Can we all please admit that we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides? (Except maybe some special cases, like RTS) It’s a glorified typewriter, and we (PC gamers) use it only because at some point, it was all that we had and we just got used to it. There must be something better than a panel of buttons.
Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.
Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.
You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.
As you mentioned, it’s still a slab, that is only good for a few genres of games. Basically, a flat controller without the analog sticks, which is opposite of ergonomic, and you don’t use that with a mouse.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
I didn’t set a goal to pitch something better, I just pointed the fact that we use unoptimized hardware and hopefully somebody is working on something better.
What do you imagine being better though? Like just in general? Some sort of gamepad that has directionals that you use in your left hand while you use the mouse with your right? Something totally different? Like what else is there?
In the very least, something more rounded and ergonomic than a row of buttons, something that lays out the buttons in such a way that they are more easily reachable without moving or contorting your hand. Fewer buttons for the pinky, more buttons for the thumb, which is now pretty much only used to hit spacebar. Maybe a big analog stick that sits under your palm, so you can tilt your entire hand to move (IDK how how useful that would be, but you wanted me to imagine something), leaving your fingers free to perform other actions.
A lack of analog controls is definitely an issue. Having digital buttons on keys that are either 100% on or off loses a ton of fine control.
Playing GTA and need to make a slight left while driving? On a gamepad you just slightly tilt the stick left to make a smooth turn. On keyboard you have to do a bunch of short little taps on A (and D when you inevitably oversteer) to stop yourself from jerking the wheel left.
I remember really wanting a Logitech G13 when they came out but I could never justify spending the money on one.
For movement I would take something like a HOTAS over keyboard. For example in games with multiple movement speeds finding the right speed is rather cumbersome on keyboard because the key press is an on/off and not a scale.
Similarly on keyboard movement is restricted to 8 directions. If you need to move in some other direction most people actually use a mouse to compensate for the lack of movement options because it’s too cumbersome with a keyboard.
There are benefits to using keyboards but there are places where you can use something better. Analogue input simply gives better movement options.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.
Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.
I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.
But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.
Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.
My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.
I think it stuck around because the primary purpose of a computer is still information handling, and thus almost all of them require a keyboard. And since keyboard is always included and is “good enough” people just kept using what was available. History is littered with cases where something stuck merely because it was good enough and easily available. The QWERTY layout itself is a good example. There are layouts that are much better, yet 99% of the keyboards still use it. Because alt layout keyboards are scarce and using them requires relearning. All while QWERTY is good enough.
I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the 360° analog inputs of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping X% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.
That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.
I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)
Yeah, I’m not strictly comparing KBM vs. gamepad. As you mentioned, keyboards are just not ergonomic, and that’s what I was basically saying. So you understood my point precisely, I, too, want to see more options.
You could configure a thumbstick to operate how you want whereas with a board you can never have fully porpotional control.
On top of that, most controllers have directional pads.
As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method even for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.
As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.
I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me
My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.
I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.
Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door.
On the azeron your thumb has a joystick which is w a s d then that leaves all your other fingers with multiple keys each so you don’t really have to move your hand around that much. Still need a keyboard around for typing though in chat or a game where you name stuff
So true. I distinctly remember instances while playing GTAV with controller in the left hand and mouse in the right. lol
Would love to find a dedicated peripheral that i liked to be used similarly.
There are some exceptions but I generally agree. The keyboard isn’t anywhere as precise as an analogue stick. Ideally I would use something like HOTAS for movement and mouse for aiming.
Game pads that use keyboard keys with custom switches and unique form factors are where I think we’re heading. Like the razer tartarus v2, which I have. It is great for gaming, better than a standard keyboard that uses identical switches, but still not ideal. It is similar enough to the layout of a keyboard that finger positioning can be the same and the learning curve is smooth.
It’s closer to your “ideal” but not there yet. And I completely agree that we need to go in that direction.
I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.
I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.
I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.
As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.
When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.
It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)
The irony is, the top world record runs on Trackmania (a not-a-hot-wheels track time trial driving game) tracks are done by keyboard drivers. Driving a high performance car on a crazy, loop-de-loopy jumps and bumps and speed boosters tracks is quickest with … WASD controls.
It’s not really that ironic. Something more ergonomic with the same tactile short travel buttons would’ve worked even better, you can just also do it with a keyboard, albeit not as comfortably.
Can we all please admit that we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides? (Except maybe some special cases, like RTS) It’s a glorified typewriter, and we (PC gamers) use it only because at some point, it was all that we had and we just got used to it. There must be something better than a panel of buttons.
Huh? On non-gamepad games (i.e. Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game) Keyboard is completely fine. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
This is the first time in my life I’ve ever heard this opinion lol.
Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.
And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.
For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.
Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.
You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.
that’s a hitbox, you’re talking about a hitbox
which is just a slab with less buttons on it
As you mentioned, it’s still a slab, that is only good for a few genres of games. Basically, a flat controller without the analog sticks, which is opposite of ergonomic, and you don’t use that with a mouse.
It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.
You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.
You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.
Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.
Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.
Okay. Well pitch something better then. I’m genuinely interested. I’m not trying to be aggressive.
