What else would you call women in this scenario? You’re literally worth less than a non-sentient proto-fetal clump
Worth an equal amount as another human life, you mean?
You perverting the other sides argument doesn’t make you or your argument better, just makes you come off as stupid and lacking any understanding of the issue as a whole.
There is no other human life involved. Or did you forget to read the next thing I said, that it’d be like declaring a tumor a human life and forbidding people from removing them. A proto fetal clump isn’t a person. It’s not a baby. Its not a human. It’s a clump. It has no thoughts, it has no feelings, it is not self aware, it is not an independent organism and is in all senses of the word a parasite. You can screw off if you think that a parasitic tumor has the same worth as a woman, that it has the same worth as a human being. And you’re only proving my point by even trying to justify it.
I perverted not a single fucking thing. These laws result directly, not indirectly but literally directly, in the killing of women and girls. Its murder to deny someone life saving medical care. You’re a sick misogynist if you defend any part of that. And the people who write these laws are not stupid, they’re not unaware, the intention is to result directly in grievous bodily harm and inevitable death of women and girls. Its murder, they know what these laws do. They know these laws don’t prevent abortion, and every single one of them will ship their daughter or their wife down to Mexico to get one if they have to. They won’t hesitate. There is no moral reason for these laws. These laws relegate women to a subservient breeding class deprived of the most basic fundamental human rights.
You’ve already shown who you actually are so ill be perfectly honest I don’t give a fuck what you have to say. I dont fraternize with misogynists, and defending the murder of women and girls unequivocally makes you a misogynist. Nothing you have to say after that has any validity whatsoever.
This is the actual Republican platform. The guy you’re arguing with doesn’t actually believe that protofetuses are worth trying to keep them alive. He just wants to be able to tell you what to do, and guess what? If he can force you to die over a nonviable protofetus, that means he has power over you, which is the entire point. He doesn’t care about you, save that he doesn’t want you to be able to keep him from killing you over a nonviable protofetus. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
I believe there is which is why we’re having this debate.
the intention is to result directly in grievous bodily harm and inevitable death of women and girls.
And I believe that what’s in their belly is a whole other person to consider their lives.
There is no moral reason for these laws.
If someone believes that a fetus is essentially the same as my 2 month old niece, wouldn’t there be a moral reason to not want to them?
I understand your argument despite the hostility, I think if you calmly thought about it, you would think that there could be some moral backing, not that you would believe it or anything, simply that you can see how it could be a moral dilemma.
Okay this argument is hypocritical AF. First, your two month old niece isn’t about to risk killing you and then die. Second, if she was going to die without you giving her an organ transplant, do you think it’s okay for the government to force you to do that surgery against your will? What about if it wasn’t your niece? What if you’re 10?
You don’t respect the autonomy of a woman if you believe in forcing decisions on them about their body, hard stop. There is no wiggle room for you to argue that the fetus matters, because you wouldn’t apply that to any other situation in life. Stop acting like it’s the moral choice when it’s literally forcing woman to risk their lives against their will. Those women are already alive, why don’t their rights and lives matter to you?
Okay this argument is hypocritical AF. First, your two month old niece isn’t about to risk killing you and then die. Second, if she was going to die without you giving her an organ transplant, do you think it’s okay for the government to force you to do that surgery against your will? What about if it wasn’t your niece? What if you’re 10?
I’m not arguing in the case that this post is of.
I was simply saying that no, it’s not my goal to enslave women. I just think the fetus is a human life that should be protected.
If you think “The fetus is a human life that should be protected” by the government, my reply would be exactly the same. It’s no different. The government protecting a fetus is the government taking away a woman’s right to her own life and body. Whatever grey areas exist in the debates that have gone on over the decades, this is not grey area. It’s black and white.
If I told you I wanted the government to protect homeless people’s right to live by forcing you to donate blood, I’m putting the homeless person’s rights above yours. If you want the government to force women to literally risk their lives for 9 months you’re putting a pile of cells’s rights above a woman’s. There is no fallacy here, there is no “but what about”, it’s plain and simple. Either you see women as humans with equal rights and value as yourself, or you believe a fetus has more rights than a woman. The only other possibility is you are the type who actually does want the government to force people to donate blood and organs. I met one once, quite the lunatic.
The government protecting a fetus is the government taking away a woman’s right to her own life and body.
One could easily argue that the government letting the woman end the fetus’ life is ruining the fetus’ right to his/her own life and body.
