actions, and speaks as a member of the community, not separate from it.
Please take some time to ask yourself whether you have the experience and knowledge required to talk on this topic.
This genocide has been carried out with the necessary backinh of the Biden-Harris regime. Harris kept the same line of Biden.
It is just a basic reality, and no amount of namecalling will change that supporying Harris meant supporting genocide.
It’s not genocide if they aren’t people.
–Trump, Probably
The entire unhinged right wing has been declaring them UnPersons for decades. I remember in the 90s, possibly earlier, hearing wingers saying “Palestine is not even a country, it was made up by the libs/Muslims, using the term ‘Palestinian’ is talking nonsense”, and so on.
The Israelis have used that line since before 1948. Standard colonial cultural erasure.
Just to help illustrate.
“A land without a people for a people without a land” is an old Zionist settler colonial propaganda piece that is supported by Zionist liberals as well. This coincides with Israeli “culture”, which is a weird mix of vaguely European, vaguely Jewish-ish, and the appropriation of Levantine culture. For example, going around calling hummus and pita “Israeli foods”.
Given the stark difference in how Dems resoonded to the plight of Ukrainians vs. Palestinians, it’s clear that this is also the tacit Dem position and what upsets their voters is for it to be explicitly acknowledged.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
Doubtful: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/15/biden-israel-gaza-palestine
One mention of Harris to say she’s not taking over for Biden
Harris had the exact same line on Israel as Biden and is literally part of the Biden-Harris administration.
There is no reason to think Harris would’ve been any different than Biden on this issue. She repeatedly said she was in agreement with Biden on this, i don’t care if it was during an election people need more to go on than the hope that she really feels different inside
That’s cool because Trump stance was even more extreme, but since he’s saying insane things every minute, no one batted an eye. But Harris had to be perfect. How do you even reconcile what you say with the reality you have in front of you.
Trump said in no uncertain terms that he would back Israel, he’s confirming it today and you still spout that “both sides” inane shit.
What more do you need to admit that your point is bullshit.
With Harris, there was a sliver of hope that there could be change and with Trump it was sure that Israel would do whatever it wanted. You look at that shitty situation all around, and you still think Harris was the worst choice versus the openly fascist dictator?
There is no sane universe where you can defend that point of view, yet here we are.
Palestine is fucked, good luck Ukraine, and fuck any American that isn’t white, Christian and straight I guess. But hey, both sides, right?
I think many people felt that Harris was a failure, just as they felt Biden was a failure. And she didn’t have to be.
Don’t run a bad candidate if you wanna win. This is common sense. And if you try anyway and lose, don’t blame others for it.
Yeah, because Trump endlessly said they were failures and the corporate media unquestioningly repeated it.
Why do Democrats have to field the perfect candidate while Republicans can run anyone and still win?
It fucking sucks that the DNC fielded a mid candidate, but let’s not put all the blame on them. It seems like the threat of Trump wasn’t big enough for Democrat voters to get out and vote. The guy that said that he would retaliate against his political opponents and would be a dictator from day one.
You know that you can vote for a candidate and still demand better from them after the election, right?
At one point, Americans will have to stop taking disagreements personally and unite.
Why do Democrats have to field the perfect candidate
You mean a genocide supporter?
But Harris had to be perfect.
You’re lying again. No one asked for perfect. They asked for neutral instead of aiding far right wing terrorists. All she had to do was follow our existing laws and stop the shipments. Its not a lot.
The second that Harris breathed wrong, news were all over it, while Trump had the “what he said might put him in trouble” while spouting racist and/or fascist non-stop.
But now it’s futile. You got what you deserve.
as did you.
But Harris had to be perfect.
Your idea of perfect is to not be a genocide supporter?
Every fucking thing she said was scrutinized, analyzed and critiqued/mocked while Trump would say the heinous unhinged shit and no one batted an eye.
That’s cool, you got what you want now and Gaza is becoming Israel new beach front. I hope you meet a Palestinian that got family killed someday and tell them that you didn’t support a genocide supporter. That’ll make them feel funny inside.
Every fucking thing she said was scrutinized […]
You are saying this in response to people saying they wouldn’t tolerate genocide.
That’s cool, you got what you want now and Gaza is becoming Israel new beach front.
There have been no policy changes. This is your ghouls running the show, 13 months of unconditional support for genocide. If any part of “the electorate” owns this, it is yours. You did not step up and say, “no more, that is too far”.
Though of course the party does not care about you and they are thr ones making these policy decisions with donor input.
I hope you meet a Palestinian that got family killed someday and tell them that you didn’t support a genocide supporter.
I already know many Palestinians that have lost family. I organize with some of them, their views are my views on this. You clearly aren’t embedded in this community because you assume everyone else is just as detached.
That’ll make them feel funny inside.
Palestinians are not your rhetorical toy to play with when you run out of ways to handle your cognitive dissonance for having sold your soul to support someone that lost anyways. Please take some time to do self-criticism now that you have objective proof that you were not being strategic or smart about this, as you clearly gave up on being morally correct.
Yeah, but they’ve stuck to their guns, and now they can stand proud next to the bodies, knowing they never compromised on their moral integrity.
We are not the ones complicit in this genocide. That is, in fact, those supporting the people committing genocide.
