Israel desperately trying to start WW3.
Netanyahu is. The Israeli public is highly racist, but much less enthusiastic about total war than Bibi. Unfortunately, they don’t get a say. This isn’t a democracy.
I guess we’ll never know, huh?
If tomorrow Netanyahu get removed from office, there are probably 10 or 12 other genocidal war-mongers who could take his place.
I agree that the Israeli public is far more split on this issue, but the ultra nationalists have a pretty strong hold on power.
I honestly disagree.
He’s like Trump. There are certainly no shortage of knock-offs who are eager to try and replace him if he falls, but what we saw during the Republican primary is that none so far can quite achieve what he does. They’re all lesser copies.
Netanyahu is an extraordinary politician. Not a lot of his peers have what it takes to be as effective, dangerous, and destructive as he is.
I think there’s an argument to be made that Trump and Netanyahu are uniquely situated over other fascists, but I think their dominance is more a function of taking up all the oxygen rather than them being uniquely evil/competent/popular (at least when it comes to trump)
I agree that Netanyahu has proven to be extremely effective as a politician, and is leaps-and-bounds more educated/intelligent than Trump (pretty sure he has 3 or 4 degrees, from MIT and Harvard and was rumored to be a prolific student).
I think if/when he ever gets voted out/thrown in jail/assassinated, he will leave Israel as a moldy peach to whoever takes his place. They’ve effectively burned their good-will, even between 5-Eyes states, and managed to elevate/coalesce the surrounding regional powers and their reputations (Iran and Lebanon are currently getting a ton of credit for not taking the bait and escalating with Israel, and that’s done quite a lot to rehabilitate their reputations in the ME and with Global superpowers like China and Russia). Even if there was a successor as prolific as Netanyahu, they would be left without the standing or connections that he had, and western appetite for more escalation from them will have effectively run out.
All that said; the problem of Israeli imperialism won’t go away with him, even if it will be a lot less effective in his absence. We need to start thinking of Israel as the Ethnostate that it is, and reevaluate their role in our foreign policy. I think if there’s anything their war in Gaza has proven is that they are far more ideologically fascistic than anyone in the west really was willing to recognize. That they didn’t end their war and return to their apartheid domination, and instead chose to continue escalating into genocide and now expanding their border with Lebanon, shows that their imperialism is of a different type and scale than the US’s has ever really been. They are far less content with soft power diplomacy than we are.
I really wish this generation was less enamored by the ‘great-men’ historical interpretation - it blinds us to the broader influences and motivations involved with international conflicts.
The people are damningly complicit with their leaders and killing others.
It is telling the world a very dangerous message.
I wanna push back on that.
Israel has a population of 5.2 million people, and 2 million of them are Arab Muslims.
The representation of Israel that we see in their media and culture is a reflection of Apartheid. It erases the presence and will of literally millions of people who are the target of the brutality that we’re talking about.
Ok, Dumbass, what do you propose people actually do to help, huh? Protest? That hasn’t been working. Vote for someone who literally has .001% chance of winning? Write some more snarky comments? What amazing idea do you have to actually get this stopped
Tons of Israelis are critical of Netanyahu and don’t want this anymore than most Americans wanted trump.
With the back of the west who would hands down win it thanks to the trillions of public money they spend on war. Watch out for the propaganda, iran or russia are not worst than us they are as much as bad.
Yeah how the fuck is this moving from Gaza, already a fucked up goings on in the world, to more and more of Lebanon? Why are governments of other countries still supporting this? What the actual fuck?
Why are governments of other countries still supporting this?
Why not? What are you going to do about it?
Israel has no sober friends.
I always wonder when people post this: how exactly would this go down?
Say when Iran sends troops/ships/whatever to support Hezbollah and get into a fight with the US, which other parties with significant military power would side with them? Russia is tied up and probably incapable, North Korea would be unlikely to want to commit suicide by using their nukes over this, …
Perhaps Erdogan would be the most realistic one but I don’t think their military would be very eager to follow those orders
When Iran joins the war in full capacity, the US needs to give them full attention. That leaves Taiwan open for grabs. Which they also need full attention for. Then there’s still Ukraine and Russia making plays. I imagine if Russia ever wins in Ukraine, and there are wars happening in the Middle East, Taiwan, elsewhere, then they might make a play on the Baltics for instance. So US now has 3 fronts to deal with against multiple nuclear powers. And that is of course as long as the US stays the course and doesn’t end up isolating from the rest of the world.
