cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/17869503
I know I’m going against the grain here, I’m obviously no Harris lover, but also I’d prefer to be allowed to continue existing. If that’s controversial in leftist spaces then maybe I don’t want to spend any more time in leftist spaces.
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“I’m voting for the party that doesn’t actively want to kill me”
“Pfft, classic shitlib take”
I’m tired, boss
I’ve literally had someone ask me what makes me think I deserve to live more than Palestinian kids.
This is where we’re at.
They say as if their position is any better for Palestinians either.
Don’t you see, they have absolved themselves of responsibility by making themselves a bystander. Actually pretty smart. When “they” come for us and start looking at the voters rolls these guys will get a pizza party while the rest of us go to gas chambers.
Don’t worry, these are the same people that are going to reclaim the levers of power through force. It just has to get bad enough for the rest of us so that we have no choice but to defacto join their side.
Pretty considerate of them, really. We oppressed them by suggesting they make their vote count for something. They put the country in turmoil and now depend on us to bail everyone out. Fairs, fair.
The poor man’s version of the rich doomsday ‘I’m gonna be king of my own private island!’ lunatics.
Right, so that’s why we should let the guy who would kill Palestinian kids and trans people win. Equality
I don’t like the idea of claiming a whole group I disagree with is comprised of bots or paid agents trolling to create division, but at this point, the only plausible alternatives to that are either those people are having a severe martyr complex, or just are so overly privileged that they are divorcing themselves from reality and don’t/can’t comprehend the consequences of what they’re advocating, essentially treating this whole thing like a sports game.
Or maybe both, and are trying to throw trans people, black people, women, etc. under the bus to fuel their martyr complex in their stead.
project 2025 was created in 1980 and we’ve already enacted over 75% of it so far.
during that the entire time we managed to thrive despite the considerable impediments and we did it without the democrat’s help. in fact: biden used to be one of our most vocal enemies.
don’t let the propaganda scare you: i was there and lived through it and we did well anyways.
Telling people in danger that their attempts to save themselves are contemptible is nothing but cynical callousness.
It’s children whining about how life is unfair but instead of actually trying to do something about it now, they’d rather feel smugly superior as they do fuckall and “wait for the revolution” or whatever.
Do I believe positive change is quick or easy? Fuck no. It’s hard work and it takes a ton of us working together. I harbor no illusions that my own singular voice will ever matter on a large scale, and I will happily take up my arms to defend the rights of those whose only crime is existing while lgbtq+/poc/whatever, but I’m gonna vote and campaign and everything I can do in the meantime.
Whether we’re headed for a cliff as a species or not is irrelevant, I don’t feel the need to hit the gas or sit back while mocking the people who are trying to stop the bus.
This 100%, I actually own firearms in the event I might have to defend myself from a fascist takeover. BUT I’D REALLY RATHER NOT THINGS COME TO THAT. I don’t want to ever have to use them, so you can bet your ass I voted for Harris to try and prevent that scenario as much as possible.
Yeah, people who see the long list of minorities that would be negatively affected by a Trump presidency and insist that there is no difference between the candidates are telling on themselves: Who gets the presidency would make no difference - for them. And they have no empathy for anybody else.
Very true. Just, the weird thing is I’m not sure if this comment is intended as pro-Harris-vote or pro-Palestine-boycott.
it’s manipulation at best. we’ve enacted 75% of project 2025 so far since 1981 and we thrived without republican or democratic help. in fact, biden used to me one of our most vocal enemies and ran for president during that time and we’re still here.
I mostly lurk and prefer to not get involved in politics, but GOOD GOD I’M SO GLAD I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY. It’s so exhausting.
What sucks is that voting isn’t swearing a blood oath that turns you into a slave of neoliberalism and prevents you from doing direct action: you can do both. Voting isn’t going to save Palestinians (and it’s a bitter pill to swallow, I know), but it’s going to save lots of other vulnerable minorities (who never really asked to be born in the imperial core!), and still provide breathing room for direct action that can help Palestine.
Like… even if you don’t care about the safety of trans people, pragmatically speaking it’s immensely easier to organize as leftists in a neoliberal regime than it is in a fascist regime. Just look at what happened to the KPD when they proclaimed “first Hitler, then it’s our turn”. (Yes, the SPD backstabbed them during Weimar - RIP Rosa Luxemburg - but that pales to the Nazis basically rounding them all up and sending them to the gas chambers!) I don’t want history to repeat. Please don’t let it repeat.