If you want the government to force women to literally risk their lives for 9 months you’re putting a pile of cells’s rights above a woman’s.
the likelihood of a life risking event is fairly rare, and I’m for exceptions to that
Your first sentence says that even if I believe the fetus is a human life that should be protected, your reply would be the same, so why’d you switch your terminology back? You should have said “You’re putting a human life that should be protected above a woman’s” - once again, you try and pull this emotional terminology rather than being consistent.
Either you see women as humans with equal rights and value as yourself, or you believe a fetus has more rights than a woman.
I think all 3 have equal rights, and that none of us should be able to end the life of the others.
The only other possibility is you are the type who actually does want the government to force people to donate blood and organs
I agree, it’s a tough moral dilemma, which makes it hard to have honest conversations about this. That’s the biggest argument on the pro-choices corner, in my opinion. But the fact that it’s the mothers intentional actions that brought the life to the world makes me lean towards the pro-life side. Contraceptives are easily accessible, I’m for policies that make them available freely to all women. I’m for policies that increase sexual education on pregnancies. I’m for increased funding to the adoptive care system along with foster care systems. I’m for policies ensuring proper healthcare for pregnant women.
I wish more republicans will say this - if we want to be pro life - reduce unwanted pregnancies, provide care to pregnant women and fund options for the baby if they want to provide that baby to a more willing family.
One could easily argue that the government letting the woman end the fetus’ life is ruining the fetus’ right to his/her own life and body.
No, not really. Unless you’re going to argue some stranger on the street who needs an organ donated to live is having their rights infringed by the government not forcing you to give them your organs to save them. The only difference is the location of the “human”. Also, regardless, if you are making this argument, then either you’re still saying the fetus has more rights than the woman, or the government shouldn’t intervene because both have equal rights.
Your first sentence says that even if I believe the fetus is a human life that should be protected, your reply would be the same, so why’d you switch your terminology back? You should have said “You’re putting a human life that should be protected above a woman’s” - once again, you try and pull this emotional terminology rather than being consistent.
I don’t believe a fetus is a human. But sure, put the word human there instead, because if your argument is that this unborn human’s life should be protected above a woman’s, you’re still taking away that woman’s rights.
I think all 3 have equal rights, and that none of us should be able to end the life of the others.
The fetus can not live on its own. Saying an abortion is ending the life of the fetus is like saying taking someone off life support is ending their life. While technically true, are you the type of person that would also argue the government should disallow the removal of life support?
But the fact that it’s the mothers intentional actions that brought the life to the world
I’m sorry, but if you honestly think it’s up to a woman whether or not she gets pregnant, you’re incredibly out of touch with reality. Contraceptives aren’t 100% effective. Rape is a thing. Hell, humans make mistakes sometimes. Women don’t just go around getting abortions because they felt like it, it’s not a fun procedure and it’s not without risk. The biggest factor that makes this an irrelevant argument is there is literally no other example of a policy you would support that would infringe on someone’s rights in the same way. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of examples where people put other people’s lives in danger but they still have rights. Why focus on this one specific issue when there are so many others? The only answer is sexism. Not respecting Women’s rights. There are zero implemented policies that would force someone to feed someone else who’s dying, shelter them, donate blood to them, or do anything that would keep them alive. And I doubt you would argue for them if there were.
I wish more republicans will say this - if we want to be pro life - reduce unwanted pregnancies, provide care to pregnant women and fund options for the baby if they want to provide that baby to a more willing family.
This is fine, but what’s not fine is supporting government policies that force the decision on women. Especially blanket ones with no exceptions.
I mean literally. I don’t know how you can sit here and say ‘okay, well someone might believe that it’s a human life in the womb, but absolutely no way in hell could they argue that a woman ending it’s life could be wrong!!’ - if you can’t grasp a basic concept that ending a human life could be considered immoral, we shouldn’t continue this conversation.
I don’t believe a fetus is a human.
Once again - you’re the one that said ‘even if I believe the fetus is a human life that should be protected’ - so I don’t care if you actually believe it or not, you set that up to be the basis of your argument.
because if your argument is that this unborn human’s life should be protected above a woman’s, you’re still taking away that woman’s rights.
My argument is they are equals, and ending either life is something that is a moral question, not an objective answer like you portray it to be.
The fetus can not live on its own. Saying an abortion is ending the life of the fetus is like saying taking someone off life support is ending their life. While technically true, are you the type of person that would also argue the government should disallow the removal of life support?
No, but I think that there should be some sort of consent (generally a medical POA would suffice) necessary to have someone make the decision to remove life support. If you can get a medical POA from the fetus, then I would buy into this argument.