World wars happened because of a series of alliances pulling multiple countries into a large, singular war. Israel provoking multiple of their neighbors by attacking them and commiting genocide can absolutely draw the world into a war.
Even if your crazy scenario would play out (Europe giving up the Baltics? The US fighting a conventional war against China?), how would you put that on Israel for responding to Hezbollah’s attacks? Iran tying up the US who you seem to see as ‘World Police’ and not those other countries just itching to attack their neighbours?
If you think 2024 exists in a vacuum and that Israel has no part in the “tensions” in the region, then there isn’t much to talk about.
Sure. On the other hand: if your bottom line position is that Israel should dissapear and ‘everything goes’ until that happens, a) there are a lot of other countries where that case can be made and b) I don’t think everyone killing everyone would be the thing that prevents WW3
Turkey is a NATO member, they might talk a good game, but they aren’t going to act against US interests. The blowback would be catastrophic for Erdogan and Turkey.
how exactly would this go down?
Israeli expansion draws a bigger fish into the conflict. Perhaps they start attacking Syria or Iran more directly. Perhaps they start bombing into Saudi Arabia or Jordan. Perhaps we see another collapse of the Egyptian military dictatorship due to unrest, and the replacement government isn’t nearly as Israel-friendly as the current regime.
Then the US has to intercede. But as the US intercedes in the Middle East, it draws in more countries - fighting breaks out in Iraq to expel what remains of the US military presence, fighting breaks out between Greece and Turkey again as US naval assets are withdrawn from the region, Russia capitalizes on US arms assets slowing down in Ukraine and makes a big push into Kiev. The US has military bases all over the world, so you don’t have to travel far in order to pull off a USS Cole style bombing.
You can see this spiral into a global conflict easily enough. We’re already seeing low-key upheavels all through the central African states, the disputed territory of Kashmir, and the Chinese/Japanese contested ocean territories. When the Primary Imperial Power is engaged in too many fronts at once, that creates a lot of room for the various minor powers to reassert themselves.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted, the risk of regional escalation is very well understood even in the US state department.
Saudi Arabia is an enemy of Iran in the region, and Jordan even helped Israel intercept Iranian missiles. Why would Israel ever attack its allies in that conflict?
And Israel has been expanding into the West Bank since like '67. What changed that that would suddenly ‘draw in bigger fish’ now?
Saudi Arabia is an enemy of Iran in the region
China’s been brokering peace negotiations with them for some time as part of its Belt & Road Initiative.
Jordan even helped Israel intercept Iranian missiles
And Israel repaid the aid by bombing a Jordanian hospital in Gaza. Its a very one-sided relationship, heavily predicated on Jordanian security services being in bed with the IDF.
And Israel has been expanding into the West Bank since like '67.
Not since the '48 Nakba has Israel been this aggressive with its expansion. This is in no small part thanks to the flood of Ukrainian and Russian refugees serving as fodder for settlements.
Jordan even helped Israel intercept Iranian missiles
And Israel repaid the aid by bombing a Jordanian hospital in Gaza.
So what you’re claiming is they first tricked Jordan in helping them intercept those Iranian missiles, and then went back in time a couple of months to spray some bullets towards that hospital without Future-Jordan being aware? That just sounds too incredible for me. Even if they have that technology there are a million better uses for it
And Israel has been expanding into the West Bank since like '67.
Not since the '48 Nakba has Israel been this aggressive with its expansion. This is in no small part thanks to the flood of Ukrainian and Russian refugees serving as fodder for settlements.
Yeah you might want to look at the expansion after the '67 war first before you proclaim a couple of settlements are the most dramatic thing since '48, going to trigger WW3
So what you’re claiming is they first tricked Jordan in helping them intercept those Iranian missiles, and then went back in time a couple of months to spray some bullets towards that hospital without Future-Jordan being aware?
No
Israel has already fought multiple wars with its neighbors, and the US never interceded (if by that you mean “sent US troops”). In fact, the whole purpose of arming Israel is partly so their soldiers do the fighting instead of Americans. I think the US expects Israel to handle Iran as it did Egypt, Jordan, Syria etc.
The US doesn’t really care about Central Africa or Kashmir, it has no strategic interests in those regions. So any wars fought there (and again, there have already been a few) will be mostly ignored by the US.
The US cares a lot about China, so this is the only place it might send its own US forces. But those will mostly be US Navy, since it doesn’t need to occupy new territory. And the Navy isn’t really needed elsewhere.
