I was gonna title this “And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price you have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice” and then write “Stuck inside of America with the fascism blues again” here, but I’m not sure if that comes off like gloating and that’s honestly the last thing I want to do this morning.

  • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    1 hour ago

    I can’t believe the bullshit with the Cheneys. When a war criminal like Dick Cheney endorses you, you disavow them.

    Harris even got endorsed by Richard Spencer, who’s a white nationalist, and she didn’t say shit! What was she thinking? “I’ve got the neocon vote, now maybe I’ll get the Nazi vote”?

  • demizerone@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    30 minutes ago

    I switched my registration party from Democrat to Independent today. Tired of this shit. Enough is enough I’m voting my values from now on.

  • njm1314@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    6 hours ago

    Isn’t it amazing that both the female democratic candidates for president in our history have campaigned with war criminals and then lost. I wonder if there’s a lesson there?

  • wick@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    11
    ·
    edit-2
    3 hours ago

    So he’s saying his fake progressive base stayed home? How is that different to every other election? Appealing to moderates is going to swing the vote more than any attempt to appeal to his psychotic fans who don’t even vote in the first place.

    All these “this was important to me so it’s the reason we lost” takes should be ignored. Especially from a moron like Hasan. The guy was saying it’s possible he’ll get deported because Trump won.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      2 hours ago

      if they went out and voted they would have nothing to removed about, ergo, problem solved. They’re issues voters, they club themselves over the head to make a point, to themselves. Because apparently that’s relevant for some reason.

  • blazera@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    111
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    13 hours ago

    Democrats were too busy making sure progressive candidates were banned from participating in democracy.

    • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      1 hour ago

      The Democratic Convention had room on the stage for anti-choice Republicans, but none for Palestinian-Americans. I heard the speech that representative was going to give. There was nothing controversial in there. It didn’t mention an arms embargo. Having them present was too much for the DNC.

    • Allonzee@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      32
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      10 hours ago

      🇺🇸 MISSION ACCOMPLISHED 🇺🇸

      The reality is that neoliberals in power, and even many poor deluded neoliberal voters, would rather have Republicans in charge than people interested in addressing the intentional and by design inequity of our economy, despite all the social issues that very inequity causes and exacerbates they then falsely claim to care about, including abortion, which is often correctly an economic decision.

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/15/house-speaker-nancy-pelosi-opposes-banning-stock-buys-by-congress-members.html

      I voted blue out of harm reduction as I always have, without hope, just to minimize what little cruelty I have the power to potentially minimize, but they did this to themselves, as we never get a vote on our economic system or the cruelty it propagates, because (D) and ® are on the take, and I’ve yet to meet an affluent person of either party take issue with the economic system they benefit from despite our legions of homeless and barely subsisting people without the means to bribe officials on their behalf, and their very existence is proof of this economy’s failure as a lowly tool to better equitibly distribute goods and services in service to a society that an economy is meant to be.

      Our economy, and by that I mean our oligarch class that sits above the society they have no stake in, instead orders our society around through the legislators they own solely to maximize their private profit against all other concerns, and it’s beyond perverse. We’ve just been propagandized our entire lives to consider it to be the natural state of things by self-serving for profit media and captured state government’s capitalist indoctrinating curriculum.

  • anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    145
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    15 hours ago

    Democrats are completely out of touch. them expecting voters putting other issues on top of them making ends meets and food on the table (like mocking Vance’s egg prices ), all the while most polls showing the economy is the biggest concern with 38 % of all voters, is just simply delusional

    And they have lost both the popular and electoral college vote. meaning the real problem here is them.

    And don’t get me started on the propaganda of Iowa’s early voters polls showing a Kamala landslide just 2 days before election day. If you live in a left wing bubble and believe this shit, than this should be a hard smack back into reality.

    • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 hours ago

      Democrats are completely out of touch. them expecting voters putting other issues on top of them making ends meets and food on the table

      the economy is literally the strongest it’s been in a while, inflation rates are down, sure prices are still high but we’re literally at the tail end of the fucking tunnel here.

      God i wish people would stop voting on schizoprehnia economics, it’s so stupid.

    • jaybone@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      17
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      10 hours ago

      So I guess people actually think Trump and Musk are going to help them with their egg prices?

      • anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        14
        ·
        10 hours ago

        Yes, you might find it stupid or illogical, but they (trump , elmo) are seen as smart and successful, and they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term.

        That’s democracy, everyone has a say, whether their opinions or feelings are right or wrong. but instead of the democrats putting the work to meet these people they have chosen to belittle them. and that has cost them so far the Presidency and the Senate.

        • skulblaka@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          10 hours ago

          “they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term”

          They lived under fucking Covid in the last Trump term, when everyone was confined to their homes while supply lines disintegrated and the cost of food more than doubled, while ashes from rampant forest fires rained down from a blood red sky.

          • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            6 hours ago

            That was only the end of it though. Through most of it, many aspects of the economy were better, for most people. He was just as complicit in why inflation, housing costs, etc. got so bad. However, do you think most people understand how the free money given, mostly under Biden, as a stimulus to the populace, had little effect on the inflation vs financial institutions drowning in oceans of free money, for 20 years? Do you think most people are even aware that was going on? Do you think most of them understand how private equity, and changes in its regulation, caused the housing cost crisis, and not supply being overwhelmed by the demand of immigrants?

            I talked to someone I used to do underwriting, for things like mortgages, a few months back. He bought the immigrants buying up all the housing line. He just refused to believe private equity, something he definitely understands, is responsible, regardless of the fact that even those private equity institutions’ data say they are at fault. It is much easier to say “housing unaffordable, close border” than to have to address the massive systemic changes that need to be made.

        • jaybone@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          10 hours ago

          Oh of course they think Trump and Musk are very smart. That doesn’t surprise me.

          I’m surprised that they think Trump and Musk give a fuck about egg prices.

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          9 hours ago

          they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term

          I was disinfecting my groceries, and Trump was confiscating my PPE to send it somewhere else. I was getting Covid checks, which was nice, but it wasn’t exactly the same as working. I couldn’t leave the house for a while. I couldn’t buy certain mechanical things without going on a 3-month wait list. I knew some people who died.

          They think they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term, because the media and people like you spreading a certain type of mental landscape and inviting them to inhabit it. But that’s not actually what happened.

          instead of the democrats putting the work to meet these people they have chosen to belittle them

          If belittling the people could cost you support in America, Trump would be in prison right now.

          Now if you ask whether the media told people that Democrats were belittling them, now that’s a different story. That, to me, seems a lot more worth examining than it does to lecture the Democrats how important it is not to do some things they didn’t do, that the media said they did.

    • Squizzy@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      27
      arrow-down
      14
      ·
      12 hours ago

      The economy is in an objectively better position than when the GOP had office. The fault does lie with the dems, but if the economy was a concern as 38% of people said, then they would have voted democrat. The fact is they went too far right, floundered on their support of a genocide and failed to speak bluntly on matters such as healthcare outside of abortion.

      I think people say the economy when asked as a catch all when they dont know what to say.

      • anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        62
        ·
        12 hours ago

        Every one and their grandma knows that what people mean by the economy is their own financial well being and not the ability of billionaires and capitalist class on racking up more billions. the rest is pedantry.

      • RubberDuck@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        21
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        12 hours ago

        The “economy” does not help people pay their bills. And the unit of measurement only says something about the whole. The fact that a small portion of the people actually profit from this better economy is the issue, the unit of measurement has no bearing on normal people.

        And now, we will see what trade tarrifs will do, and gutting the administration and filling it with partisan players (loyalty > capability). And what gutting protection and health agencies will do.

        Now that it’s done I personally am morbidly curious what Trump, Vance, Kennedy and Musk can do to America in the next term (and possibly beyond). I really wonder if this will be as dark as it can be… but the project 2025 ghouls are scary as fuck.

        What is the over under on a national abortion ban in the US?

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          16
          ·
          12 hours ago

          https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/

          Trump fucked it, Biden unfucked it better than any other country in the world after Covid, and Biden got the blame.

          As is tradition. Universally. It’s one of the few things in American politics that always happens in exactly the same way, with no real wiggle room depending on how you want to measure things or who you ask for the explanation.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party

          Both rich people and working people do better under Democrats, and both rich people and working people do worse under Republicans. Always.

          • BlemboTheThird@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            14
            ·
            12 hours ago

            Exact same happened to Obama and the 2008 recession. Getting blamed for shit that happened before the election even took place. But Democrats refuse to play the blame game, people got to spout the lies about things being cheaper when Trump was in office unchallenged, and the Dems refused to promote solid solutions to even the most basic of core issues like antitrust, price controls, higher minimum wage, or even fucking climate change.

            And now, with so many fewer people turning out to vote for Dems, even Trump’s lies about voter fraud will have been validated in the minds of the morons, who will attribute those low numbers to harsher rules stopping the fraud.

    • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      edit-2
      10 hours ago

      I was so confused because the voting pattern on this comment is so dramatically different than it was on the comments early on in this exact same discussion here, or in other posts where we’ve been discussing basically the exact same thing.

      Sort the comments on this post by “old” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. You won’t see everyone claiming that the Democrats did nothing at all for the economy for the last 4 years. It won’t be all the other way, either, but you’ll see a healthy interplay between a couple of different main points of view. It won’t be all one way.

      I don’t usually come to the big communities on lemmy.world for pretty much this exact same reason, so like I say, I was just confused. I looked back on some of my other comments in other communities, where there’s actually a large-scale consensus that yesterday’s tragedy was largely the fault of the people who were holding out voting for the Democrats because they hadn’t done enough to fix everything up, including for example the economy from the last time the Republicans broke it all.

      One thing that I suddenly realized is that some of those comments with that very-different-from-this consensus are on Beehaw, which while it still has representation on it from the socialists and anti-liberals, whatever you want to call it, has defederated from sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world because they were at the time too infested with troll accounts. And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for this comment with all these universal upvotes…

      And lo, I was enlightened.