Please remember this statement when we see what exactly the Trump admin does to stop the genocide.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
based on what data? You’re just making stuff up.
based on them trying to feel better about voting for genocide and losing. they got the worst of both worlds instead of doing the right thing and gathering support for a better party
The mighty democratic party ladies and gents, blaming their epic across-the-entire government, across every demographic loss on a tiny minority of voters they explicitely said they’d bomb —instead of owning the fact that they are out of touch with all of their voters who arent rich people.
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The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
No, they didn’t.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the night, buddy.
Right back atcha.
Well, to all the folks arguing with me on how voting for Harris was bad because of Gaza: CONGRATULATIONS! You REALLY made a point there.
Yes, I hope you can take this time to internalize a lesson: you should not support genocide or genociders. The candidate and strategy that you embraced was a gamble tbat you could support genocide and still win the election if you just recycled enough bad faith talking points at the people who consistently oppose genocide.
As you can see, you were wrong. And yet here you are trying to blame others rather than learn this lesson. Do some self-criticism instead. I hope you can forgive yourself for supporting genocide for a cynical loser like Harris.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
Harris, of the Biden-Harris regime, has had an identical line to Biden’s during this 13 months of US-backed genocide. Unconditional material support and some empty rhetoric trying to PR handle their base rather than change policy.
What do you imagine when you say, “had a chance”? Is it the current mass civilian bombing campaigns? Children burned alive? Mass starvation and malnutrition? Those are the things you’ve gone to bat for, that is the realized vision of the Biden-Harris regime.
you did nothing or voted for genocide
The people voting for genocidal candidates like Harris or Trump voted for genocode. That was something you seem to have done, but not I.
You did it from the other side of the world, where you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
You cannot make your support for a genocider into an anti-privilege clapback. Do some self-criticism because this is gross.
Yes, I hope you can take this time to internalize a lesson: you should not support genocide or genociders.
Sorry, what exactly is the lesson to be learned from this election, in which the candidate who more vocally supports the genocide won? As in, showing more support for the genociding party and demonstratively siding in all points with the genociders with not even rhetorical pushback, just pure endorsement of the genocide? Which lesson will analysing this election yield again?
Sorry, what exactly is the lesson to be learned from this election, in which the candidate who more vocally supports the genocide won?
If it must be fully spelled out, it is that you cannot rope people whose politics is premised on empathy into supporting genocide and you will lose unless you demand better. If you want to fight against the forces of reaction, you cannot triangulate towards them, you have to actually have a semi-principled political program, not one premised on tokenization and “vote for us or the other guy will kill you even more”.
You seem to be wrong. Donald Trump didn’t demand better and he didn’t lose. The more pro-genocide party objectively won.
people whose politics is premised on empathy
You must not have read this part. Republican politics don’t rely on empathy, but democratic policy supposedly does, thus less turnout for a less empathetic democratic candidate.
That’s a very narrow grouping you draw there. Because in that group you are describing, the democrats got the most votes bar none. Nobody in that narrow category got even got close.
Those are the things you’ve gone to bat for, that is the realized vision of the Biden-Harris regime.
There’s a difference between making the best of a bad situation and going to bat for it. Your choices were someone who there is a chance of reigning in Israel or someone that told them to do whatever they want with weapons we send. The latter is obviously a bad choice unless you agree with Israel.
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So what is your solution be since Gaza is so important to you? Do you want to be absolved of your voting decision?
Weird how repeatedly calling for an immediate cease fire and a two state solution in Israel = “genocide”.
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
“Monday’s meeting in Washington, D.C., comes one day after Harris called for an immediate, temporary cease-fire in Gaza to facilitate an exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners and detainees. Harris is expected to continue pressing Israel to pause the fighting and allow more humanitarian aid into Gaza.”
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
“Vice President Kamala Harris met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in private Thursday and followed it with a strikingly forceful call on his government to get a cease-fire deal done and ease the suffering of civilians in Gaza.”
“Vice President Kamala Harris reiterated her call for a ceasefire-for-hostage deal in Gaza while expressing sympathy for both Israelis and Palestinians affected by the conflict. Harris condemned the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on southern Israel but said “far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed” by Israel’s ongoing military offensive in Gaza.”
Do you get something out of mis-representing what she said and did? Or were you just not actually paying attention?
giving putin a free pass at ukraine will be after lunch, then?
He’s not sure, he’s still waiting on orders from Putin.
Let’s be real. The Zionists in charge are Nazis and there was never a path out of genocide in these elections.
It’s also part of the evangelical grifter prophecy that the Jews be in control of all of old Isreal before the apocalypse starts.
Trump will dismantle this country and the Christians will cheer it on as society circles the drain because the version of their book that was rewritten in the 70s says so.
It will at least be funny to see them all realize that the “rapture” probably already happened and they’re all still here XD
Trump will dismantle this country and the Christians will cheer it on as society circles the drain
These idiots should be disqualified for holding office, since at least some of them, and/or the people they represent, simply don’t think this world matters, but only their fictional eschatology.
It’s bananas when you actually talk to some of them. Weirdly, though, some of them are still preppers. Wait, I thought you will be one of the blessed chosen ones in the end times? WTF are they stockpiling MREs and thinking they’ll be hunting for deer with a bow and arrow or some shit…none of their plans - if you can call them that - make any fucking sense, but they want to rule so that they can drag more advanced people, cultures, and societies down with them into their lunacy and their absolute literal hellscape.