I’m sorry, but if you honestly think it’s up to a woman whether or not she gets pregnant, you’re incredibly out of touch with reality.
It actually is. the vast vast vast majority of adults know that if they have sex, there’s a risk of pregnancy. You know this, right? That’s like me walking up at softball and swinging, hitting the ball and getting pissed because I didn’t know that swinging could end in the possibility of me hitting the ball.
Contraceptives aren’t 100% effective.
99.9% effective for some, and combining contraceptives makes the rates extremely small.
Rape is a thing.
I’m for exceptions in the case of rape.
Hell, humans make mistakes sometimes.
Sure, but that doesn’t give one the right to end another’s life.
Women don’t just go around getting abortions because they felt like it, it’s not a fun procedure and it’s not without risk.
Did I say that?
The biggest factor that makes this an irrelevant argument is there is literally no other example of a policy you would support that would infringe on someone’s rights in the same way. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of examples where people put other people’s lives in danger but they still have rights. Why focus on this one specific issue when there are so many others? The only answer is sexism. Not respecting Women’s rights.
There’s an argument that abortions don’t respect the babies lives, male or female.
There are zero implemented policies that would force someone to feed someone else who’s dying,
If you have 1 year old baby and you don’t feed him and in result they die, do you not think there’s a policy that punishes you for this?
This is fine, but what’s not fine is supporting government policies that force the decision on women.
They didn’t force women to have sex. They didn’t force women to get pregnant. They are simply saying that if a human life is created, that it has inherent value and with such there’s a moral question on whether ending a human life without their consent is wrong.
Especially blanket ones with no exceptions.
I’ve already mentioned multiple times about exceptions. If you want to keep bringing this up, you can. My answer has stayed consistent.
You act like just because a couple words are related it’s a ‘gotcha’ I can run with individual rights or human rights, or I can argue that definitions of words have no meaning besides conveying information, and they are actually fluid (see how the definition of ‘woman’ has changed).
Someone doesn’t understand the words “non-viable”. You really should start by reading a dictionary before you start redefining words like fetus, life, and enslave.
Funny how you only care about the dead unborn child, not the living one or the mother.
I’m fine discussing viability, but don’t be rude when that wasn’t the topic in the comment you’re responding to.
Funny how you only care about the dead unborn child
The comment you’re responding to, I even said that I’m not arguing about the article, I’m saying more in general. My response was to someone saying I want to enslave women, because I’m pro-life.
In the specific case of the article, I agree with you, and this is an good scenario which many pro-lifers see an exception for.
If you’d like to converse, all I ask is that you’re not hostile. You can state your case and I can state mine, without being a dick.
What a good way to shut down conversation. I think that’s what’s wrong with the political climate now days, you get in an echo chamber and any deviation from your echo chamber and you shut down conversation saying that any deviation from you is ‘inherently dickish.’
If you’d actually like to discuss, I’m here.
If you can’t help but to be a dick in your comments, I won’t care to discuss.
In this case there absolutely was another human life involved- the twin that’s life was at risk because doctors couldn’t abort the fetus that was going to die within hours of birth anyway. You don’t seem to care about that life.
In this case there absolutely was another human life involved- the twin that’s life was at risk because doctors couldn’t abort the fetus that was going to die within hours of birth anyway. You don’t seem to care about that life.
Agreed! There were 3 lives. I wasn’t really talking about this case, more in general.
That user said simply because someones pro-life, that I want to enslave women. That’s not true at all, and I’m just saying that’s strawmanning our argument, that if you understand it, you would think that morally there could be a question.
Once again, and I’m downvoted to shit because people strawman the argument, I understand your side - do you understand my side?
Ok, I’ll engage you on this one, your position at least seems internally consistent.
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you. You recently found out that she even exists - you didn’t know you had a sister until CPS told you she’s your responsibility.
An action that risks your life could possibly save her… Let’s say a liver transplant. It has to be you, you’re her only living family member. And because of that, you’ll also be responsible for her - you can put her up for adoption when this is all over, but you’re still on the hook for the medical bills whether this works or not.
She’s guaranteed to die if you don’t give her the transplant, and you would almost certainly recover quickly on your own.
If you go through with the transplant, she has a slim chance to live, and an even slimmer one to have a decent quality of life.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky - at best you’ll see a lengthy and expensive recovery, after missing months of work you’ll be tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Complications could see you paralyzed or in lifelong pain, and it’s very possible both of you die on the table - maybe even likely.