Israel has already fought multiple wars with its neighbors, and the US never interceded
The US has been sending military aid, military advisors, and military assets into the region around Israel for over 80 years. The US has stationed two different carrier groups to support the Israeli invasion of Gaza.
Right, which is why I specified “send US troops”.
Who do you think is manning those carrier groups?
Both have already returned home.
They’re on rotation. The USS Lincoln is set to replace the Roosevelt, which was replacing the Eisenhower.
Probably China over estimating itself in Taiwan and hoping the US is too bogged down in Israel/Ukraine.
Lebanese civilians and Lebanese homes are Hezbollah. It worked in Gaza, why wouldn’t it work in Lebanon.
If you’re not careful, you will be Hezbollah too.
Journalists and UN workers? That’s right, Hezbollah
You know what would to be really, REALLY uncomfortable?
If Harris loses, there’s a strong chance that it might be over this terrible war. What a stupid, stupid reason to have to live through another Trump presidency.
What a stupid, stupid reason to have to live through another Trump presidency and continue the war unchanged.
FTFY
What a stupid, stupid reason to have to live through another Trump presidency and continue the war, with even more support than ever.
FTFY
Evangelicals like the genocide, brings their death cult closer to its end.
Except it really doesn’t since that world already ended in the mid 1800s, much like the Green Sahara period ending, and The Bronze Age Collapse ended the world 6000 years ago causing them to write that apocalyptic fictive.
How many horse drawn carriages do you see on a daily basis? How many oxen plow your fields? That was the norm until the mid to late 1800s. That world already ended. They just refuse to accept their own books.
No. It will be so much worse.
Israel wants Trump. They know that Trump will supercharge their campaign and they are counting on Jill Stein to siphon off votes from Harris. That’s why they’ve upped their campaign like this. They are goading Stein to get more press and convince more liberal voters. Because they know that, due to the significant democrat base that unreservedly supports Israel no matter what they do, Harris will never pull her support while campaigning but they are sure that if she wins Biden and she will start playing hardball to get them to stop and they don’t want to stop, they want to wipe out all Palestinians. This has been a stated goal of theirs. And Trump and the Republicans will help them do it more than Harris will.
The thing I find hilarious is Jill Stein had no coverage while RFK was still in contention. Then as soon as the handlers realized he wasn’t going to work they pivoted to the next alternative.
I’m sorry, but this narrative so completely exonerates Biden and Harris for their direct responsibility for risking the election over this.
The notion that Harris is in a bind is an absolute fiction. The overwhelming majority of Americans want an arms embargo with Israel. It has broad bipartisan support, including with an overwhelming majority of Democrats. And in top of that, she chose to not even let a popular Palestinian American lawmaker from Georgia give a vetted speech endorsing her at the DNC.
She is risking this election. That is a personal choice. I hope she wins, but if she loses because she didn’t have votes she made clear she doesn’t want, that is not on Jill Stein, that’s a Harris decision.
Red and blue serve the same interests
unchanged
Getting worse means changes are required… Trump wouldn’t make anything better but there is no reason to suggest Harris wants to make things better.
Hey at least he could never win again, silver lining lol. Then all we have to do is kill him when he tries to go dictator which honestly shouldn’t be that hard, the nearest secret service agent may even do it…extrajudiciously.
(I have a pet theory that one of the functions of the secret service is to quickly turn from bodyguards to assassins if a dictatorial president does attempt a real take over. I mean, why not? if it isn’t it should be.)
A world where Trump gets elected and then assassinated is a world where JD Vance is president of an America that elected Trump and then saw him assassinated. That’s how you get Gilead by 2025. That is NOT something to fantasize about. That’s a hell scenario. And it’s why people who think that there’s any solutions to our problem that come out of a gun are – and I mean this with all due respect – very, very dumb.
And to put a fine point on this: it’s not that this wouldn’t be a bad idea if not for JD Vance. It’s illustrative of how political violence in real life almost universally makes whatever problem might’ve motivated the violence suddenly far worse rather than better.
I think if a VP helps aid and abbett a president’s hostile takeover they go to prison, but I could be wrong I suppose.
In any case: well, if he gets elected and then does go dictator, because that’s the hypothetical in which I said he should be shot, what would you rather do? “Just not elect him” isn’t an option because again, in the hypothetical he’s already dictator. If you have a better idea I’m all ears, but tbh it seems like the best way to deal with dictators to me, and tbf at least he’s getting off easier then mussolini or ghadaffi(sp?), most dictators are dragged through the street and sodomized with brooms and shit.