The Rapture happened, three Quakers, a Unitarian and a radical Catholic nun disappeared mysteriously, otherwise business as usual.
Let’s be discerning: there was the potential for a better path out of this, but people decided on the definitely-worst-case-for-everything option on this binary choice, to ensure everyone suffers as much as possible in every situation, most assuredly during the belligerent invasion by Israel.
It was explained over and over; you need more time?
Harris just needed to stop the shipments to win the election and she wouldnt do it. She had a billion dollars of pollster and consultant data to tell her this. But its everyone elses fault she lost?
Lol, no. Gaza didn’t lose Harris the election. Sadly, America cares less for Gaza than they do for women’s health, that Trump is a traitor and a convicted felon, or actually understanding the economy. Eggs are expensive so Dems bad.
She wouldn’t have won the elections even if she did that. The pro-Zionist Democratic Party vote far exceeds the vote for evenhandedness or pro-Palestinian policies.
Around 70-80% of Democratic voters are against the US sending weapons to Israel. The people most committed to this are younger, they are the people that Dems rely on to have any kind of ground game. Accordingly, Dems had no ground game.
All Harris had to do was cynically oppose the genocide by threatening literally any kind of restrictions and to cynically claim to do something about high prices at the grocery store. In both cases she waffled.
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Let’s be discerning: there was the potential for a better path out of this
Harris, of the Biden-Harris regime that has been the necessary backer of this genocide for 13 months, did nothing different from Biden rhetorically and was an empty suit candidate that holds the party line. A party whose reoresentatives almost unanimously provide the material support needed for this genocide despite 70-80% of their constituents opposing it.
The “better path” you are referring to is literally unconditional support for genocide. I slmost said you were describing the better path, but you didn’t actually describe what it looks like. Presumably, you cannot.
but people decided on the definitely-worst-case-for-everything option on this binary choice, to ensure everyone suffers as much as possible in every situation, most assuredly during the belligerent invasion by Israel.
Who provided you with these choices? Have you considered looking at politics as more than just which monster to press a button for?
It was explained over and over; you need more time?
There was a peeiod, maybe two months, when I could barely get Harris supporters to even say the word genocide. What do you think you are explaining?
Such a fucking idiotic take… I’m sure Palestinians will take heart in this sentiment when they get gassed out of existence on January 21.
I’m not happy about it either.
The Zionist entity, generally speakinf, does not use gas. They use large scake bombing campaigns and white phosphorus. This has already been happening for 13 months, if you weren’t aware.
Everyone in north Gaza will be dead or deported before new years. That will be complete before Trump even takes office. How can you still pretend Biden is somehow better when the outcome is the same?
Can we not use Fox News, please? They legally argued in court they are strictly entertainment and no reasonable person would believe them. In other words, they are literal propaganda.
But yeah, I hope the smug voters that sat this election out are happy…
Where my “Democrats are evil genocide people” posters now?
Why are americans so fuckin dumb? Instead of pointing their fingers at millions of trump voters, they are pointing it at people with empathy for having anti-genocider stance.
It feels like they are just interested in finding a scapegoat to blame rather than asking the real questions, why did so many people voted for trump? Did kamala, despite having more funding, failed to convey her plan? What happened and why it happened and how can it be avoided?
Boy those pro-Palestine folks that didn’t vote for Kamala to protest her stance on the genocide sure did own the Democrats. I’m sure they’re super happy about helping get Trump back in office and aren’t at all upset about the leopards gnawing off their entire heads.
I am happy that Democratic voters did not learn that they can support genocide and still win elections.
If you tolerated genocide, you are the kind of voter that allows them to get away with these things. This enabled the current genocide - they expected you to fall in line znd it sounds like you did what you were told. It will also enable the rightward swings the party always wants to take in the interests of capital.
It would be better if you focused on becoming politically informed and worked against these forces rather than giving them legitimacy.
They quite literally do not think Palestinians are people. Nothing else could explain their blood soaked entitlement. Nor how unapologetic they are.
But that was before the election.
Now you know they’re literally the same as the nazis on the other side by how fucking gleeful they are to watch the bodies stack with an ignorant “I told you so”
They’re exactly the people we said they were. Let’s see how many learn from us saying so and being right.
Yes, liberals have been scratched and, as I predicted, they have split into two minds:
- Disbelief and resignation, a depression that can sometimes be broken through with reminders that they shouldn’t have supported genocide.
- “We’ve gotta get a whole lot more racist”
You didnt vote democrat this election you are responsible for never again getting the chance to elect a candidate that will stop Israel or make anything better.
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No Democrats were committing genocide, removed for misinformation.
What do you call giving weapons with the knowledge that they will be used for genocide?
Does the recipient obviously lying “oh they’ll just be used for defense” while they continue to commit genocide with previous shipments of weapons give the democrats plausible deniability in your book?
Knowledge != expressed purpose.
We supply Israel for the defense of Israel, what they then choose to do with it is on them, not us.
what they then choose to do with it is on them, not us.
Why do you believe this? Don’t people have a responsibility to not give weapons to people knowing they will be used for genocide?