      Edit: Another funny thing happened. The parent comment that this is in reply to was the top comment, 3 hours old, when I made this comment, which was the only reply at that time. Now, in just the last half hour, there are suddenly 7 other comments and replies competing for space at the top of the page, instead of it just being the parent comment and this one as a reply. A lot of those are some variety of “Democrats fucked it” comment.

      My guess is that there will be a flurry of continued conversation, and then once things die down, it will all somehow coalesce into there being a few “Democrats fucked it” comments all the way up at the top of the page, with a whole bunch of upvotes, creating a narrative. I’m not sure. But that is how I would guess, if I had to guess.

      Edit2: Called it. Look at the default-sorted comments now.

      It doesn’t particularly matter. It’s over at this point. But it’s interesting to look at one particular microcosm on one particular platform of one thing that made it happen, I think.

      • alcoholicorn
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        5 hours ago

        And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for this comment with all these universal upvotes…

        And lo, I was enlightened.

        If you’re aware of someone botting votes, I’m certain the admins of all instances would like to know, why don’t you post the data?

      • sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        11 hours ago

        One thing that I suddenly realized is that some of those comments with that very-different-from-this consensus are on Beehaw, which while it still has representation on it from the socialists and anti-liberals, whatever you want to call it, has defederated from sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world because they were at the time too infested with troll accounts. And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for *this* comment with all these universal upvotes…

        I’m confused, is the implication that Beehaw users are upvoting the comments blaming the Drmocrats? How can they do that if they’re defederated?

        Actually I didn’t really understand your entire comment…can you ELI5 or do I need to up my ADHD meds?

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          10 hours ago

          I’m saying that the comments under this post look manipulated, especially when compared with comments on Beehaw, which makes sense considering that beehaw excludes Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works which is where a ton of troll accounts come from.

            • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              10 hours ago

              Yeah. My initial presentation was unclear. Partly because it’s such a weird conspiratorial thing to believe that I kind of had to come at it sideways.

      • anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        12 hours ago

        largely the fault of the people who were holding out voting for the Democrats because they hadn’t done enough to fix everything up,

        I don’t know how someone can blame voters for advancing their interests if their finances are in the red. and are holding their vote in protest of the democrats.

        I don’t know how are the discussions on beehaw but over the rest of lemmy, it feels exactly the same as on reddit: well off Americans blaming the struggling other half for turning their backs on the Democrats, it isn’t Just Harris who didn’t deliver, it is the whole fucking party. Liberals won’t understand the struggle of people living paycheck to paycheck. and how they are not entitled to their vote if they let the neo-Liberal system fuck with the struggling class.

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          12 hours ago

          https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/

          Like I said: Trump fucked it, Biden unfucked it starting in January 2021 and got it under control. And, because the media laps up a good narrative like no other, Biden got the blame for what Trump did, when the US recovered better from Covid inflation than pretty much every other country in the world.

          If you’re struggling now, and “holding your vote in protest of the Democrats,” then I withdraw a little bit of my sympathy. You’re going to get it right up the ass very hard in the next few years, if you did that, and although it won’t be completely your fault you will have helped make it happen.

          • anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            11 hours ago

            The economic struggle and inflation only fell on people under Biden’s presidency and vastly after Ukraine war. what people live under is what matters. not that a trump presidency will alleviate this. but you shouldn’t expect people to reelect the same team that choose to extend a war in Ukraine and send 100 billion to Ukraine while their own are struggling.

  • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    45
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    14 hours ago

    So this proves we need to rebuild or create a true opposition party. Running as a moderate party just continously pushes America politics right. Those that wanted a fully different option just stay home on election day. This isn’t a both sides argument, just facts. We can’t keep failing in this way when the writing is on the wall. We need to change the leadership in the dems. They all need to go! Yes race and gender played a role but Trump is projected to get 6 million less votes this time around than last time. So that means the base for dems just didn’t vote. Yes that’s upsetting but trying to shame and meme them into voting will never work. Give people something to vote for, not just against. Republicans get it but using fear and promising a better life for their base. (even at the expense of others they at least give that to their base.)such a sad day in America and the only thing that’ll save us is to come together as a community and create a party that represents that community.

    • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      10 hours ago

      Last time we tried to make a new party it failed and called spoilers.

      Last time we tried to do grassroots on the federal level, they pushed him out and said you’re the bad guys for supporting him.

      They say to push the next person to the left but when you ask “Hey why are we bombing brown people when we can help Ukraine?” you’re called a Russian asset who hates Americans.

      I don’t think Americans want actual policies that help. Every time someone tries to help on all levels of engagement to government they’re shafted, outbid, marginalized, and then blamed for when the milquetoast candidate loses. And pure evil just wins, again.

      We’ve been fucked in 2000, the DNC should have used 2016 as a wake up call for what went wrong, and instead learned nothing.

    • Apepollo11@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      32
      ·
      13 hours ago

      Running as a moderate party just continously pushes America politics right.

      100% this

      In the UK the left-wing party, Labour, very drastically moved themselves to the centre, rebranding as New Labour.