Furthermore: Ok fine, so you shoot a dictator and that legally means his 2nd in command remains in power instead of prison (for some unlikely reason). Ok so shoot both. What’s the goddamn problem here? If they literally go dictator, why the hell not? It’s literally already punishable by death to take over the whole country by force I think.
The first thing you need to know is that if Trump gets elected, there is no discernible point between whether he “goes dictator” or not. People just use power and whether they’re a dictator is a subjective exercise for historians.
Second: if Trump gets elected, everyone should actually be doing the same things they do if Harris gets elected, which are also the same things we should all have been doing under Biden, Trump, Obama, etc: which is building a base of local power to stand up for the most threatened among us and push back against authoritarian state power.
In practice, this means getting to know your neighbors. Knowing who serves as your mayor and city council and county council, and police chief, and local prosecutor. Then you need to organize with your local community to build political power to support democracy and oppose authoritarian power. And if you and the folks in the next town do this, you form a bloc of political will to do the same thing at the state level, and eventually the federal level.
This work still needs done if Harris wins. She is a better person than Trump, but the larger system both would command is a loaded gun. We cannot simply keep trying to keep the gun in the hands of the lesser of two evils, we need to remove the bullets. That means things like public financing of elections and ranked choice voting. It’s not as dramatic as shooting politicians you don’t like, but unfortunately, in the real world this is how dismantling fascism actually works.
Well tbf I don’t disagree with that, but good luck with it (and especially in time for the next presidency to end, which is about 4y).
Tbh it seems more likely to me that either one would say “know what? I’m king/queen now” and get domed by someone who works “for” them who says “nope” than all the country comes together and builds support networks, but ya can’t place all your eggs in one basket.
You mean like when he tried to overthrow the 2020 election by rallying his supporters to march on the capitol?
Keyword tried. Quite unsuccessfully, not even near the level where a secret service agent would be doing that if they are tasked with it (but I bet they were thinking about it being possible if they are.)
I mean really, if that is his best coup let him try again lol. Real quality coup you got there, less dead cops than Chris Dorner got by himself.
Nah fuck that. Trying to overthrow a democratically elected president is always wrong, and not taking him to task for it empowers him to try it again.
Sure, by all means take this as an actual endorsement rather than me making fun of him, lol.
The harris campaign is openly hostile to the anti-war anti-genocide vote. They are not interested in trying to get our votes. If they make the calculation that they need the anti-war vote to win they will try to appeal to us but they have decided (so far) that they don’t want us and don’t need us.
Don’t blame us for not voting for a candidate who doesn’t want our vote and is actively hostile to our position.
So you have three options, all having a bad outcome on the most important thing you care about.
One of the options maybe has better outcomes on some other things you care about.
Another option has bad outcomes in almost everything you care about, plus maybe even a worse outcome to your most important thing.
The third option is to leave it up everyone else to pick between the first two.
I know what I’d pick, what will you do?
You’re absolutely ignoring their comment. If democrat voters showed a spine and conditioned their vote to an end to the genocide, the democrat leadership may decide that it’s worth it to cater to these voters to win the elections if that’s what they want. By enabling all their actions through “vote blue no matter who” you’re just degrading the democracy further, and postponing the choice 4 more years during which nothing will happen.
“If we hold the country hostage, they’ll definitely do what I want before the opposition makes everything irreversibly worse.”
“let’s blame voters for wanting to vote against genocide instead of blaming the party which is committing genocide and openly speaking of having the most LETHAL army in the world”
The only two real options are both pro genocide, pro military industrial complex which tells me this country is fucked there’s nothing I can do to help that. All I can do is follow my conscience and my conscience won’t let me rest if I vote for genocide
I agree with all of that. Except for the part about possibly appealing to the anti-war voter if it would help them win. There are some – Biden for instance – who clearly would rather lose than do that. I don’t know Harris well enough to judge.
I think it’s sad that people complain when someone says that they won’t vote for the lesser of two evils. It’s sad because it shows a profound misunderstanding about how democracy is supposed to work, and what they’re entitled to demand from their fellow citizens.
The largest voting block in every election is the depressed voter. And the reason is that our system is constructed to favor a broken two-party system even at the expense of civil participation that can solve our problems. Millions of people don’t vote because they see no benefit in doing so. The problem to be solved is that the political system has failed these people, not that they aren’t showing sufficient enthusiasm to do paperwork to satisfy the demands of people who feel invested in the outcome of elections.