The doctors are telling you it’s a terrible idea to go through with this, that the risk is unacceptable and it would be a mercy to just let her pass, but they’re obligated to go through with it if you insist.
Now, no one is stopping you from going through with it - if you want to put your life on the line for another, that’s your decision to make. You’re her guardian now, so it’s your decision if she should have to go through the pain for the chance at life, no matter how small.
That’s all well and good - I’ve seen enough to know that death is often a mercy, but if you believe otherwise there’s not much to say
Now, here’s my question - should the government be able to force you to attempt the transplant?
Some of these details might seem weird, but I was trying to stick the metaphor as close as possible to a very real scenario with a dangerous pregnancy. The only difference is - the doctor is performing an action here, but withholding one with the pregnancy.
You’re not though - pregnancy is not a lack of action. It’s an enormous commitment, especially when it’s atypical. It can even be a practically guaranteed death sentence - if the fetus implants in the fallopian tubes, it’s already not viable - at best you’re waiting for the fetus to grow big enough to rupture them, and hoping the bleed that causes doesn’t do too much damage before you can get help.
Not to mention if a fetus dies in the womb after it gets to a certain size, it rots and leads to sepsis - unclear laws and harsh punishments have already led to situations where doctors refused care for both of these life threatening cases, and in both these cases the odds aren’t slim, they’re none. In the second the fetus was already gone… Sometimes when they induce labor the fetus isn’t even in one piece… It’s pretty grisly
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
So… My root question to you is - Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
If so, how sure do you have to be that the other person will die no matter what you do before you’re released from the compulsion to put your own health on the line?
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you.
My actions didn’t bring her into this world. That’s a huge difference.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky
I agree there should always be exceptions for cases like these.
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
You see it as a potential life, I see it as a whole life. I thank you for understanding that it’s reasonable one might have this believe.
Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
See my response above.
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
In law there’s a lot of ‘reasonable’ language - would a reasonable person think this is a likely event. In general, pregnancies aren’t life risking to mothers.
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
If I brought in my twin brother to a doctors office and said ‘hey, this guy is really making me sick, can you kill him for me?’ I think a reasonable law maker can determine whether that’s right or wrong. To some people, there’s no difference between the life of you and I, and a fetus.
You saying that you don’t bring your niece into this world sounds a lot like the responsibility argument, aka “you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”. You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent. Neither exceptions nor saying that you believe every fetus is the same as a fully formed human answer the question.
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else? Please, don’t side step again. Please, don’t give me “it’s not my fault they’re here, they had sex, therefore they have to do it”. Please, don’t give me “but I think the fetus has rights too”. How would you feel?
“you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”
If an individual does the only action that would cause a human life to be created, I don’t think they get to kill that being just because it’s inconvenient. It’s about preserving a human life, not about punishment.
You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent.
I showed how your hypothetical and where it doesn’t apply. If you’d like to use a different hypothetical, I’m fine with that. Why not use my child? If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else?
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it.
If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
You’re talking about me avoiding questions, which I answered already, but you ignored mine: If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
I answered that above, if you want me to expand on it I can, but I did answer it. I said:
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it. If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
Women in the U.S. now have fewer rights to their bodies than do corpses. So, unfortunately no, we aren’t worth the same as another human life or even a human death for that matter.
In this specific case, I agree, it’s a hard moral question with the twin involved which makes it harder.
I’m not speaking on this specific case, and most pro-lifers are open to exceptions, this being a prime example of where I think there should be. but the more broad statement that simply because I’m pro-life, means that I want to enslave woman, is absurdly wrong and simply perverting and strawmanning a fairly reasonable argument that a human life in the womb has inherent human life value.
Doesnt stop you from being wrong because you lack the basic understanding of the concepts.
So you think your argument is 100% factually correct, despite it clearly being an opinion.
I can admit that pro-choices have a reasonable argument, even though I don’t subscribe to that opinion. If you refuse to see any other argument on a divided issue, I suggest you learn about the other sides argument, and it either strengthens your position or gives you more nuance on the division. Wanna know why politics is so divided? It’s because people 100% think they’re right and they won’t listen to the other argument to understand it. You share that quality with the MAGA folks, I hope you learn to not have that awful quality.
If self-awareness was a disease you’d be the healthiest person alive.
It’s funny you say this when the comment you responded to, I literally said “I can admit that pro-choices have a reasonable argument, even though I don’t subscribe to that opinion.”
Can you say the same about the other ‘sides’ argument?
I did and came across this definition: ‘of or for a particular person.’