      Since then, the Conservatives have increasingly adopted far-right policies and everybody just accepts it as normal.

    • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      22
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      14 hours ago

      Give people something to vote for, not just against.

      Fuckin A right, buddy. The Democrats spent 90% of their campaign funds spreading a message of “we’re not trump” when trump is obviously very popular. I can’t even articulate how stupid that is.

        • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          edit-2
          13 hours ago

          Which means that by making “we’re not him” the primary campaign message, you’re immediately alienating everyone who may like him, even if they were thinking about voting against him. Georgia is a pretty good example of what that campaign message resulted in. There are enough Republicans to win elections and enough undecided to swing elections. Alienating 45% of the constituency is a ridiculous strategy.

          • alcoholicorn
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            13 hours ago

            immediately alienating everyone who may like him

            People who like Trump vote Trump, and are going to vote republican anyway.

            There are enough Republicans to win elections

            So adopting republican policies didn’t get them the wins, are you suggesting the democrats would have won if they adopted republican policy AND pretended to respect Trump?

            • GeekySalsa@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              13 hours ago

              I think their point is that the campaign should’ve focused on reasons to vote for them, not just against Trump. Then maybe swing voters could’ve been swayed.

            • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              12 hours ago

              I think we need to reform the Democrat party or wait for the collapse of the US so a progressive change can happen.

              • alcoholicorn
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                11 hours ago

                Reforming the democrat party isn’t easy.

                The DSA managed to win control of the Nevada branch. Before the handover of power, the outgoing dems spent the entire treasury and ran up a debt with their consultant buddies, and essentially burned any infrastructure could on the way out.

    • perspectiveshifting@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      12 hours ago

      Does anybody know if there’s groups organizing already that are trying to cause that kind of reform? Would be good to spread the word if somebody has the ball rolling already. I think a huge portion of the voter base feels disenfranchised by not having an actually progressive platform to vote for.

      • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        12 hours ago

        Doubtful. Best case scenario is the old leadership literally dies off. Because any real progressive organization is deemed a Iranian, Russian, or communist and gets zero funding. Sad truth is, if all the progressives pooled all their none essential resources and money they still wouldn’t scratch the amount of money the two major parties spend on TV ads. Honestly. A collapse of the US is more likely to bring about a progressive change than any “conventional” processes.

  • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    92
    arrow-down
    54
    ·
    edit-2
    15 hours ago

    Swinging left wouldn’t have worked either.

    There is no high horse. There is no right path. Us Americans have the critical thinking skill of an ant. The left should have fought dirty with a full blown propaganda machine, populist lies, and blatant collusion if they wanted to win, simple as that.

    It needs a leftist Trump.

    What are Republican’s gonna do… demonize democrats even more?

    • alcoholicorn
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      122
      arrow-down
      10
      ·
      15 hours ago

      Swinging left wouldn’t have worked either.

      It absolutely would have. Progressive policy is insanely popular and easy to campaign on by virtue of being designed to help everyone. Do you think Bernie had such high favorably ratings because they have a thing for 80 year old white dudes?

      Tell people “healthcare will be free” or “We will cap rent and build housing that won’t cost more than 3x local median income” and then people can’t afford not to vote for you.

      Biden could have cut off arms to Israel, and hundreds of thousands of students so politically activated they’re willing to risk their degrees to protest would be doing everything in their power to keep Trump out.

      Instead they sent the police to kick the shit out of those kids, at great expense to the colleges, and called them antisemitic.

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        7 hours ago

        Why then do countries with existing left parties and proportional representation elect further and further right-wing parties in Europe?

        It’s simple: They promise easy solutions for complicated problems. Banning immigration will fix all crime and the economy, opposing LGBTQ+ rights will ensure a return of the better olden days, climate change is nothing to be worried about etc etc

        And even people depending on social support will gladly shoot themselves in their feet if it means someone else will have it worse.

      • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        12 hours ago

        It absolutely would have. Progressive policy is insanely popular and easy to campaign on by virtue of being designed to help everyone.

        Hence all the down-ballot leftists taking office. Oh wait.

        Are you seriously suggesting that American politicians are not craven enough? As if there’s some wealth of easy wins they’re just leaving on the table?

        • alcoholicorn
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          12 hours ago

          https://www.dataforprogress.org/polling-the-left-agenda

          This is just the first result in google, you’ll find similar data except in polls that really torture the question’s wording to get a specific answer.

          American politicians are not craven enough?

          What do you mean craven? Democrat politicians aren’t afraid of the base, they hate the base and stand up to us all the time, most visibly gaza. It’s republican politicians that fear their base.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        25
        ·
        15 hours ago

        Tell people “healthcare will be free” or “We will cap rent and build housing that won’t cost more than 3x local median income” and then people can’t afford not to vote for you.

        1. It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.
        2. They told people “I won’t do mass deportations or order the assassinations of my enemies” and it didn’t work. Why do you assume that this other stuff would?
        • theparadox@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          18
          ·
          13 hours ago
          1. It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.

          The policies are extremely popular and universal. Doesn’t really matter in a politicalcampaign if you struggle to achieve those ends. Trying is important and failing gives you ammunition against those who oppose extremely popular policies for next campaign.

