Traffic on the single bridge that links Russia to Moscow-annexed Crimea and serves as a key supply route for the Kremlin’s forces in the war with Ukraine came to a standstill on Monday after one of its sections was blown up, killing a couple and wounding their daughter.

The RBC Ukraine news agency reported that explosions were heard on the bridge, with Russian military bloggers reporting two strikes.

RBC Ukraine and another Ukrainian news outlet Ukrainska Pravda said the attack was planned jointly by the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the Ukrainian navy, and involved sea drones.

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    1 year ago

    What? Do you have anything that shows the demographics significantly changed at all? The population was 76% russian in 2014 before Russia took it. You have data that shows that significantly increased?

    • barsoap@lemm.ee
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      No it was at 67.9%, up from 60.4% in 2001 down from 67% in 1989. Up from 6.6% in 1850 when Russification really started. Also note the suspicious absence of Tatars during the times of the Soviet Union and their return afterwards. And TBH I trust those censuses 2014 onwards about as much as I trust Russian referenda.

      Also, “people speak Russian at home” is not, by a long shot, the same thing as “want to be part of Russia” much less “want to live under <currenttsar>'s boot” or “want to suffer yet another Holodomor”. Crimea had a referendum just as the rest of Ukraine did and it didn’t want to be part of Russia by a good margin. The question of “part of Ukraine or independent” was more split, but that turned towards “part of Ukraine” as Ukraine failed to treat Crimea badly and independence would be difficult for such a small country in such an exposed situation.

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        1 year ago

        And TBH I trust those censuses 2014 onwards about as much as I trust Russian referenda.

        Then just speak to some people physically in Crimea? You’re on the internet it’s not difficult to seek out and have conversations with people in different places in the world.

        but that turned towards “part of Ukraine” as Ukraine failed to treat Crimea badly and independence would be difficult for such a small country in such an exposed situation.

        Ukraine did treat Crimea badly though? Are you completely unaware of the political turmoil in Ukraine prior to any of this? Increasing ethnic persecution against Russians and finally banning the russian language is what started the separatism in these regions.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          Then just speak to some people physically in Crimea? You’re on the internet it’s not difficult to seek out and have conversations with people in different places in the world.

          Of course. Because that’s totally not something the FSB would do to sniff out partisans and shit. There’s a war going on in case you haven’t noticed and truth is always its first victim.

          Increasing ethnic persecution against Russians and finally banning the russian language is what started the separatism in these regions.

          Neither was there prosecution nor was the Russian language banned. The Ukrainian army largely operates in Russian, FFS.

          I suggest you have a good look at the reliability of whatever place you get your information from.

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Why are you quoting a member of the Golden Dawn as if Nazis were a reliable source of information? Are you a Nazbol?

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                  Lmao I had no idea he was to be honest. You’re right. Let’s get something else then. (And no I’m certainly fucking not.)

                  A couple of western media articles discussing the split the existing language law was causing in the country:

                  2000: Ukraine wages war on Russian language

                  2012: Russian language debate splits Ukraine

                  2012: Ukrainians(far right) protest against Russian language law

                  2014(when the law actually occurred): Ukraine Revokes Linguistic Rights

                  This last one is the most interesting, also 2014 from Time: Many Ukrainians Want Russia To Invade

                  Within two days of taking power, the revolutionary leaders passed a bill revoking the rights of Ukraine’s regions to make Russian an official language alongside Ukrainian. That outraged the Russian-speaking half of the country, and the ban was quickly lifted. But the damage was done. With that one ill-considered piece of legislation, the new leaders had convinced millions of ethnic Russians that a wave of repression awaited them. So it was no surprise on Friday when a livid mob in Crimea attacked a liberal lawmaker who came to reason with them. Struggling to make his case over the screaming throng, Petro Poroshenko was chased back to his car amid cries of “fascist!”

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    Remember how that law never went into effect and in fact regions have the right to have secondary official languages? Including Russian?

                    Also, that it wasn’t a law furnishing new modes of repression but a law repealing the granting of rights to minority languages? And the law was by an interim government? And Right Sector and shit massively lost votes after all that?