Your comment exposes what it is that’s so deeply disturbing about this wave if Leftist Nihilism. They’re basically saying “if we can’t save everyone, then we might as well all die.”
This. I vote for the best outcome my vote could achievably help to bring about and lets not forget about primaries and getting in better canidates from the get go. But voting is only one thing.
The SPD insisted on voting for the “lesser evil” of Hindenburg to stop Hitler rather than cooperating with the KPD, who they denounced as being just as bad as the Nazis. Hindenburg then proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor, which is exactly what allowed him to come to power.
What sucks is that voting isn’t swearing a blood oath that turns you into a slave of neoliberalism and prevents you from doing direct action: you can do both. Voting isn’t going to save Palestinians (and it’s a bitter pill to swallow, I know), but it’s going to save lots of other vulnerable minorities (who never really asked to be born in the imperial core!), and still provide breathing room for direct action that can help Palestine.
we managed thrive since our government started adopting project 2025 in 1981 and also without democrat support. (democrat support came later after most the blood, sweat, and tears were done and we only accepted them because reagan and bush were worse). we survived and thrived those decades, despite its HUGE downsides; so i see project 2025 as nothing more than propaganda to energize kamala’s base who can’t remember before 2008.
however this is the most cogent argument i’ve seen anywhere for supporting this perpetual minority making machine and i think it’s only flaw (besides the 2025 propaganda) is its narrow focus on this this election cycle instead of considering the big picture:
democrats have been moving rightwards since the 1980’s and, every time they’ve won, they’ve entrenched that capitalist affirming step that they believe helped them win the election. this has created a eroding downward trend on protections for things like civil rights and the environment. we’ve now descended to a point where genocide is back on the menu again like it was 100 years ago and i’m afraid of what else will show up on the menu next time after the democrat’s entrench a genocide as a tolerable political tactic.
i suspect that it’s a moot point since most of us here have been holding our nose to vote for the lesser evil for the last 45 years and doing so has, nonetheless, painted us into this corner of choice between an democratic active genocider and a republican who only wishes he was.
Lmao people acting like how trans people are treated is a fraction of what Palestinians are going though. I’m sure if you went to Gaza you’d be voting third party to end the war at all costs.
Voting isn’t going to end the war. Not voting is also not going to end the war. Stop wasting your time and good will by chastising people for voting strategically. All you’re doing is sowing leftist division.
Voting strategically is only voting Democrats if you live in a swing state, otherwise it’s voting third party to popularize getting out of this duopoly
The Republican strategy is to contest the election in every state, county, and polling station. So no matter where people live, we need to high voter turnout to avoid a contested election. We do not want a repeat of the 2000 election.
Jeez I really feel like I live in a democracy! I have all these parties to vote for, but only 2 can be elected. Also I can’t vote for one because they’re facist. So I live in a democracy but I must vote for the Democrats, regardless of whether I want to.
…
Also it’s the Democrats telling me all this. But the Democrats aren’t facists. The two parties aren’t the same.
No, I, a registered independent, trans person, am telling you this. People who are actually on the left are telling you this.
We live in a democracy. If we want to keep living in a democracy we need to vote for Kamala, because Trump is running on ending on our democracy and starting a christo-fascist dictatorship.
Even if by some miracle you manage to convince enough people to vote 3rd party that the Democrats take notice, what makes you think it’ll change anything? The most the Democrats would do is adjust their rhetoric; money makes policy, not votes. You’re doing more harm than good when you try aggressively guilting people into voting 3rd party when the election is literally days away. Refocus your energy towards more productive things.
but voting third party isn’t going to help end the war at all Trump has made it get clear that if he wins he will push Israel to destroy Gaza faster. explicitly. he wants them dead. a third party vote doesn’t work in a first past the post system.
If everyone voted third party, we would elect candidates who actually want to end the war, so yes voting third party does help end the war.
In a more realistic world, it pressures the Democrats to change their mind about Gaza to get the third party voters back
We live in a first-past-the-post system so everyone is systemically disincentivized to vote third party. Voting third party acts as a spoiler for the Democrats. And historically when Democrats lose they move further to the right. The most useful course of action is for everyone to vote for Kamala so we can start shifting the Overton window to the left.
It’s as if voting wasn’t the one single thing you could do as a citizen.
It IS the only one that can’t be twisted by media interpretation, demonized and attacked with military and police, or straight up ignored.