          1. They told people “I won’t do mass deportations or order the assassinations of my enemies” and it didn’t work. Why do you assume that this other stuff would?

          The bottom line is that the average person isn’t listening for anything besides “how is the candidate going to help me because I feel like I’m drowning”. The right scapegoats something and promises to fix your problems by hurting the scapegoat (immigrants, minorities, socialists, whatever). This is a lie, but it’s just as, if not more, direct of a solution so some voters will support them.

          Harris had attention when she said things like stopping price gouging and providing in-home elder care. Those were extremely popular ideas that she didn’t focus on. Instead, she pivoted right.

        • alcoholicorn
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          24
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          14 hours ago

          It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.

          The US president is probably the single most powerful position in the world between explicit powers and people who serve at his pleasure and can be replaced at will, and undefined powers that that extend as far as anyone is able to stop them, as we saw under Trump. If they just flagrantly broke the law and kept doing it until the SCOTUS and others actually stopped them, the dems would be far more popular than just throwing their hands up and saying "better things aren’t possible.

          There’s a lot of indirect ways they can get what they want done, whether it means appointing an AG and other department heads who will punish people who don’t go along or using the military’s vast legal protections and resources.

          They told people “I won’t do mass deportations

          1. That’s not saying how you’ll improve people’s immediate conditions, just that trump will make them worse

          2. You can’t credibly say that when Biden deported more people than Trump.

          • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            10
            ·
            13 hours ago

            If they just flagrantly broke the law and kept doing it until the SCOTUS and others actually stopped them, the dems would be far more popular than just throwing their hands up and saying "better things aren’t possible.

            This is basically what FDR did with a lot of his social and work programs during his presidency. He’d establish an agency or authority or whatever, regardless of the legality, and by the time the court’s or whoever made the decision to close it, they’d have 5 others going simultaneously, and/or they’d make another one. And the process would start all over again.

            • alcoholicorn
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              ·
              edit-2
              12 hours ago

              Yup. The nice thing about policy that helps everyone is that it’s incredibly unpopular to kill. Biden could have burned student debt in the most visible way possible, and then dared the SCOTUS to create new debt. If they took the bait, you’d have 46.2 million people ready to vote for anyone who promises to expand the SCOTUS.

      • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        31
        ·
        15 hours ago

        It’s easy to get students to protest. They’re young, it’s exciting.

        Voting isn’t loud or angry, so it doesn’t feel effective. It feels like actual work. And so they skip it.

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          41
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          15 hours ago

          I’m sorry, forgive me if I don’t take advice from the party that just lost. After Kamala picked Walz she was up by more than 5 points in many states that she was trailing in at the end of her campaign. People skip voting when you pick unpopular policies like Praise the Cheney’s, No Different than Zionist Joe, Billionaire Mark Cuban Is the Greatest, and Hollywood Loves Me.

          • snooggums@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            26
            ·
            15 hours ago

            Yup, other than picking Walz each new thing the campaign did made me less excited aboit voting for Harris. I would have rather had Walz lead the ticket, at least he would have been an unknown white guy that the right wing propaganda would have had trouble vilifying.

            • John Richard@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              16
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              14 hours ago

              I don’t think the white guy thing is as important as at least he would have been someone that wasn’t directly tied to the White House that has been lying about genocide for the last year, or apartheid for the last 4 years.

                • alcoholicorn
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  12
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  14 hours ago

                  OK, but the people who are that racist and sexist are voting republican anyway. Of the dems many mistakes, running a black woman wasn’t one of them.

                • gAlienLifeform@lemmy.worldOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  14 hours ago

                  I don’t think you’re wrong but I also have to add that I won’t accept that we just can’t run black women for offices for that reason

                  e; I should have read this thread further, it looks like other people are already discussing this

                • John Richard@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  14 hours ago

                  I’m not pretending racism and sexism doesn’t exist, but that didn’t cause her to lose. I hope one day you’ll come to accept that.

    • snooggums@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      22
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      15 hours ago

      They don’t need to lie, they just need to get better at being direct and stip pulling punches or taking the high road to avoid offending moderates or whatever their stupid logic is.

      Instead of cozying up to Cheney, just call Trump a felon constantly, remind people about how he put migrants in cages and is now using durect nazi rhetoric against them. Those aren’t lies, and they jind of half assed brought them up, but they need to actually lean in hard and constantly.

      • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        13
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        14 hours ago

        They did call him a felon constantly! They plastered everything he says in every outlet, screamed his threats at the top of their lungs.

        No one cares!

        That doesn’t get you in people’s facebook, tiktok, and youtube feeds.

        Dems need a candidate who’s already famous. They need one totally unchained, unhinged, who would say awful but barely not illegal things in public, so they’re plastered on every news outlet constantly. They need someone who’s a little iffy about vaccines, who will print money and send people fat checks with their face stamped on it, who will straight up collude with the powerful in public, so calling it out does nothing.

        They need a liberal Trump.