Also, us? Are you part of the Biden admin?
What a fascinating standard.
I’m curious, does this mean that you would consider China to be absolved of responsibility for arming Pol Pot, who used their weapons to murder millions of innocent people, on the basis that they never expressly told him to do it, and “merely” kept arming him while it was clear that that was what he was doing? Because I’m pretty sure that kind of apologia would catch you a ban even in the tankiest of tankie spaces, and rightly so. But switch out China and Pol Pot for the US and Netanyahu, and dronies consider not taking that position to be “misinformation.”
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Watch the news, shit is horrible now. There were and are no checks on the Israeli army. But keep blaming the third party voters if it makes you feel better. We don’t mind.
shit is horrible now
If you don’t think it can get worse, you’re a fool.
It will get worse with no policy change. It is an ongoing genocide with unconditional US support.
It’s gratifying to know you don’t mind recognition for being literally too stupid to vote.
Haha! So bad was so bad that picking worse was better? Good going there!
They’re still acting like they’re better than Trump and his supporters
Even now while they’re openly cheering on the death
They’re worse
Usually abstinence prevents idiots from entering the gene pool; this time it may help get rid of some if Trump gets his way. Great work!
Us: You’re acting exactly like nazis
You: Now watch me do eugenics!
The headline is wrong but still congrats to you morons for enabling Trump. He is clearly a friend of the Palestinians and not Bibi’s buddy.
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Harris supporters never embraced genocide.Take your bullshit and leave.
Who was embracing genocide? At least here most people are pro Palestine
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It is on them. If you oppose genocide why would you be okay with it happening elsewhere?
Weird how repeatedly calling for an immediate cease fire and a two state solution in Israel = “Harris genocide”.
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March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
“Monday’s meeting in Washington, D.C., comes one day after Harris called for an immediate, temporary cease-fire in Gaza to facilitate an exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners and detainees. Harris is expected to continue pressing Israel to pause the fighting and allow more humanitarian aid into Gaza.”
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
“Vice President Kamala Harris met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in private Thursday and followed it with a strikingly forceful call on his government to get a cease-fire deal done and ease the suffering of civilians in Gaza.”
“Vice President Kamala Harris reiterated her call for a ceasefire-for-hostage deal in Gaza while expressing sympathy for both Israelis and Palestinians affected by the conflict. Harris condemned the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on southern Israel but said “far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed” by Israel’s ongoing military offensive in Gaza.”
Do you get something out of mis-representing what she said and did? Or were you just not actually paying attention?
You do realize that words and deeds are not the same thing. Or words and words:
Kamala Harris Tailors Ad Messaging on Gaza, Israel to Sway Michigan, Pennsylvania Voters
She’s part of the Biden admin and did not promise to change anything about the policy towards Israel (which is full support even when Israel crosses their so called “red lines”), so she’s 100% complicit in genocide.
As I’ve told multiple propagandists, the support for Israel was for proper Israeli defense, NOT the genocide.
Nobody, not a single person, in the Biden Administration, delivered weapons with the explicit permission of “By all means, kill as many Palestinians as you want.”
The Israelis misappropriated the weapons to do that.
Feel free to blame Netanyahu and Likud for the genocide all you want, they are the ACTUAL perpetrators.
You should be able to tell this because the genocide started 10/7 before a dime of US aid had been promised or delivered.
They’re still sending weapons. You can’t keep giving guns to a guy that keeps murdering people, and then say “I told him not to murder people it’s not my fault”. How would that hold up in court?
Love you just proving their point on why everyone stopped. Because all that happens is instant bans or removals for pointing out flaws.
Also how many of those are just her saying submit to allowing Israeli forces to continue killing everyone after a 30/60 day ceasefire
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What proof?
Biden and Blinken have also been working on a ceasefire for the entire year. They’re working the hardest they ever have on it and all we’ve gotten is us building a failed pier to help Israel launch a military attack.
FYI you can’t use propaganda then claim people are only believing in propaganda
They’re pretending there was some other possibility besides Harris or Trump.
The future is always an open question, my friend. And Harris always had the ability to change her stance.
I’ll bet you any amount of money that the next president is either the Dem or Rep nominee.
I repeated this over and over before the 2020 election. No one took me up on it.
I repeated it over and over again before the most recent election. No one took me up on it.
And no one will take me up on it for 2028 either because we all know what’s going to happen. So let’s stop pretending like we don’t.
I’m not going to bet against you because I don’t trust you, and also because I don’t bet money on politics. We are already betting various aspects of our lives. Putting a little bit of cash on the line is a waste of time compared with everything else.
So I guess you win the argument? Not really though, because no one cares about what you’re saying you want to bet against people around you. In reality, you can play the odds, but in the end we don’t care what the odds were. We only care what actually happened, and we don’t know what’s going to happen on account of it not having happened just yet.
And the other point is that I don’t care what the political party of the president is. I care what the president and their supporters try to push through in terms of policies. Not all Democrats are created the same. Not all Republicans are created the same. And even if they were, which they’re not, politicians and political parties adjust their stances over time, because of course they do, because that’s natural. A label is just a label.
I’m not going to bet against you because I don’t trust you, and also because I don’t bet money on politics.