                    Yes, Ukraine had a political divide roughly among the Russian/Ukrainian native language rift, caused by Russia (Empire, USSR) by the Russification programme, by Russia (Federation) stoking it with hybrid warfare. Ukraine was torn between going to the west, into the EU (NATO wasn’t nearly as popular), or towards Russia’s economic bloc. Becoming part of Russia was never on the table, that’s always been a small minority position of a minority position.

                    That very much changed towards majority support for NATO accession after the annexation of Crimea (and, no, Crimeans not being asked doesn’t explain the shift), and to absolutely overwhelming after the 2022 invasion.

                    Russia overplayed its hand. Massively: They could’ve kept Ukraine in alignment limbo, maybe even have them turn eastwards, but they just had to get greedy and annex and invade. They’ve also lost all the hybrid warfare opportunities among e.g. the Russian minorities in the Baltic countries.


                    And maybe you should read more primary sources instead of random Anglo press articles. Or read the articles, for that matter, things like

                    Lviv’s language war was ignited by the death of a popular local folk-singer, Igor Bilozir. At an outdoor cafe one evening in May, he and a friend were playing his Ukrainian ballads while a group of Russian youths at the next table were singing songs in Russian.

                    The Russians warned Bilozir to stop singing in Ukrainian. He refused. They came to blows. The fighting spilled along the street and the 45-year-old slumped to the ground after a blow to the head. He died three weeks later in hospital, becoming for Ukrainian nationalists an instant martyr.

                    “He was killed because he sang songs in his own language,” says Mr Parubi. Russian newspapers turned things around and said the dispute was over the right to use the Russian language.

                    which isn’t exactly playing into your narrative.

                    Didn’t you, just some comments ago, talk about talking to actual people? I have three Ukrainian families living in neighbouring flats, having fled the war. One of them ethnically Russian, though the kids are refusing to speak the language.

                    Yes, there had been grievances. Grievances so bad it justifies an invasion? Hell no, not just not the same ballpark, but not even the same galaxy. Moscow, OTOH, is checking all five points (one would suffice!) of the definition of genocide. It doesn’t surprise me, or their parents, in any way whatsoever that the kids are refusing to speak Russian, they’ve seen shit.

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            1 year ago

            Of course. Because that’s totally not something the FSB would do to sniff out partisans and shit. There’s a war going on in case you haven’t noticed and truth is always its first victim.

            This is just closed mindedness. You refuse to take on any new information, you have made up your mind what the situation is and utterly refuse to even consider listening to anyone with first hand experience.

            Neither was there prosecution nor was the Russian language banned. The Ukrainian army largely operates in Russian, FFS.

            No. This is just factually incorrect. The flashpoint that started the separatism was the repeal of the language laws that made Russian (and many others) one of the many state languages in these regions (majority russian ethnicity regions). This occurred in 2014 immediately following the Maidan coup/revolution.

            This law change by the new far right bandera supporting government was the final straw in a long line of things that had led up to it, and was what created popular support for violent separatism among the local populations. Many people saw it as existentially important to separate themselves from Ukraine as they believed the Bandera supporters sought to kill or deport them all.

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              The flashpoint that started the separatism was the repeal of the language laws that made Russian (and many others) one of the many state languages in these regions (majority russian ethnicity regions).

              What you’re citing there is a question to the Commission, not a research paper. The guy posing that question? A Greek Nazi, becoming MEP on a Golden Dawn ticket. Here’s the answer:

              The Commission is not aware of any ban on use of minority languages in Ukraine. In February 2014, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine adopted a law, revoking the language policy law of 2012, which has however been effectively vetoed by the then Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, and therefore has not entered into force.

              The law adopted in 2012, giving the local and regional authorities the right to determine regional languages in addition to Ukrainian for contacts with public bodies, has been largely positively assessed by the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe in its opinion. At the same time, the opinion noted: ‘the question remains whether, having regard to the specific situation in Ukraine, there are sufficient guarantees, in the current Draft Law, for the consolidation of the Ukrainian language as the sole State language, and of the role it has to play in the Ukrainian multilinguistic society.’

