But as it stands, what do the people of Ukraine gain from this war? Will Putin bring any liberation to them? Will he improve their lives in any meaningful way?
I mean, I’d argue that eastern Ukraine and the ethnic minorities of Ukraine gain a hell of a lot from the war, including liberation and an improvement in their livelihoods (mainly, by being allowed to live without persecution, as second-class citizens, and facing constant atrocities from the Banderite govt).
The Russian proletariat- as well as that of the global south, and even arguably (IMO accurately) those of the imperial cores- also stand to lose much, if NATO is allowed to neuter Russia and point a metaphorical gun point-blank to its head- in this sense, the conflict is not only existential for all Russians (as IMO the goal of all this, ultimately, was always to further loot, destroy, carve up, and enslave Russia and destroy domestic bourgeois resistance under Putin that had risen up post-collapse to avoid being completely colonized by the west), but it also comes very near being existential to all of humanity as well.
My problem is… as I’ve said, Putin sucks basically. He’s a reactionary himself. A different flavor, I suppose, but a reactionary is a reactionary in the end and a capitalist country is a capitalist country.
And honestly, while I get where you’re coming from- I can’t fully agree with this sentiment. You read Putin right, sure- but I would argue that neither all reactionaries, nor all capitalists, are equal.
Putin and the Russian state may be capitalist, but they are not imperialist (the highest form of capitalism, and the global system and imposition of it as such). And- largely because they are not imperialist, they do not act as the enforcers of imperialism, nor the proliferators of reactionary regression across the world; they aren’t the ones backing literal Nazis across Europe and fascists across the globe, they aren’t the ones supporting pretty much every anti-indigenous movement worldwide either, nor the ones spreading and supporting jihadi terrorism, tribalism, cartels, and missionaries.
They aren’t the ones trying to destroy AES and anti-imperialist (even if not socialist) resistance across the globe. And while they did certainly attempt to join the league of imperialists (in fairness, at least partially because that was probably the only “peaceful” option they saw left as NATO kept creeping nearer), ultimately they- like, increasingly, the rest of the world- found themselves forced into a common cause with AES and the anti-imperialist struggle all the same.
Putin and the current state of Russia should not be blindly trusted, sure. I’d argue no one should- but a reactionary capitalist with their track record deserves the extra scrutiny. But I don’t think they’re remotely akin to the forces of international reactionary-ism and capitalism; they are not imperialists, and they are not aspiring towards imperialism, nor feasibly able to pursue it.
You’ve probably made the most clear and concise argument against my stance (which I don’t claim is unique, just for the record).
I agree that Russia isn’t an imperialist nation. I was careful to not characterize them as such, and you’re correct to bring up the fact that the US is. This is actually why I place most of the blame on the US for the current state of things, of course the EU countries are not innocent, although they basically just march to the tune the US sets.
I’m open to being wrong about all of this, but I think the ultimate judgement won’t come for a long time. Maybe not in my lifetime even. I know one thing I’m absolutely not wrong about though, which everyone here agrees on I hope, the US/NATO need to totally get the fuck out of Russia and its neighboring countries. If this war does result in the US long term abandoning Ukraine and efforts there to stoke Nazism and general right wing nationalism/anti-Russian/Soviet sentiments, then I suppose I’ll have to accept that the end result is good even if I disagree with motivations and methods.
Personally I think there already is overwhelming amount of indisputable evidence to back up a judgement that not only is Russia wholly justified in this conflict, but acting with such an extreme level of patience and diligence to the rules of war that they should even be commended (not too much though- Putin’s, and the Russian state’s liberal, comprador roots and their resulting hopes for peace and acceptance into the imperialist bloc are why it took so long for Russia to wake up to and act decisively against this threat)- even as the west and Ukraine continue terrorizing civilians in eastern Ukraine and former Ukraine, and engaging in acts of terrorism against Russian civilians within the internationally recognized territories of Russia as well.
As in- seriously, aside from that Putin waited too long (as he himself has publicly admitted- he was naive)- amazingly I can’t think of a single thing to condemn otherwise, in regards to their handling of this war. The stark difference between Ukraine and any of the US/NATO’s wars and interventions over even just the past decade is clear for anyone to see, as is the clear threat- not just to Putin, or to the rest of the domestic bourgeois of Russia, but to the entire Russian nation and (multiethnic) people, which necessitated such a intervention.