But also because you know I’m right. Please stop pretending like you don’t know that. Save some amazing and very welcome change to our electoral system, you know damn well I’m right.
because no one cares about what you’re saying you want to bet against people around you.
It’s not really about the bet or money. It goes to show that we all know what the outcome will be. People pretend to believe some other outcome is possible, likely even. But when presented with a bet they back off immediately. Why? Because we all know.
and we don’t know what’s going to happen on account of it not having happened just yet.
I’m doing too well in my predictions over these past few elections for it to be a coincidence. I know exactly what’s going to happen and so do you. That or I have powers of foresight for a very particular event…
And the other point is that I don’t care what the political party of the president is. I care what the president and their supporters try to push through in terms of policies.
Sure… I guess? When it comes down to it, I also don’t care which party wins as long as the candidate aligns with me politically. That’s not news. But you know as well as I do that a Republican is much less likely to give me a public option, real action on climate, institute policies to encourage walkable cities, or any of the other policies I imagine you and I align on. Why pretend like any of them is remotely possible from the Republican side?
Exactly. For a country with as many mass shootings as we see we are a soft country. People strap bombs to their chest to achieve less toward their own goals. These brats think major change will happen in a year. The reality is that if you want major change you got to accept that it is unlikely to happen out life times.
But you’re ok embracing Trump genocide?
No? Why are you making things up?
Am I? If you don’t think we get more genocide with Trump you are willfully not paying attention.
Almost everyone in north Gaza will be dead by new years. That happened entirely under Biden. Do you think Trump will kill them a second time?
We all know Trump is objectively worse but your argument is terrible; it’s like the Americans saying we should overlook Bush’s atrocities like Abu Ghraib because Saddam Hussein was worse. No, that’s just a fallacy.
Your premise is based on this: "Almost everyone in north Gaza will be dead by new years. "
Which is clearly and obviously false. Check back with me on Jan 1.
“Do you think Trump will kill them a second time?”
The Trump administration will enable the complete erasure of the Palestinian people and their land. Huckabee has said as much already. Israelis have said as much too. I believe them.
Finally, do you think nothing else matters? Do you think the consequences of a Trump administration beyond Palestine don’t matter? If so, I’d encourage you to spend less time virtue signaling and more time checking your privilege.
The UN has said it explicitly. Famine has taken place and aid is not allowed in. Biden withdrew his ultimatum and the Generals Plan is being implemented. But are you happy if only 70% of North Gazans died then man you sure showed me up.
It’s no question Trump is worse for West Bank and Palestinian aspirations, because he’s only accelerating the same policy that Biden agreed to. In terms of Gaza there really is no difference; the four years of Biden was worse for their lives than 4 years of Trump. But you’re being offensive by saying I need to ignore the Palestinian people whose funerals I attended because Trump is going to do the same thing in a nastier way. You dismissing my community’s real pain as virtue signaling just shows how out of touch you are and why Harris lost. Listen for a change.
I mean, assuming everyone on an instance has exactly the same views is kind of asinine. You won’t find me pushing that shit. And plenty of others from ml also.
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Bruh, I’m just here for the memes. But I can start commenting on political stuff more to even out my instance’s biases if that would help. Honestly haven’t paid much attention to which trolls were from where, but I’ll take your word for it…
I don’t understand the downvotes.
It’s fine, the internet will internet. Unless someone tells me what I’ve done wrong, I’m just gonna assume one downvote gave it the initial velocity for more downvotes. Trying to understand it beyond that will make you go crazy.
Most dissidents have been banned from .world to keep the echo chamber functional.
you’ve got .ml and others, that’s where all the “dissidents” hang out. Must be hard to be a dissident when everyone agrees with you.
.ml has some trigger happy mods but nobody gets banned for criticizing the democratic party for supporting a genocide.
You can tell how much of an echo chamber it is here since there are no weapons restrictions for Trump to lift. Because the democrats did not place any.
.ml has some trigger happy mods but nobody gets banned for criticizing the democratic party for supporting a genocide.
Oh you don’t get banned for going along with Russian propaganda? Wow, weird huh.
But then you do get banned for pointing out Russian propaganda.
Here.
That’s @davel@lemmy.ml pushing against BlueSky, spreading his usual bullshit links about “Nazis”. He thinks Ukraine is filled with Nazis and Russia was right to invade it. Now “BlueSky is filled with Nazis”
It doesn’t take a genius to suss this out, but that’s what the poorly educated Russians don’t get. Or they rely on Americans being equally stupid, which is a good bet, honestly.
But for people with a normal amount of media/political literacy? Lol.
Everything I’m told by the state media is good and correct and everything would be fine if it weren’t for the underhanded secret
jewsrussians feeding dissentHey! Why am I being banned for following a user around and making personal attacks at them??
YOU’RE ALL JUST A BUNCH OF J-I MEAN RUSSIANS
You guys genuinely can’t argue like adults, it’s very irritating.
I’ve not followed anyone around nor have I made any personal attacks. Is “are you pro-Russian?” a personal attack in your opinion? I guess we’ll find out.
Are you pro-Russian?
Do you believe Russia has broken international law with their illegal war of aggression by invading Ukraine in February 2022?
(And I know you won’t answer any of that, you’ll just continue with the garbage quality propaganda. Which is to say utilising shitty rhetoric to push your agenda. Ie the childish nature of your wannabe argument. I wish you could see just how ridiculous it is, but you’re genuinely not able to. If you were, you’d be too ashamed to write that, lol.)