My niece, Amber, is a particular person, whether she was just birthed, or it was 20 minute earlier when she was in the womb and the doctors were telling my sister to push.
That’s called cherry picking. It’s intellectually disingenuous, not that you’d understand that concept given your displayed levels of reading comprehension, but ignoring the core definitions of the word to play gotcha games with a secondary definition of ‘person’ which you are also intentionally misrepresenting the definition of doesn’t make you right, it just reinforces that your intentionally malicious attempts to circumvent agreed upon language conventions and collective are necessary for you to even pretend like you have a leg to stand on in the conversation.
You literally cannot hold or present your position without first bastardising any attempt to communicate in good faith by arbitrarily redefining words.
In other words, you’ve proven yourself either disingenuous or stupid, which one comes down to your actual cognizance of your actions.
Oh, so you can choose a definition and deny a fetus any rights because of it, but if I use a definition of the same word, it’s intellectually disingenuous? Be consistent man.
If you want an honest discussion about the rights of women vs a fetus, I’ll be glad to have it. I just ask that you stop playing games and actually discuss.
Worth an equal amount as another human life, you mean?
You perverting the other sides argument doesn’t make you or your argument better, just makes you come off as stupid and lacking any understanding of the issue as a whole.
There is no other human life involved. Or did you forget to read the next thing I said, that it’d be like declaring a tumor a human life and forbidding people from removing them. A proto fetal clump isn’t a person. It’s not a baby. Its not a human. It’s a clump. It has no thoughts, it has no feelings, it is not self aware, it is not an independent organism and is in all senses of the word a parasite. You can screw off if you think that a parasitic tumor has the same worth as a woman, that it has the same worth as a human being. And you’re only proving my point by even trying to justify it.
I perverted not a single fucking thing. These laws result directly, not indirectly but literally directly, in the killing of women and girls. Its murder to deny someone life saving medical care. You’re a sick misogynist if you defend any part of that. And the people who write these laws are not stupid, they’re not unaware, the intention is to result directly in grievous bodily harm and inevitable death of women and girls. Its murder, they know what these laws do. They know these laws don’t prevent abortion, and every single one of them will ship their daughter or their wife down to Mexico to get one if they have to. They won’t hesitate. There is no moral reason for these laws. These laws relegate women to a subservient breeding class deprived of the most basic fundamental human rights.
You’ve already shown who you actually are so ill be perfectly honest I don’t give a fuck what you have to say. I dont fraternize with misogynists, and defending the murder of women and girls unequivocally makes you a misogynist. Nothing you have to say after that has any validity whatsoever.
Don’t tell me what to do.
This is the actual Republican platform. The guy you’re arguing with doesn’t actually believe that protofetuses are worth trying to keep them alive. He just wants to be able to tell you what to do, and guess what? If he can force you to die over a nonviable protofetus, that means he has power over you, which is the entire point. He doesn’t care about you, save that he doesn’t want you to be able to keep him from killing you over a nonviable protofetus. In the pursuit of the ‘right’ people telling the ‘wrong’ people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the ‘wrong’ people from telling the ‘right’ people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder… anything goes.
Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).
I believe there is which is why we’re having this debate.
And I believe that what’s in their belly is a whole other person to consider their lives.
If someone believes that a fetus is essentially the same as my 2 month old niece, wouldn’t there be a moral reason to not want to them?
I understand your argument despite the hostility, I think if you calmly thought about it, you would think that there could be some moral backing, not that you would believe it or anything, simply that you can see how it could be a moral dilemma.
Okay this argument is hypocritical AF. First, your two month old niece isn’t about to risk killing you and then die. Second, if she was going to die without you giving her an organ transplant, do you think it’s okay for the government to force you to do that surgery against your will? What about if it wasn’t your niece? What if you’re 10?
You don’t respect the autonomy of a woman if you believe in forcing decisions on them about their body, hard stop. There is no wiggle room for you to argue that the fetus matters, because you wouldn’t apply that to any other situation in life. Stop acting like it’s the moral choice when it’s literally forcing woman to risk their lives against their will. Those women are already alive, why don’t their rights and lives matter to you?
I’m not arguing in the case that this post is of.
I was simply saying that no, it’s not my goal to enslave women. I just think the fetus is a human life that should be protected.
If you think “The fetus is a human life that should be protected” by the government, my reply would be exactly the same. It’s no different. The government protecting a fetus is the government taking away a woman’s right to her own life and body. Whatever grey areas exist in the debates that have gone on over the decades, this is not grey area. It’s black and white.