I mean, I’d argue that eastern Ukraine and the ethnic minorities of Ukraine gain a hell of a lot from the war, including liberation and an improvement in their livelihoods (mainly, by being allowed to live without persecution, as second-class citizens, and facing constant atrocities from the Banderite govt).
The Russian proletariat- as well as that of the global south, and even arguably (IMO accurately) those of the imperial cores- also stand to lose much, if NATO is allowed to neuter Russia and point a metaphorical gun point-blank to its head- in this sense, the conflict is not only existential for all Russians (as IMO the goal of all this, ultimately, was always to further loot, destroy, carve up, and enslave Russia and destroy domestic bourgeois resistance under Putin that had risen up post-collapse to avoid being completely colonized by the west), but it also comes very near being existential to all of humanity as well.
And honestly, while I get where you’re coming from- I can’t fully agree with this sentiment. You read Putin right, sure- but I would argue that neither all reactionaries, nor all capitalists, are equal.
Putin and the Russian state may be capitalist, but they are not imperialist (the highest form of capitalism, and the global system and imposition of it as such). And- largely because they are not imperialist, they do not act as the enforcers of imperialism, nor the proliferators of reactionary regression across the world; they aren’t the ones backing literal Nazis across Europe and fascists across the globe, they aren’t the ones supporting pretty much every anti-indigenous movement worldwide either, nor the ones spreading and supporting jihadi terrorism, tribalism, cartels, and missionaries.
They aren’t the ones trying to destroy AES and anti-imperialist (even if not socialist) resistance across the globe. And while they did certainly attempt to join the league of imperialists (in fairness, at least partially because that was probably the only “peaceful” option they saw left as NATO kept creeping nearer), ultimately they- like, increasingly, the rest of the world- found themselves forced into a common cause with AES and the anti-imperialist struggle all the same.
Putin and the current state of Russia should not be blindly trusted, sure. I’d argue no one should- but a reactionary capitalist with their track record deserves the extra scrutiny. But I don’t think they’re remotely akin to the forces of international reactionary-ism and capitalism; they are not imperialists, and they are not aspiring towards imperialism, nor feasibly able to pursue it.
You’ve probably made the most clear and concise argument against my stance (which I don’t claim is unique, just for the record).
I agree that Russia isn’t an imperialist nation. I was careful to not characterize them as such, and you’re correct to bring up the fact that the US is. This is actually why I place most of the blame on the US for the current state of things, of course the EU countries are not innocent, although they basically just march to the tune the US sets.
I’m open to being wrong about all of this, but I think the ultimate judgement won’t come for a long time. Maybe not in my lifetime even. I know one thing I’m absolutely not wrong about though, which everyone here agrees on I hope, the US/NATO need to totally get the fuck out of Russia and its neighboring countries. If this war does result in the US long term abandoning Ukraine and efforts there to stoke Nazism and general right wing nationalism/anti-Russian/Soviet sentiments, then I suppose I’ll have to accept that the end result is good even if I disagree with motivations and methods.
Personally I think there already is overwhelming amount of indisputable evidence to back up a judgement that not only is Russia wholly justified in this conflict, but acting with such an extreme level of patience and diligence to the rules of war that they should even be commended (not too much though- Putin’s, and the Russian state’s liberal, comprador roots and their resulting hopes for peace and acceptance into the imperialist bloc are why it took so long for Russia to wake up to and act decisively against this threat)- even as the west and Ukraine continue terrorizing civilians in eastern Ukraine and former Ukraine, and engaging in acts of terrorism against Russian civilians within the internationally recognized territories of Russia as well.
As in- seriously, aside from that Putin waited too long (as he himself has publicly admitted- he was naive)- amazingly I can’t think of a single thing to condemn otherwise, in regards to their handling of this war. The stark difference between Ukraine and any of the US/NATO’s wars and interventions over even just the past decade is clear for anyone to see, as is the clear threat- not just to Putin, or to the rest of the domestic bourgeois of Russia, but to the entire Russian nation and (multiethnic) people, which necessitated such a intervention.