Stimulus: “You’re falling into the exact antisemetic tropes The Protocols of the Elders of Zion inspired in the late 18th century. You’re just replacing ‘Russian’ for ‘Jew’ for your paranoid delusions that act as thought stoppers for any dissent”
Response: “YOU SOUND LIKE A SECRET JEW”
In what way were we wrong? Did we ever claim Trump would be good on Gaza?
Yes. Now fuck off.
I bet you couldn’t even name a single example
Link or it didn’t happen.
Harris lost because of a lack of blue voters who didn’t get an exit poll.
There were more red there, and they claim to have voted because of economy because racism and hurting the other team wasn’t on the official ticket.
exit polls showed that harris lost mainly on the economy. You just want to pretend it was gaza so you can point fingers.
Nope, it was the apathy. Democrats that came out to vote for Biden 4 years ago stayed home. That’s a FACT you can count in the number of votes cast this election vs last.
You know what else is a fact? People that stayed home and didn’t vote DIDN’T GET EXIT POLLED.
Exit polls and polls leading up to election. Come on now, lets not mince words or pretend the data wasnt obvious. They did know. It was all over the news snce the day she started her run.
“The economy, particularly inflation and the cost of living, is the primary issue for a majority of voters.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm24g1nj364o
Bidens historically low approval rating was well documented, and the reason for it being low was well understood. She chose to say that “she couldnt think of anything she’d change” or something like that. She ran on a platform that had already ended up on the rocks long ago. Centrists just put their fingers in their ears and pretended Biden was the second coming of FDR whenever Biden was criticised, but the numbers were there waiting to be read if you cared about reality and dropped the infantile “rooting for your sports team, blue no matter who” mentality.
88% of Americans disagreed with how the US was acting in the Israeli war on gazans. Did you think that would be cost-free, or that Biden showed he had votes to burn in the last election or the ones before that? he didnt. Harris knew that wouldnt be consequence free. She ran with it anyway. Thats just Bidens stubborn rightwing-fellating petulant stupidity thats been the hallmark of his entire career bleeding into Harrnis’ campaign. A competent politician wouldnt have taken on that baggage when it was so obviously going to cost big in swing states.
“The vice president has said she would not change from Biden’s policies, and argued that Israel has a right to defend itself. But she has also said that far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed”
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4895174-democrats-middle-east-conflict/
She chose to say that “she couldnt think of anything she’d change”
She said she wouldn’t have done anything differently from what Biden did. When asked what the difference between a Harris and Biden admin would be, she said she would appoint a republican to the cabinet.
Exit polls are flawed in the sense that the people who don’t vote aren’t there to begin with.
God forbid someone point a finger for supporting genocide
Shut up pro-Russian account.
(He’ll start whining something personal, my proof is in that he won’t answer the question “are you pro-Russian”, watch;)
Are you pro-Russian? (And yes, this is related to the thread because you can’t not be trusted a pro-Putler person to talk about genocide when you don’t accept Uighur genocide happening either.)
edit after a week; case in point; the whole thread below this. just squirming and squirming not so say they’re not Russian. They literally support genocide, from this thread, you can easily see what a Russian troll actually looks like. It’s someone with a poor education and poor understanding of Western culture trying to parrot Soviet propaganda styles from the 70’s. anyone’s who’s sat a few classes of rhetoric will get a good laugh out of him, lol.
you can’t not be trusted
middle school dropout
Why would you advertise being a drop-out? Russian education is already so garbage.
Are you pro-Russian? Simple question. Just say you’re against Putler invading Ukraine, unless you’re actively for it?
Oh so now we trust polls. Got it.
There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
Quit being coy, just take a bow and acknowledge your victory. You stood strong against genocide, and helped elect the only candidate who can’t be reasoned with and whose stated political policy was to SPEED UP THE GENOCIDE. Congrats! If you thought their blood wasn’t on your hands before, it absolutely is now.
There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
In that case, Trump has won with an overwhelming majority in every election he’s ever run in, since nonvoters are like half the population and all of them count as voting for Trump.
Back here in reality, that’s not how it works.
There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
By this logic a vote for Jill Stein would be a vote for Harris, lol. Question your political masters, this just isn’t logical at all.
Quit being coy, just take a bow and acknowledge your victory.
It is good for Democratic voters to have failed while supporting genocide. You shouldn’t support genocide and I shouldn’t have to lecture you like this. Be a good person.
You stood strong against genocide, and helped elect the only candidate who can’t be reasoned with and whose stated political policy was to SPEED UP THE GENOCIDE.
Israel already has unconditional support for its genocide and opened up two new fronts with the suppory of the Biden-Harris administration. Israel does not have one hsnd tied behind its back. The dominant global empire supports it materially and diplomatically.
Your lesser evil logic means nothing here. It is again just a thought terminating cliché from your political masters. Instead of justifying lesser-evil genocide, please go and inform yourself and work to help others.
Congrats! If you thought their blood wasn’t on your hands before, it absolutely is now.
Blood is on the hands of those committing and supporting genocide, not those who fifht against it. Look at how this political illogic has twisted your understanding of basic reality.