        I’m not sure who it would be… maybe a big pop star that kinda loses their marbles? Think Taylor Swift. But the dems are not going to win a Trumpist election running someone like Bidden, Harris, Bernie, AoC or whatever.

            • NuclearDolphin
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              2 hours ago

              Dems need a candidate who’s already famous. They need one totally unchained, unhinged, who would say awful but barely not illegal things in public, so they’re plastered on every news outlet constantly.

              They need a liberal Trump.

              What chuds like about Trump is that he jokes around and appears to be passionate about what he talks about, and instead of backing down when challenged, will face it head on and double down. Someone who will spit in the face of his enemies without apologizing after. Get anyone who can riff and mock their enemies while standing firm on their positions.

              They need someone who’s a little iffy about vaccines, who will print money and send people fat checks with their face stamped on it, who will straight up collude with the powerful in public, so calling it out does nothing.

              I dont think they actually like any of this, just the way he does it inspires confidence. They care very little about the actual policy specifics.

              That’s all they really want is confidence. They aren’t confident in their place within a changing world and want someone who exudes that confidence so they can delegate their trust to someone who has it where they have none.

              I only said Hasan because he’s funny, comfortable being an asshole, confident, and isn’t a pushover.

    • blaue_Fledermaus@mstdn.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      15 hours ago

      But the left in the USA is like half a dozen people, they don’t even have a party, how would they organize it?

      Because Democrats are just a more “moderate” right.

  • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    39
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    16 hours ago

    Normalizing republican extremism is about the only thing modern neoliberalism has accomplished, and likely why the same billionaires donate to both.

    They want the return of feudual society, they just know the only way they get it is if the only other option is a shit sandwich.

  • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    69
    arrow-down
    50
    ·
    16 hours ago

    I don’t even care whether your attitude is, “Oh no, we fucked up,” or you go with option B which is what you’re saying. If you have to wonder whether you’re gloating or not, then fuck you.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      70
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      16 hours ago

      I’m not sure what your problem is. Is nobody allowed to point out the failures in the Democrat campaign?

      • WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        46
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        edit-2
        15 hours ago

        No post mortem. Blind support for neoliberalism is the only way.

        “Now’s not the time”

        “Nobody could have predicted this”

        etc…

        As one of the dozens of people who are not American, I was chatting to my cousin the other day, and he said that after seeing the amount of dead kids that have come out of Gaza this year, and taking a mental health week off work due to the anxiety of watching the world not give a shit, he hopes Trump gets elected and America collapses into civil war… That Americans suffer for what their government has done, and is doing. He’s not a bad guy. Bad guys don’t have breakdowns from watching foreign children murdered.

        I can’t logically support his view, but I completely emotionally understand it. He knew Trump would be objectively worse for humanity, but is a fascist genocide that kills 2 million people better than a fascist genocide that kills 5 million people? At that point you’re really just splitting hairs between failed states, and systems that deserve to be burned to the ground. After enough chances, opportunities, and desensitisation, you want the schadenfreude of watching the American electorate who voted for Trump shooting themselves in the face, destroying their livelihoods and lineage, along with all of their false patriotism and exceptionalism. I still suspect the conserva-russian PsyOps to be the main source of Trumps win, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel’s genocide is the straw that broke the Dems back.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        14
        arrow-down
        13
        ·
        15 hours ago

        With sympathy, panicked thoughts about what to do next, and quite a bit of horror? Absolutely.

        With a casual blaming attitude, waiting for someone else to make it better? Sure, they’re allowed to, just like I’m allowed to tell them to go fuck themselves.

        • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          6 hours ago

          Panic doesn’t help anything. Neither does horror. We survived one Trump presidency, we’ll survive this one, despite it being monumentally worse.

          Do what you can to help those you can around you. Work in and grow the support structures in your local community, family, and social circles.

          Panic leads to stupid, rash, not well thought out decisions. It should be avoided as much as possible while you take a long, honest, realistic look at the situation and evaluate what is and isn’t in your power to effect.

          You’re right that passive defeatism isn’t helpful, but you don’t have to go straight to the other extreme of emotional turmoil.

          • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            6 hours ago

            I have to be honest, I am panicking a little bit.

            Nothing will change instantly, or everywhere all at once, but it could get very bad, and not even a long time from now.

        • alcoholicorn
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          19
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          15 hours ago

          With a casual blaming attitude

          What should my attitude be after decades of saying “triangulation doesn’t work, going to the right to chase ‘moderate republicans’ just depresses turnout.” and watching the dems do this over and over and over while getting accused of being a secret republican because I point this out?

          • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            12
            ·
            15 hours ago

            You know what else doesn’t work?

            Not voting and letting Trump get elected.

            That shit’s going to do more damage to the left than a million Hillary Clintons depressing the turnout.

            (I have more I could say on it, especially pertaining to the difference between accurately describing sins of the Democrats which are depressing turnout versus making up imaginary sins of the Democrats which people will then believe which will depress turnout, but I’m not planning on a long exchange so I’ll leave it there.)

    • alcoholicorn
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      21
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      16 hours ago

      What’s the alternative? Democrats do not fail, they can only be failed?