If I told you I wanted the government to protect homeless people’s right to live by forcing you to donate blood, I’m putting the homeless person’s rights above yours. If you want the government to force women to literally risk their lives for 9 months you’re putting a pile of cells’s rights above a woman’s. There is no fallacy here, there is no “but what about”, it’s plain and simple. Either you see women as humans with equal rights and value as yourself, or you believe a fetus has more rights than a woman. The only other possibility is you are the type who actually does want the government to force people to donate blood and organs. I met one once, quite the lunatic.
One could easily argue that the government letting the woman end the fetus’ life is ruining the fetus’ right to his/her own life and body.
the likelihood of a life risking event is fairly rare, and I’m for exceptions to that
Your first sentence says that even if I believe the fetus is a human life that should be protected, your reply would be the same, so why’d you switch your terminology back? You should have said “You’re putting a human life that should be protected above a woman’s” - once again, you try and pull this emotional terminology rather than being consistent.
I think all 3 have equal rights, and that none of us should be able to end the life of the others.
I agree, it’s a tough moral dilemma, which makes it hard to have honest conversations about this. That’s the biggest argument on the pro-choices corner, in my opinion. But the fact that it’s the mothers intentional actions that brought the life to the world makes me lean towards the pro-life side. Contraceptives are easily accessible, I’m for policies that make them available freely to all women. I’m for policies that increase sexual education on pregnancies. I’m for increased funding to the adoptive care system along with foster care systems. I’m for policies ensuring proper healthcare for pregnant women.
I wish more republicans will say this - if we want to be pro life - reduce unwanted pregnancies, provide care to pregnant women and fund options for the baby if they want to provide that baby to a more willing family.
No, not really. Unless you’re going to argue some stranger on the street who needs an organ donated to live is having their rights infringed by the government not forcing you to give them your organs to save them. The only difference is the location of the “human”. Also, regardless, if you are making this argument, then either you’re still saying the fetus has more rights than the woman, or the government shouldn’t intervene because both have equal rights.
I don’t believe a fetus is a human. But sure, put the word human there instead, because if your argument is that this unborn human’s life should be protected above a woman’s, you’re still taking away that woman’s rights.
The fetus can not live on its own. Saying an abortion is ending the life of the fetus is like saying taking someone off life support is ending their life. While technically true, are you the type of person that would also argue the government should disallow the removal of life support?
I’m sorry, but if you honestly think it’s up to a woman whether or not she gets pregnant, you’re incredibly out of touch with reality. Contraceptives aren’t 100% effective. Rape is a thing. Hell, humans make mistakes sometimes. Women don’t just go around getting abortions because they felt like it, it’s not a fun procedure and it’s not without risk. The biggest factor that makes this an irrelevant argument is there is literally no other example of a policy you would support that would infringe on someone’s rights in the same way. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of examples where people put other people’s lives in danger but they still have rights. Why focus on this one specific issue when there are so many others? The only answer is sexism. Not respecting Women’s rights. There are zero implemented policies that would force someone to feed someone else who’s dying, shelter them, donate blood to them, or do anything that would keep them alive. And I doubt you would argue for them if there were.
This is fine, but what’s not fine is supporting government policies that force the decision on women. Especially blanket ones with no exceptions.
I mean literally. I don’t know how you can sit here and say ‘okay, well someone might believe that it’s a human life in the womb, but absolutely no way in hell could they argue that a woman ending it’s life could be wrong!!’ - if you can’t grasp a basic concept that ending a human life could be considered immoral, we shouldn’t continue this conversation.
Once again - you’re the one that said ‘even if I believe the fetus is a human life that should be protected’ - so I don’t care if you actually believe it or not, you set that up to be the basis of your argument.
My argument is they are equals, and ending either life is something that is a moral question, not an objective answer like you portray it to be.
No, but I think that there should be some sort of consent (generally a medical POA would suffice) necessary to have someone make the decision to remove life support. If you can get a medical POA from the fetus, then I would buy into this argument.
It actually is. the vast vast vast majority of adults know that if they have sex, there’s a risk of pregnancy. You know this, right? That’s like me walking up at softball and swinging, hitting the ball and getting pissed because I didn’t know that swinging could end in the possibility of me hitting the ball.
99.9% effective for some, and combining contraceptives makes the rates extremely small.
I’m for exceptions in the case of rape.
Sure, but that doesn’t give one the right to end another’s life.
Did I say that?
There’s an argument that abortions don’t respect the babies lives, male or female.