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What restrictions?
What restrictions?, the article doesnt mention any, Bidens ultimatum came and went with no action.
Both sides were for unconditional aid to Israel, kamala may have added some laments about loss of life but she repeatedly said restrictions on military were off the table. Until someone can point to me a concrete policy that kamala had in her platform that was different from trump then yeah both sides are equally bad on this issue. Trump is worse on a lot of others but to a Palestinian they are both bad.
The article has a vague statement trying to make it sound like there were lots of restrictions, but I think it’s just the 2000 lb. bombs, and maybe some sort of guidance system (IIRC). Because it’s a fucking Fox News article for some reason.
Currently, U.S. restrictions include an embargo on a certain weapons shipment and limitations on various combat-related equipment, even if they do not involve explosive ordnance.
Allowing them is definitely more bad, but it’s going from like 95% of maximum complicity to 100%.
The only restrictions are stuff we don’t give to anyone. By the end of Trump’s term I will not be surprised if Israel has an Ohio class submarine.
We’ll see how many shipments of white phosphorus get sent now.
I know this is a disgusting thought but, assuming there are ever free elections in the United States again, Gaza won’t be an issue in 2028. Palestine will just be a memory.
Did anyone tell the Palestinians that this would have been the same and to not worry? We had brave, brave people who sat on their hands and did nothing in their name, so I hope they’re grateful for their “sacrifice.”
The more common correlary was to sit on one’s hands and provide consent for genocide or to try to vote shame on support of genocidal candidates.
Though I think you know that those who stand with Palestine tend to be more politically active than your typical Democratic voter. I know I don’t see your type in the streets or running education programs or building connections to support Palestinians directly.
Oh my, my type? Goodness, you know, I didn’t see your type either now that I think about it! When I went to protests and meetings in my community, I’m afraid I didn’t see you there, I only saw people who we trying to actually help people, you know, the ones that knew they were between and rock and a hard place, but actually tried to not hand the government over to a blood thirsty racist, while making sure the community was informed in what steps to take should he win and are now continuing to rally and make their voices heard instead of “not VoTiNg fOr GeNoCiDe” which, you know, kind of got us here.
But perhaps it’s scary to stand for a belief off of the internet, but I’m unfamiliar with the feeling because my mom didn’t raise a removed.
Don’t worry, we’ll handle it, sport. You just stay safe inside, okay? ♥️
Oh my, my type? Goodness, you know, I didn’t see your type either now that I think about it! When I went to protests and meetings in my community
Speaking about this as if they are over and not something ongoing says a lot. I’m leaning towards this just being a lie.
, I’m afraid I didn’t see you there, I only saw people who we trying to actually help people, you know, the ones that knew they were between and rock and a hard place, but actually tried to not hand the government over to a blood thirsty racist, while making sure the community was informed in what steps to take should he win and are now continuing to rally and make their voices heard instead of “not VoTiNg fOr GeNoCiDe” which, you know, kind of got us here.
I have never seen a pro-Palestinian protest with that message. That just sounds like you projecting your armchair liberal takes onto other people.
The people who organize pro-Palestinian protests are socialists and allied Palestinian groups, occasionally JVP. And while JVP is milquetoast and weak, even they aren’t that mealy-mouthed.
But perhaps it’s scary to stand for a belief off of the internet, but I’m unfamiliar with the feeling because my mom didn’t raise a removed.
I wonder what slur you used while calling yourseld a good person.
Don’t worry, we’ll handle it, sport. You just stay safe inside, okay? ♥️
It id also telling that this is the only part of my comment that you replied to.
What slur? Now you really have loss me. People in my community were realistic about what we could get done on 11/5. We didn’t call anyone a slur, we’re not Republicans. Naive? Foolish? Maybe, but what slur? I’m not calling myself a “Good” person, but I’m am calling myself a politically involved and empathetic beyond what is comfortable for me. I’m sure you also feel like you’re a good person, and maybe you are, I only know you from this interaction. But I’m at peace with what I did on 11/5 because I didn’t stop working.
I’m fine being down voted knowing that I did and will continue to do what I can. Just like I’m sure you’re fine feeling that you did and/or are doing the same.
I’m sorry, I’m just so angry that we are in this position, and that it’s even worse. It’s very, very frustrating (though I’m sure it’s the same for you).
Still not sure why you think we’d be walking around calling people slurs though 👀
Edit: Whoops, their account is gone I think? Sorry. I swear I didn’t report. 🙏🏾
But you clearly used a slur that was removed
Ah! It was the word “b*tch.” I thought he was saying a racial slur. Didn’t even notice 😂
You could literally ask them yourself. They quite explicitly refused to vote for you and your genocidal racist candidate.
You brave, brave keyboard warrior who would get their ass beat if you said any of this in person
Lmao I would absolutely square up against a fascist. Don’t threaten me with a good time. See, I’m an adult. I understand the work doesn’t stop at the vote, but I know how important it is to do what I can, even if it’s small. And I know that giving the government the equivalent of a cold shoulder allows shit to happen. Evil happens when good people do nothing, and, unlike you I guess, I refuse to do nothing. I’m involved in my local government and plan to keep working. I’d say you should do the same, but I think we both know that ain’t happening. But I hope you feel good doing nothing but bad mouthing those braver than you on the internet. Just down vote me and be on your way. 💅🏾
It’s a very nazi thing to accuse your victims of being fascists.