    • MudMan@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      16 hours ago

      There will be a lot of this. Same thing happened with Hillary. I’m not American, I don’t need to discriminate here, I’m writing off all of the US.

      But if you’re there… yeah, that anger seems justified. When the shit that’s about to happen happens don’t let them hide behind the blame game.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        13
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        15 hours ago

        I wasn’t talking about Hasan Piker, really. I don’t agree with him, of course. Let me put it this way: If he’d flipped it around and talked about what a good strategy it was for Trump to get all his followers heated up on lies and ready for violence, get billionaires and media to go in the tank for him, and coordinate with enemies of the US to destabilize our democracy in order to get elected so he could keep kicking out the safeguards and guard rails once he’s back in and firmly above the law, seize on any imperfection or compromise in the Democratic side and play it up to the point that a whole bunch of suckers on the left buy into it and depress the vote so he can win, and unfold whatever’s coming now… well, if he’d said that, then he wouldn’t be wrong. But looking at it purely from a standpoint of strategy, in this context, is missing a massive other aspect. Talking about the Democratic strategy, which I think Piker is probably doing sincerely here, is missing the point in the same way. Even talking about how elected officials can get the support of the voters seems like it’ll probably be almost a moot point by 4 years from now.

        What I was talking about was OP and the little gang of people who’ve been spreading the narrative that the Democrats are the worst thing, basically indistinguishable from fascism, and are now having trouble hiding their eagerness to double down on assuring everyone that it’s all the Democrats’ fault and this whole thing was inevitable. If any of you guys are inside the United States and honestly believe this, have been withholding support until something more to the your liking comes along, thinking that is a good way to make progress… oh my brother, just you wait, and I hope it’s not too bad for you, when it comes.

        That’s why I posted the meme. If OP’s really in the US and on the left, they’re going to be learning a whole bunch of new songs to sing over the next couple of years, I think.

        • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          10 hours ago

          But why would you talk about the republican strategy? After-all Trump got almost as many votes as he did back in 2020, only ~2,5 million less. And it’s not like their strategy wildly differed from what they did 2020. Trump got his followers heated up, he tried to coordinate with foreign entities to find kompromat, he tried to undermine the electoral process, he tested the safeguard and guard rails Jan 6. The only really new thing he did was having billionaires be more prominent in supporting him. But none of it changed his votes.

          The question you should be asking is “If trump got roughly as many votes as he did back in 2020, how did he win both the electoral college and popular vote?” I don’t see how that question could be answered by looking at the republican party, they didn’t do anything new and their result was also the same. IMO the answer to that question lies with the democratic party. There is something the democrats did or didn’t do that cost them 14 million votes (81 mil in 2020 vs 67 mil in 2024). And realistically a large part of those 14 million voters were “Fuck Trump” voters who were sick and tired of his shit. But this time Trump went full fascist and somehow people were more apathetic towards his?

          I kinda agree with Hasan on the part that trying to appear more moderate when your opponent is a full blown fascist doesn’t really do anything. You just come across as a lite version of fascism. Maybe democrats should’ve stayed more in opposition to the republicans because when the voters don’t want fascism, they also don’t a lighter version of fascism. I don’t know what went wrong, I’m not a political pundit. I just see republicans getting roughly the same amount of votes and the democrats losing ~20% of the votes and I just don’t see how that is not the democrats fault when they’re the ones who lost the votes.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          15 hours ago

          Yeah, no, we’re on the same page. Whether you pin it on the OP or Piker. There are a bunch of presumably leftist pundits that have been asking to see the left’s management all through this process (and I mean since 2016) and will continue to act offended that anybody would suggest there is a responsibility in not being persuaded when the alternative is a fascist anarchocapitalist cabal.

          As last time, the response to any mention of this will be “it’s their fault for not convincing me”, which has never been a legitimate argument but will be outright insulting if (when) things start to go poorly.

          A better case is that the entire country shifted right, especially fed by a mass of new protofascist youth, but you don’t get extra credit for only being part of the problem and not the whole problem.

          In any case, like I said earlier, I have no obligation to split hairs. The US has failed as a country and as a people. They can apportion blame however they see fit. For the rest of us it is now a matter of how to build an international community of democracies in the upcoming climate. We all have to write off the US and find a new way forward without them.

    • gAlienLifeform@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      14 hours ago

      I’m not gloating, I just said I didn’t want to seem like I was because I’m not trying to antagonize my political allies. I’m sorry if it seems like I am because that really is the last thing I want to do. I want Republicans to lose elections and I’m just putting forth a theory of why they didn’t last night that seems persuasive to me because I’m still operating under the assumption we’ll have more elections (which, like, very TBD, but either way I think building a coalition of like-minded people will be important).

      • SoJB
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        11 hours ago

        I am absolutely gloating.

        Four fucking years of telling liberals exactly what will happen.

        Four years of liberals plugging their ears and closing their eyes, continuing to spew their neoliberal fascist rhetoric.

        To any liberal reading this: yes, I fucking told you so. Guess reality was on my side again. You deserve Trump.