I didn’t set a goal to pitch something better, I just pointed the fact that we use unoptimized hardware and hopefully somebody is working on something better.
What do you imagine being better though? Like just in general? Some sort of gamepad that has directionals that you use in your left hand while you use the mouse with your right? Something totally different? Like what else is there?
In the very least, something more rounded and ergonomic than a row of buttons, something that lays out the buttons in such a way that they are more easily reachable without moving or contorting your hand. Fewer buttons for the pinky, more buttons for the thumb, which is now pretty much only used to hit spacebar. Maybe a big analog stick that sits under your palm, so you can tilt your entire hand to move (IDK how how useful that would be, but you wanted me to imagine something), leaving your fingers free to perform other actions.
Power Glove and Mouse obviously
Per their original comment, they aren’t saying mouse is bad. Their problem is with the keyboard.
Why are you bringing up the mouse again?
I also disagree with the keyboard comment. I see no issue with it and I don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse.
A lack of analog controls is definitely an issue. Having digital buttons on keys that are either 100% on or off loses a ton of fine control.
Playing GTA and need to make a slight left while driving? On a gamepad you just slightly tilt the stick left to make a smooth turn. On keyboard you have to do a bunch of short little taps on A (and D when you inevitably oversteer) to stop yourself from jerking the wheel left.
I remember really wanting a Logitech G13 when they came out but I could never justify spending the money on one.
For movement I would take something like a HOTAS over keyboard. For example in games with multiple movement speeds finding the right speed is rather cumbersome on keyboard because the key press is an on/off and not a scale.
Similarly on keyboard movement is restricted to 8 directions. If you need to move in some other direction most people actually use a mouse to compensate for the lack of movement options because it’s too cumbersome with a keyboard.
There are benefits to using keyboards but there are places where you can use something better. Analogue input simply gives better movement options.
Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.
You misread my comment. I’m saying Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game. I updated the comment for clarity. I see how it wasn’t clear, my bad.
Oh nvm yes I misread
Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?
Although his opinion is unpopular and you may have not of heard of it, that fact has precisely zero to do with its truthfulness and validity
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses” - Henry Ford
Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.
Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.
I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.
But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.
Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.
My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.
I think it stuck around because the primary purpose of a computer is still information handling, and thus almost all of them require a keyboard. And since keyboard is always included and is “good enough” people just kept using what was available. History is littered with cases where something stuck merely because it was good enough and easily available. The QWERTY layout itself is a good example. There are layouts that are much better, yet 99% of the keyboards still use it. Because alt layout keyboards are scarce and using them requires relearning. All while QWERTY is good enough.
Fighting games with a keyboard? Scary stuff.
It works surprisingly well, most 2D fighting games are just doing 8 directional movement anyway, so it can make a lot of inputs easier actually
speak for yourself. my Keyboard(s) tolerated me when i got hyperfocused during a gaming session not the other way around.
I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the 360° analog inputs of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping X% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.
That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.
I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)
Yeah, I’m not strictly comparing KBM vs. gamepad. As you mentioned, keyboards are just not ergonomic, and that’s what I was basically saying. So you understood my point precisely, I, too, want to see more options.
You could configure a thumbstick to operate how you want whereas with a board you can never have fully porpotional control.
On top of that, most controllers have directional pads.
Skill issue
I aspire to git gud one day.
Depends on the type of game.
As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method even for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.
As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.
I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me
My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.
I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.
Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door.
On the azeron your thumb has a joystick which is w a s d then that leaves all your other fingers with multiple keys each so you don’t really have to move your hand around that much. Still need a keyboard around for typing though in chat or a game where you name stuff
Yes! That’s the kind of stuff I hope goes mainstream and supported more. Something purpose-built not for typing, but for gaming.
And I’m sure it would be quite comfortable to have a TKL (or some other compact KB) between that and a mouse and switch between inputs when necessary.
So true. I distinctly remember instances while playing GTAV with controller in the left hand and mouse in the right. lol
Would love to find a dedicated peripheral that i liked to be used similarly.
There are some exceptions but I generally agree. The keyboard isn’t anywhere as precise as an analogue stick. Ideally I would use something like HOTAS for movement and mouse for aiming.
Game pads that use keyboard keys with custom switches and unique form factors are where I think we’re heading. Like the razer tartarus v2, which I have. It is great for gaming, better than a standard keyboard that uses identical switches, but still not ideal. It is similar enough to the layout of a keyboard that finger positioning can be the same and the learning curve is smooth.
It’s closer to your “ideal” but not there yet. And I completely agree that we need to go in that direction.
True, depending on the game of course.
I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.
Not sure on that one.
I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.
I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.
As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.
When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.
It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)
The irony is, the top world record runs on Trackmania (a not-a-hot-wheels track time trial driving game) tracks are done by keyboard drivers. Driving a high performance car on a crazy, loop-de-loopy jumps and bumps and speed boosters tracks is quickest with … WASD controls.
It’s not really that ironic. Something more ergonomic with the same tactile short travel buttons would’ve worked even better, you can just also do it with a keyboard, albeit not as comfortably.