Well, except for all the ways that voting is broken and doesn’t work. Gerrymandering and the electoral college and what not. And how your options are conservative neoliberal genocide supporter or outright neo fascist.
You couldn’t vote for an actual progressive candidate if you wanted to. The entire American political system is designed to prevent that exact thing from happening.
The larger of a lead someone wins with, the harder it is for those tactics to work. Please everyone, vote.
That’s presuming that Kamala has any interest in changing those things. The progressive wearing down of voting rights has continued mostly unabated for the last 50 years. It’s not like this state of affairs is new or something.
The details of who you vote for are another discussion. I’m simply saying voting is the only thing you can do that is guaranteed to contribute to the direction the government goes in, no matter how small. All other activity is important, but not guaranteed to result in anything.
I dont think voting itself is harmful on it’s own, no. I do understand why Palestinian Americans will not vote for people committing acts of genocide against them. And more to the point, I just recognize that this is a death spiral of western democracy right? The Democratic party is unwilling to do literally anything that would interrupt the neoliberal status quo of America. This aligns them with conservatives. They fight back against workers rights and protect the military industrial complex. The Democratic party has done shockingly little to ever actually fight back against Trumpism and modern fascists in America. They could have done significantly more, but many of those actions would jeaopardize american neoliberalism. It’s their priority to preserve it.
What I’m saying is, even if Kamala wins, we will be back here in 4 more years. Each time losing more ground to fascists because elected officials will do little more than token gestures to stop them. I hope she is elected, and I hope I’m wrong and she does an aboutface and codifies reproduction rights, codifies queer rights, and dismantles the supreme court and the electoral college. Biden could have done these things too.
And does voting stop you doing the other things?
It does if you treat it like the media does, billions of dollars in campaign coverage in the year leading up to election day and then nothing until it’s time to do it all over again.
It a pretty easy and very impactfull thing to do… so go vote first and the do whatever else you are suggesting after.
not voting is a strawman used to manipulate you.
Fascism is bad for everyone. This is not a choice between two minority groups. This is a choice between democracy and fascism.
The only way to help the Palestinians is to vote for Kamala. Kamala wants a ceasefire. Trump has made it clear he wants Israel to finish what he started.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
This is what accelerationism gets us. A bunch of people who are willing to let every group of people burn, because they have been fooled into thinking that things can only get better by making them worse. Things can always get worse. We have to make things better for them to get better.
If tankies and accelerationists cared about Palestinians or trans people or anyone they would vote for Kamala without a second thought. Many of these people are from the US. They can’t handle that they’re from a country that isn’t morally perfect, so rather than try to fix, they want to see it burn to the ground. It’s a kind of state of unhappy consciousness where their country’s misdeeds make them feel as if they have blood on their hands by association.
Most people recognize that beyond our vote and activism we have very little say in the day to day operations of our country. We can sleep at night by acting in a way that is useful to accomplish our goals. Tankies and accelerationists cannot. So the course of action they propose, doing nothing to impact the election out of protest, is not useful to us.
Trans tankies be like:
They sure have a lot more faith in the Democrats’ moral compass than we do.
Do you have more faith in Trump’s?
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Did trump drop out of the race? Because from what I gather it’s still a very close race that can end up being decided by the supreme court.
The fix has been in since Biden dropped out, all that remains is to see what sort of stochastic terrorism Trump’s supporters get up to once reality starts settling in.
The US voting system is undemocratic and a huge percentage of the population seems to be out of their mind. Trump winning is still a very real danger.
The only part of that you’re wrong about is the last bit. Trump winning isn’t the danger, the threat is his tantrum after he loses.
Okay, with that confidence I suggest you put a couple of grand against Harris winning.
That doesn’t make any sense.
“Put money against someone winning.” = “Betting that someone will win.”
Or what didn’t make sense?
Clearly, if you put your money where your mouth is, there’s a lot of money to be made:
Maybe stop watching so much MSN
It’s too much of a 2020 flashback, I hope the polling is way off.
You would have made a pretty penny if you bet on Trump in 2016
Electoral betting odds more closely reflect the opinions of capital than voters, precisely because of who has more disposable money to put where their mouth is. In 2016, that was the liberal status quo because it meant business as usual. In 2024, after having a taste of blood in the water from tax cuts and deregulation in Trump’s first term, they want more.