If you have 1 year old baby and you don’t feed him and in result they die, do you not think there’s a policy that punishes you for this?
They didn’t force women to have sex. They didn’t force women to get pregnant. They are simply saying that if a human life is created, that it has inherent value and with such there’s a moral question on whether ending a human life without their consent is wrong.
I’ve already mentioned multiple times about exceptions. If you want to keep bringing this up, you can. My answer has stayed consistent.
To have individual rights, one must first be individual. If you don’t know the definition of individual, pick up a dictionary.
You act like just because a couple words are related it’s a ‘gotcha’ I can run with individual rights or human rights, or I can argue that definitions of words have no meaning besides conveying information, and they are actually fluid (see how the definition of ‘woman’ has changed).
Which would you like me to argue?
Someone doesn’t understand the words “non-viable”. You really should start by reading a dictionary before you start redefining words like fetus, life, and enslave.
Funny how you only care about the dead unborn child, not the living one or the mother.
I’m fine discussing viability, but don’t be rude when that wasn’t the topic in the comment you’re responding to.
The comment you’re responding to, I even said that I’m not arguing about the article, I’m saying more in general. My response was to someone saying I want to enslave women, because I’m pro-life.
In the specific case of the article, I agree with you, and this is an good scenario which many pro-lifers see an exception for.
If you’d like to converse, all I ask is that you’re not hostile. You can state your case and I can state mine, without being a dick.
No you can’t because your position is inherently dickish.
What a good way to shut down conversation. I think that’s what’s wrong with the political climate now days, you get in an echo chamber and any deviation from your echo chamber and you shut down conversation saying that any deviation from you is ‘inherently dickish.’
If you’d actually like to discuss, I’m here.
If you can’t help but to be a dick in your comments, I won’t care to discuss.
In this case there absolutely was another human life involved- the twin that’s life was at risk because doctors couldn’t abort the fetus that was going to die within hours of birth anyway. You don’t seem to care about that life.
Agreed! There were 3 lives. I wasn’t really talking about this case, more in general.
That user said simply because someones pro-life, that I want to enslave women. That’s not true at all, and I’m just saying that’s strawmanning our argument, that if you understand it, you would think that morally there could be a question.
Once again, and I’m downvoted to shit because people strawman the argument, I understand your side - do you understand my side?
Ok, I’ll engage you on this one, your position at least seems internally consistent.
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you. You recently found out that she even exists - you didn’t know you had a sister until CPS told you she’s your responsibility.
An action that risks your life could possibly save her… Let’s say a liver transplant. It has to be you, you’re her only living family member. And because of that, you’ll also be responsible for her - you can put her up for adoption when this is all over, but you’re still on the hook for the medical bills whether this works or not.
She’s guaranteed to die if you don’t give her the transplant, and you would almost certainly recover quickly on your own.
If you go through with the transplant, she has a slim chance to live, and an even slimmer one to have a decent quality of life.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky - at best you’ll see a lengthy and expensive recovery, after missing months of work you’ll be tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Complications could see you paralyzed or in lifelong pain, and it’s very possible both of you die on the table - maybe even likely.
The doctors are telling you it’s a terrible idea to go through with this, that the risk is unacceptable and it would be a mercy to just let her pass, but they’re obligated to go through with it if you insist.
Now, no one is stopping you from going through with it - if you want to put your life on the line for another, that’s your decision to make. You’re her guardian now, so it’s your decision if she should have to go through the pain for the chance at life, no matter how small.
That’s all well and good - I’ve seen enough to know that death is often a mercy, but if you believe otherwise there’s not much to say
Now, here’s my question - should the government be able to force you to attempt the transplant?
Some of these details might seem weird, but I was trying to stick the metaphor as close as possible to a very real scenario with a dangerous pregnancy. The only difference is - the doctor is performing an action here, but withholding one with the pregnancy.
You’re not though - pregnancy is not a lack of action. It’s an enormous commitment, especially when it’s atypical. It can even be a practically guaranteed death sentence - if the fetus implants in the fallopian tubes, it’s already not viable - at best you’re waiting for the fetus to grow big enough to rupture them, and hoping the bleed that causes doesn’t do too much damage before you can get help.
Not to mention if a fetus dies in the womb after it gets to a certain size, it rots and leads to sepsis - unclear laws and harsh punishments have already led to situations where doctors refused care for both of these life threatening cases, and in both these cases the odds aren’t slim, they’re none. In the second the fetus was already gone… Sometimes when they induce labor the fetus isn’t even in one piece… It’s pretty grisly
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
So… My root question to you is - Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
If so, how sure do you have to be that the other person will die no matter what you do before you’re released from the compulsion to put your own health on the line?