        As if the party that wholeheartedly accepted genocide as a means to an end was going to do shit for any queer folks or leftists if they won.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        13 hours ago

        Obama won his election after being a good bit to the right of either Biden or Harris. I think most of what’s changed since then is the awesome power of the influence operations which succeed at creating alternate realities for people where Trump is important to vote for, and Harris is important not to vote for, depending on the person being targeted.

        I’m not trying to be closed-minded about it, and maybe my meme as applied to you was unfair. I’m a little bit on edge when talking with the “what the Democrats did wrong” crowd on Lemmy, since a lot of them also like to make up imagined sins for the Democrats, helping to create that alternate reality, to go alongside any well-intentioned criticism they are giving.

        The bottom line is, the Democrats lost for a variety of reasons some of which were their fault and some weren’t, and we are thoroughly fucked as a result. I don’t think people realize how bad it’s going to be.

  • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    arrow-down
    14
    ·
    edit-2
    15 hours ago

    Everyone from Sanders to Dick fucking Cheney endorsed Harris. Anyone who was paying any attention and wasn’t a literal fascist voted for her. The direction of the swing seems irrelevant.

    The swing fell short because it’s not so much about direction than strength. Macron in 2017 ran the most “hard center” presidential campaign imaginable. Difference is it worked, not because his centrist program was particularly novel but in large part because he is a very charismatic figure and managed to create a voting base of hopefuls for himself. The same can broadly be argued about Obama (whose first act as president was to essentially absolve the previous administration and Wall St of their many sins in case anyone forgot how moderate he was).

    Harris ran on a platform of… “I’m not him”. Which to any reasonable person is an obvious “yeah OK”, but unfortunately most Americans are apathetic cretins who will refuse to move their asses to a polling station if the guy on the telly doesn’t promise them a blowie at the voting booth. And the Democrat establishment is simultaneously too big to fail and incapable of producing an actually charismatic leader.

    Well, all that and the obvious election interference from Musk, Putin, and the ontological inability of traditional media not to platform literal fascists.

    • SoJB
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      11 hours ago

      “How did you vote on your California ballot with several highly contentious ballot measures, Madam Vice President”

      “I will not speak on this 5 days before the election.”

      Leftists have been telling all the libs exactly what this path would lead to.

      Looks like liberals ushered in a fascist regime, again. Funny how that always happens.

      • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        13 hours ago

        I mean, she did try other things as well and that characterization is a bit reductive. More correctly I think we can say that “she’s not him” is the only thing the Sanders->Cheney spectrum could ever agree on and nothing else she did “stuck”. Sanders wasn’t happy about the pro-israel stuff and Cheney probably wasn’t happy about the “tax the rich” stuff.

        Choosing one clear ideology and sticking to it might sound great to the progressives on here (and to people like Hasan), but I don’t have the hubris to think she or anyone within the Democratic party establishment actually had the charisma to pull that off either (maybe Michele Obama but she didn’t wanna do it so that’s the end of that plan). Especially considering Harris had like 4 months to pull a campaign together and did not have any previous popular good will to rely on.

        4 months is very short and no matter how right you play your cards a lot of voters will not know anything about you other than “she’s not Him”. Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose (not that she did everything right but I think a postmortem will need to look back way further than that at Biden and Hillary and those who supported them).

        • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          10 hours ago

          She had an entire platform, but when I was actively trying to review it, I was constantly presented with Trump’s name & face on the Democrat’s website. That’s really poorly thought out.

    • gAlienLifeform@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      14 hours ago

      (whose first act as president was to essentially absolve the previous administration and Wall St of their many sins in case anyone forgot how moderate he was).

      I think this very thing led to the 2010 tea party wave election that fucked us for a decade and a similar thing has happened here, except it was the seeming inability of the Biden administration to hold Trump and his supporters accountable and not going after corporations making record profits during an inflationary crisis (“So how would you recommend they have done that?” Great question, I will let you know when I have a good answer).

      e;

      Well, all that and the obvious election interference from Musk, Putin, and the ontological inability of traditional media not to platform literal fascists.

      This absolutely played a huge roll (also, voter suppressing laws passed by GOP governments), but I don’t know how to change any of that without having a Democratic party that consistently wins elections first

      • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        13 hours ago

        The FBI apparently learned some lessons on how to deal with Russian interference since 2016 and made some arrests this time around. Way too little too late though, and in January Trump’s cronies will take over and that’ll be that. Other countries should take notes though and start being much harsher on Russian trolls and their puppets. Unfortunately Von Der Layen recently fired the guy who was prosecuting Musk over Twitter so I’m not too confident anyone in power learned their lesson. Which is mind-boggling because russian-backed far-right parties are a meaningful electoral threat to people like Von Der Layen.

  • deathfoam@infosec.pub
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    5
    arrow-down
    19
    ·
    9 hours ago

    ah yes, houthi loving, anti-american, antisemitic hasan who wants to flee to japan now. fuck him for brainwashing his audience into not voting. gotta wonder if he’s been cashing russian checks too. unamerican traitor and useful idiot for the MAGA cult.