You would have made a pretty penny if you bet on Trump in 2016
My statistics professor did, which is what got me interested in the space. In general, he said, the betting odds are more reflective of reality because the further they are from the truth, the more money to be made by people who can detect that.
So even if the odds are off, the chances of them being off by a significant amount are low.
(And yes, it was unlikely for Trump to win 2016. The fact he did win doesn’t change that fact)
I don’t watch TV, and if I had anything to spend I’d have put in my bet the moment Biden dropped out.
I made another post and comments about this in leftymemes to go against some of this rhetoric everyone is pushing, and wouldn’t you know… my comments are being removed. I’m glad the left is suppressing trans voices now, I feel so seen 🥰
Yup, turns out I’m proper banned xD
Honestly idgaf anymore, hope they have fun in their echobubble.
It would be great if she was actually campaigning on helping those in red states and not just saying well that’s their law deal with it
It would be great if people would help build some enthusiasm for Kamala. Trump wants to round up homeless people in camps. Republicans want to remove protections against discrimination in the workplace for trans people so they end up homeless. This is an easy choice. If you care about anyone vote for Kamala, because we will all be worse off under Trump. edit: typo
It would also help if she or the dnc would campaign on protections rather than just saying we’re not trump.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/why-wont-democrats-kamala-harris-embrace-trans-rights-oped
Who is voting Republican down-ballot over Gaza for this take to function?
The electoral college favors low population states. Republicans historically do well in low population states. In order to correct for this overrepresentation, Democrats need high voter turnout. So not voting or or voting third party depresses that high voter turnout Democrats need to win. This is why tankies and accelerationists spend so much time falsely conflating Kamala and Trump. They know they need to discourage as many people from voting for Kamala as possible to get Trump elected. So Vote!
I think it’s more the third party voters (which effectively are Republican voters, by taking away Dem votes). And abstainers, which, ditto.
Third party votes and abstainers for the presidency are by no measures ‘taking away’ votes from anyone.
It only can be that way if there are zero Republican voters voting third party or abstaining for any reason. We know this isn’t true. The Democratic Party’s express electoral strategy is to appeal to and attract those voters, ostensibly at a greater return rate than voters they turn off or drive to third parties.
It’s a risky strategy and it failed once before in 2016.
this was proven to be a straw man since the report than jill stein siphons away more trump voters than kamala voters.
Can you explain in detail how my California 3rd party vote will help Trump?
The Republican strategy is to contest the election in every state, county, and polling place. We need high voter turnout to prevent contested elections all over the country. No matter where people live, even California, our votes matter.
So you think trump will spend money trying to to flip my district that went 78% for Biden in my state that went 63.5% for Biden so I cannot exercise my constitutionally protected right to do anything but support a corpo prosecutor.
As someone who supports third party, there was no chance of me voting for Kamala this election so you can stop with the made-up arguments
Are you saying that 2/3 of the country consistently vote Republican? In that case, how is it possible for the Democrats to ever win?
It’s unfortunate that there’s a kernel of truth in both! Obviously red guy is bad and if you’re thinking in the medium-term of the next five years (the context of the election) then it really is that simple.
I do want to emphasize though that there is a lot that has to be done outside the ballot box. Even if you just want status quo, a Harris government would need to be badgered heavily to actually pass the sort of legislation needed to mitigate the imminent threat of climate change (in addition to most other policy changes you’d want or need).
Climate Man isn’t going to swoop down from the sky and save the world. Normal people need to see politics as a proactive, regular part of adulting. If you’re planning on voting this year, consider also having the goal of (if able) attending a protest or donating to political organizations you agree with this (or next) year! Lets make government suck less c:
Obviously, the real fight only starts once the election is over. But right now the order of the day has to be defeating Trump because everything and I mean absolutely everything will get a lot worse if he wins. Harris will only implement progressive policies if there is grassroots pressure for her to do so. Trump will send the military to deal with grassroots pressure.
If by grassroots pressure you mean “massive social upheaval and widespread protest and civil unrest” then yeah.
But she’s always going to support the Palestinian genocide. She’s said so herself. There’s no circumstances where she will stop funding and arming the IDF.
The Biden administration has given an ultimatum threatening to stop military aid if aid to northern Gaza doesn’t increase, with a deadline shortly after the election.