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
My actions didn’t bring her into this world. That’s a huge difference.
I agree there should always be exceptions for cases like these.
You see it as a potential life, I see it as a whole life. I thank you for understanding that it’s reasonable one might have this believe.
See my response above.
In law there’s a lot of ‘reasonable’ language - would a reasonable person think this is a likely event. In general, pregnancies aren’t life risking to mothers.
If I brought in my twin brother to a doctors office and said ‘hey, this guy is really making me sick, can you kill him for me?’ I think a reasonable law maker can determine whether that’s right or wrong. To some people, there’s no difference between the life of you and I, and a fetus.
You saying that you don’t bring your niece into this world sounds a lot like the responsibility argument, aka “you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”. You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent. Neither exceptions nor saying that you believe every fetus is the same as a fully formed human answer the question.
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else? Please, don’t side step again. Please, don’t give me “it’s not my fault they’re here, they had sex, therefore they have to do it”. Please, don’t give me “but I think the fetus has rights too”. How would you feel?
If an individual does the only action that would cause a human life to be created, I don’t think they get to kill that being just because it’s inconvenient. It’s about preserving a human life, not about punishment.
I showed how your hypothetical and where it doesn’t apply. If you’d like to use a different hypothetical, I’m fine with that. Why not use my child? If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it.
If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
You’re talking about me avoiding questions, which I answered already, but you ignored mine: If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
I answered that above, if you want me to expand on it I can, but I did answer it. I said:
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it. If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
Women in the U.S. now have fewer rights to their bodies than do corpses. So, unfortunately no, we aren’t worth the same as another human life or even a human death for that matter.
In this specific case, I agree, it’s a hard moral question with the twin involved which makes it harder.
I’m not speaking on this specific case, and most pro-lifers are open to exceptions, this being a prime example of where I think there should be. but the more broad statement that simply because I’m pro-life, means that I want to enslave woman, is absurdly wrong and simply perverting and strawmanning a fairly reasonable argument that a human life in the womb has inherent human life value.
Nothing hard about it, to have individual rights one must first be an individual. If you don’t understand the word individual pick up a dictionary.
Exactly. And some people truly believe it’s an individual.
See you’re almost there, you just lack the ability to empathize that one may think differently than you.
You can “truly believe” that the sky is falling too. Doesnt stop you from being wrong because you lack the basic understanding of the concepts.
So you think your argument is 100% factually correct, despite it clearly being an opinion.
I can admit that pro-choices have a reasonable argument, even though I don’t subscribe to that opinion. If you refuse to see any other argument on a divided issue, I suggest you learn about the other sides argument, and it either strengthens your position or gives you more nuance on the division. Wanna know why politics is so divided? It’s because people 100% think they’re right and they won’t listen to the other argument to understand it. You share that quality with the MAGA folks, I hope you learn to not have that awful quality.
If self-awareness was a disease you’d be the healthiest person alive.
It’s funny you say this when the comment you responded to, I literally said “I can admit that pro-choices have a reasonable argument, even though I don’t subscribe to that opinion.”
Can you say the same about the other ‘sides’ argument?
You missed the bit about reading the dictionary. Something that has never been detached is not individual. Your problem is a literacy one.
I did and came across this definition: ‘of or for a particular person.’
My niece, Amber, is a particular person, whether she was just birthed, or it was 20 minute earlier when she was in the womb and the doctors were telling my sister to push.
That’s called cherry picking. It’s intellectually disingenuous, not that you’d understand that concept given your displayed levels of reading comprehension, but ignoring the core definitions of the word to play gotcha games with a secondary definition of ‘person’ which you are also intentionally misrepresenting the definition of doesn’t make you right, it just reinforces that your intentionally malicious attempts to circumvent agreed upon language conventions and collective are necessary for you to even pretend like you have a leg to stand on in the conversation.
You literally cannot hold or present your position without first bastardising any attempt to communicate in good faith by arbitrarily redefining words.
In other words, you’ve proven yourself either disingenuous or stupid, which one comes down to your actual cognizance of your actions.
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Oh, so you can choose a definition and deny a fetus any rights because of it, but if I use a definition of the same word, it’s intellectually disingenuous? Be consistent man.
If you want an honest discussion about the rights of women vs a fetus, I’ll be glad to have it. I just ask that you stop playing games and actually discuss.