They were braver than that, friend! They took to the internet in droves, and in every comment thread they showed everyone how principled they were, commenting “I ReFUsE to VoTE 4 GENOCIDE!!!”, spreading their message to either vote 3rd party or don’t vote at all. They worked hard AF to spread their apathy far and wide!
That they did. I’m sure Netanyahu is grateful.
There are no restrictions to lift, but I guess it makes a good sound bite, even if its utter nonsense.
https://www.reuters.com/world/no-us-conditions-security-assistance-israel-austin-says-2023-10-12/
I think you will find out exactly what he means… I think you already know, but are lying to yourself.
The Biden-Harris regime used this as a rhetorical fig leaf and Trump will not. No policy changes, no material changes on this. It is just different propaganda angles to keep doing the same thing.
Time for the 2nd stage of FAaFO for all those that fucked around.
No both sides were not equally bad choices for trying to stop the slaughter of non-combatants.
Non-combatants have been getting slaughtered none stop for over a year now with the help of the Biden/Harris admin.
If they were the better choice they could have demonstrated that, with actions not words.
Bidens 30 day deadline came and went and nothing changed because Biden doesn’t care about innocent life and the dem leadership are all in the pocket of aipac https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/11/biden-israel-palestine-gaza-aid-30-day-warnings-blinken-toothless/
Not going to debate what Biden (since as VP Harris has no actual power to do anything) has done or not done nor your opinions of what he’s done or not done. I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true. What he’s done to express that humanity given geopolitical realities is the real issue.
But anyone who actually thinks Trump cares at all about innocent life, or anyone’s life but his own, or cares about the legacy he leaves behind may find themselves rethinking that opinion in the coming year.
Now that the election is over, I truly do hope something good gets done. We of course won’t know what Harris could have accomplished, but we’ll certainly know if Trump tries and if he succeeds. Keeping fingers crossed.
ETA: I’ll just drop this here https://www.reuters.com/world/us/muslims-who-voted-trump-upset-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-picks-2024-11-15/
I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true.
How would you have any read on his personal feelings at all? And why would you care that they’re being besmirched? His actions are what matter to the world and the only path by which any of us has to judge him.
You’re right I have no more intimate knowledge of his internal feelings than you do. I have however seen enough humanity in him to believe he has more empathy than Trump who has a very well documented history of narcissism bordering on psychopathy.
As for my “care” of his humanity being besmirched, I don’t actually. My issue was with your questionable assertion that he doesn’t care and the implication that maybe (but maybe not) you actually think Trump cares more.
As for his actions as the president of the united states, who has the full weight of international geopolitics, national politics, and an election to consider, I’d say the job is no where near as simple as you’d like it to seem and as much as I hate (or don’t hate but am resigned) to admit it, there is a limit to what the United States can actually do to make a difference in Gaza that might not have other undesirable results.
First, I’m not the guy you were replying to.
Second, there may be a limit to what the United States can do in Gaza, but we know for sure Biden didn’t ever even try to reach it. It’s a much more strained interpretation to believe a highly empathic person cared deeply about the harm he was causing and did practically nothing to reduce it than to believe someone who has spent their entire life pursuing greater personal power, including multiple times where he supported wars in the Middle East, might be a bit of a sociopath. Making the former work requires inventing these unobservable stresses and reasons to explain why a seemingly immoral response is in fact secretly moral, while the latter lines up with our general understanding of people at the highest levels of power and the plain observations. The morality of a genocide is not complex.
Didn’t say what was or was not moral or the complexity of genocide. I said that diplomacy is much more complex than either side wants to admit when they are emotionally invested (for very good reasons!) in painting the other side of the argument as heartless / savage / inhuman.
Regardless, my central premise hasn’t changed: I hope the whole situation can be brought to a peaceful conclusion as fast as possible with a framework for lasting peace. BUT, I don’t think Trump is the one to make it happen, I don’t even think the US can actually make it happen, and I worry there are a lot of US voters who will suddenly be realizing the Leopard actually ate THEIR face. But hey, maybe Huckabee and Stefanik will decide the Palestinians are real and care about them more than Biden or Harris and Trump won’t lift all military restrictions on Israel on the 1st day in office like the referenced article [shrug] I actually do hope so, but I obviously am not holding my breath.
Removed by mod
It is possible for two things to be true at the same time. Sure Kamala might have lost for the reasons you suggest. And it can also be true that another group is about to Find Out what Trump is going to do. Just the last few days alone are giving a lot of evidence that the Palestinian people are not going to be better off with Trump in office.
As for it not being strategic, well, that depends if you think the strategy was ONLY to win the election as opposed to trying to do what he thought best in a horrific and complex situation; and ONLY if you think there was an alternative course of action that would have actually won the election.
I’m not sure why folks are only hearing, or responding to, the coulda/woulda/shoulda side of the conversation. A side for which I haven’t really disagreed with in spirit, namely yes Biden/Harris surely knew there were electoral consequences to their actions, among other much sadder consequences, but you continue to ignore the actual topic of conversation … What the future holds.
Okay I can take a guess why [shrug] but such is life. Feel free to have one more reply, I’m done beating a dead leopard.