They’ve already murdered in large excess of 50 thousand people, likely over a hundred thousand when accounting for missing and undocumented deaths. Nearly a year ago they opened machine gun fire on a crowd of people trying to get flour. It’s been a genocide this entire time. He has not stopped military aid. Kamala herself has literally said,
“I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself against Iran and Iran-backed terrorist militias. My commitment to the security of Israel is unwavering,” “When we think about the threat that Hamas, Hezbollah… Iran present, I think that it is without any question, our imperative to do what we can to allow Israel to defend itself against those kinds of attacks,”
She is open about the fact that there do not exist any circumstances where she will stop funding the IDF and the actions of the IDF. Israel has claimed to be “defending itself” for the past year. The Palestinian genocide is what they mean by defending themselves.
I’m trans too. I am horrifically afraid of what a fascist American government can and would do to us. This entire election cycle has been a literal nightmare. We can’t just pretend reality is different though, we can’t just pretend that the Democratic party have not themselves been active participants in the genocide of a colonized ethnicity in the middle east. It’s depressing but it’s the truth. They’ve blocked the ICJ from taking action, they’ve blocked UN motions to take action, they’ve consistently worked against recognizing the state of Palestine, and they have funded and armed a genocide.
The day after the votes are finished counting, drag is going to become Harris’ sworn enemy. Every day until that happens, drag is going to do everything drag can to help her. It’s not about being right, it’s about doing right.
I hadn’t clocked that drag was using “drag” to refer to drag, and thought drag was saying that drag as a hobby was going to become the sworn enemy of Harris. Was super confused for a minute.
I agree, but my main point is that when I went to vote it took me 11 minutes. 11 minutes to but my voice in the election. And that does not have to be mutually exclusive with political action, I have been involved in action groups (though not as of lately due to me focusing on my studies, but if a Palestine protest starts on my campus you can bet I’ll be joining it), and I’m not making the argument that voting is all you should do. Far from it. But, it is something that is quick and easy to do and if enough people do it, it could prevent a fascist government that makes change far more difficult than it is now.
but also I’d prefer to be allowed to continue existing
project 2025 is propaganda for kamala supporters and the anti-trans laws are propaganda for tump supporters.
project 2025 was created in 1980 and our government has already enacted 75% or so percent of it before trump ever made it to office. we thrived during those decades enough to shift popular support in our favor thanks to hollywood and we did it without the support of the dnc. (dnc support came after most of the blood, sweat, and tears were already shed and we only picked them because they were slightly better than reagan and bush and we immediately encountered buyers’ remorse with clinton).
also: the choice between diet genocide and full-fat genocide is propaganda. mostly because of the virtue signaling around project 2025 and mostly evident from the intense levels of manufactured consent that encourages participating in this system as a democrat or republican only and applies intense levels of peer pressure and misinformation against participating in any other form.
we’ve both been forced into this dichotomy because republicans and democrats have been taking away our options and weakening our alternatives for decades; things will continue to get worse if we keep cooperating in the way they want us to.
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Dude I watched a coup attempt on live tv. Everything is propaganda but sometimes it’s also accurate.
Libs: Voting is just the start
Also libs: If you dont blindly support Kamala you’re a Russian bot, also how dare you protest it makes me very uncomfortable. Shut up and let us sign this bipartisan legislation with fascists.
If you are not voting for Kamala, you are supporting Trump. That logic is pretty easy to follow.
I wish I lived in a world that simple.
Guess I’m a Trump supporter. Kind of weird how we got here, given I’m a center-leftist who supports the Socialist party
Communists wish they had the power and influence that liberals keep implying that they have.
How does this even relate to the post?
You’re trying to explain liberal behavior with logic. That was your first mistake.
“A vote for not Harris is a vote for Trump”, lmao. Absolutely laughable. Just like how Biden is the only viable candidate and a vote for Harris is a vote for Trump, right?
You know what it’s called when you’re not allowed to vote for anyone but one person?
As if Dems who have enabled the Overton ratchet for the past 50 years will give a shit about trans folk. Because clearly the current Dem admin has taken so much action against anti-trans violence and discrimination.
The same Dems who are running to the fascists as fast as possible. The same Dems enthusiastically supporting a literal genocide. The same Dems bragging about filling their cabinet with literal republicans. The same Dems who are receiving endorsements from absolute right wing war hawk neoliberal ghouls and bragging about it.
I guess y’all are just going to prove the leftists were correct again.
You know what it’s called when you’re not allowed to vote for anyone but one person?
The liberal mind cannot comprehend this (so they just downvoted you instead)