The media falsely claims that each candidate has 47% support when really they each have about 30% support, and a larger number of people have not felt any interest in supporting either candidate. That’s a massive failing in reporting and political process.
Biden:
Removed by mod
Putin is a cunt and Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine must be stopped.
If I was on Russia’s payroll that should be enough to get me arrested or at least fired.
So either I’m risking my safety OOOOORRRR not everyone opposed to Biden’s support for Israel is a Russian bot. Golly gosh I wonder which one it is
If I was on Russia’s payroll that should be enough to get me arrested or at least fired.
You don’t need to be on Russia’s payroll to spew pro-Putin talking points. Plenty of American oligarchs will foot the bill.
So either I’m risking my safety
Its so crazy to be listening to a podcast interview with Daniel Santiago while reading this.
You don’t need to be on Russia’s payroll to spew pro-Putin talking points
You know, if criticizing killing is a “pro-Putin talking point,” then pro Putin talking points clearly aren’t always bad? Should I be in favour of murder to really show how much I hate Putin? Literally what the fuck are you talking about
I agree with Putin that the sky is blue too. I’m expecting my rubles in the mail any day now.
You know, if criticizing killing is a “pro-Putin talking point,” then pro Putin talking points clearly aren’t always bad?
If they are Pro-Putin, they must be bad. Or possibly an evil trick, trying to fool me into thinking Russians aren’t a D&D monster race that is ontological evil.
Should I be in favour of murder to really show how much I hate Putin?
I mean, the real irony of all this is in how politically tight Putin and Netanyahu have been over the last twenty years. What’s more, the over 80k Russian Jews migrating to Israel since the start of Russia-Ukraine hostilities have been at the forefront of the Israeli settler movement over the same period of time.
So… you could kinda sorta see a line between these two countries and their respective wars on their neighbors.
But that kind of analysis sends pro-Israel / anti-Russia journalists into a confused and angry spiral. So we go out of our way to avoid conflating these conflicts at every opportunity.
I agree with Putin that the sky is blue too. I’m expecting my rubles in the mail any day now.
Сила есть, ума не надо
Liberal DNC shills when Americans don’t blindly support a centrist corporate lobby party in disguise:
I don’t think the sarcasm registered in this crowd
You are schizophrenic
machineLearner
lolz
I hope you know that Lemmy isn’t shift work, right?
Is that a real comment or sarcasm?
Sarcasm.
But we’re posting under a link to The Intercept. I’m surprised we don’t have more folks saying it sincerely, given how critical the paper has been of the Biden administration.
Ah I see. Usually I’m not in favour of the sarcasm tag (ruins the joke) but it would have really helped here, lol.
Removed, civility.
News are reporting 50 dead children
So a slow day for Israel
I really hope US citizens start protesting in grand scale because of this. I hope they have it in them.
We do not
I’d like to see mass protests in Israel
Lol. Can’t even protest to save our own damn selves.
WWW3 when?
Late October, Netanyahu will do whatever he can to help Trump win.
Let’s not forget that they bailed on ceasefire talks a few weeks ago because former president, and private citizen, Donald Trump violated the Logan Act by calling Netanyahu and telling him not to accept the ceasefire.
World Wide War 3
As soon as they produces enough weapons and brainwash enough people for it
We didn’t call WW1 a world war until america joined 3 years into the European war. The second world war wasn’t called that until after the war had formally ended. Who knows.
Well, we wouldn’t want them to run out I guess. /s
Cut your nose to spite your face then. You’ll keep paying for genocide even if you won’t “vote for it.”
The things you can do are support groups and politicians that will push the country in the direction you want it to move. Really think about what action (or inaction) does for the things that matter to you. You have an opportunity to do something to help reduce overall suffering and make the country and world a slightly better place.
Keep fat loser hitler out of office, squelch the attempted insurrection from his loser brigade, and bust the absolute balls out of the saner party to get ranked choice voting implemented so we can have more substantial changes.
This is the way.
The things you can do are support groups and politicians that will push the country in the direction you want it to move
So voting the greens is good because they’re moving the country in the direction of non-genocide? I’m European myself, but I don’t see how anyone could vote for the party whose candidate, during an ongoing genocide, says that “defends the right of Israel to defend itself” and claims that the US should have “the most lethal” fighting force in the world. Not most efficient, not most effective, not best funded: most LETHAL.
I think it’s simple election maths within their system. Since they have only the two big ones and they don’t make coalitions, you’ll just screw yourself over since by voting for the best option instead of lesser evil of the two, you’ll get the more evil as result.