              Yes, the Ukrainian government has been actively trying to make Ukrainian the de facto, not just de jure, lingua franca of Ukraine, to halt secondary effects of Russification.


              I’m not even going to address anything else you said. A Tankie relying on hallucinations of a Nazi to make points, how fucking classic.

              Learn some research skills and source criticism and then maybe you’ll be able to contribute to discussions.

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                What you’re citing there is a question to the Commission, not a research paper. The guy posing that question? A Greek Nazi, becoming MEP on a Golden Dawn ticket. Here’s the answer:

                Yeah this was just pointed out to me. Which is why I went and dug out some other stuff instead, I’m not particularly fond of relying on that one and won’t be using it in future.

                A couple of western media articles discussing the split the existing language law was causing in the country:

                2000: Ukraine wages war on Russian language

                2012: Russian language debate splits Ukraine

                2012: Ukrainians(far right) protest against Russian language law

                2014(when the law actually occurred): Ukraine Revokes Linguistic Rights

                This last one is the most interesting, also 2014 from Time: Many Ukrainians Want Russia To Invade

                Within two days of taking power, the revolutionary leaders passed a bill revoking the rights of Ukraine’s regions to make Russian an official language alongside Ukrainian. That outraged the Russian-speaking half of the country, and the ban was quickly lifted. But the damage was done. With that one ill-considered piece of legislation, the new leaders had convinced millions of ethnic Russians that a wave of repression awaited them. So it was no surprise on Friday when a livid mob in Crimea attacked a liberal lawmaker who came to reason with them. Struggling to make his case over the screaming throng, Petro Poroshenko was chased back to his car amid cries of “fascist!”

                Is this article a hallucination too? This aggressive response is quite unnecessary. Have a more academic conversation.

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                  1 year ago

                  Yeah this was just pointed out to me.

                  By me I just couldn’t let it stand so I called it out twice, but there’s no need to duplicate the whole thread.

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                    Oh lol we’re having the same conversation twice? I didn’t even notice I often don’t look at usernames. Sorry.

        • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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          There is a loooong road from “has political turmoil” to “wants to be part of Russia.”

          Florida has political turmoil. Doesn’t mean they want to be part of Spain because some people there speak Spanish.

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              We’ll take it. The land is valuable, and the current residents will voluntarily flee to the rest of the USA, horrorified by our free healthcare.

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            1 year ago

            Sure. But I assure you that when russian ethnicity people read twitter and see nafo and other morons (like half this comment section) saying all russians should die blah blah blah it only ends up pushing them to russia for safety. Even Navalny’s people who I despise say this:

            Like, what do you people expect the russians in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk to think exactly when they read half the shit they’ve seen from libs on Twitter, reddit, etc etc who have all behaved indistinguishably from fascists in their bloodthirsty calls for russian blood? They see it as attacks on themselves, not the russian army, not putin, they see it as ethnic threats and it has pushed fencesitting russians with family in both ukraine and russia (about half are mixed families) over to the russian side because they just don’t feel the west can be trusted. They see them as wanting all russians dead, which you can hardly blame them for with all the behaviour you’ve surely seen online.

            • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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              People are mean on the Internet? People are also mad at Russia because they’ve invaded a neighbor. People were calling out “death to America” for invading Iraq. It’s how the world works.

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                1 year ago

                Sure. But the point is that all those ethnic russians in all three of these regions, who are the majority of the population and were the majority before 2014 by a large margin, all have been pushed to russia because of it.

                The political reality in these regions is that while before there were some mixed views on the issue, particularly among those with mixed families, now there are almost none among the majority russian ethnic population. Which is something of a problem if you consider yourself to believe in democratic outcomes.

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        1 year ago

        Ehh besides the rude ones most of this is alright. I think only 2 people were particularly rude and they got blocked so meh. Some other conversations here actually got quite interesting @barsoap@lemm.ee seems mostly alright once we get off the topic of the war.