I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat.
Standard disclaimer, this isn’t an attempt to excuse Biden’s support for Israel which is and has been unconscionable. But that being said:
I think the possibility of Israel being stomped flat is part of the calculus that underlies American support for them. They’re surrounded by powerful enemies like Iran, and a whole unanimous coalition of nations full of military and political leaders who go to sleep at night dreaming of the lifelong stamp of heroism that would stem from being part of the holy alliance that finally wiped them out.
Whatever crimes against humanity their “defense” forces commit and are committing, the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.
And it could happen. The world is not a nice place. Part of running the State Department is dealing in horrifying outcomes like that, and it happens every year in a few places across the globe, to people we haven’t taken pains to make friends and allies of (and sometimes even to people like the Kurds that we have).
We used to love like brothers and sisters various leaders all over the world who did genocidal things like Netanyahu, and I’m sure we still do, but it’s not an everyday thing now like it was in the 80s and 90s. But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel. There’s a popular theory on Lemmy that it’s simply because Biden is evil and loves genocide, and certainly AIPAC is a part and simple racism and lack of care for dying civilians in the Mideast is a part, but to me I think one of the powerful drivers is the fear of what might happen if the rest of the Middle East ever got the idea that they could try to fuck up Israel and the US might not be there to make sure it didn’t happen.
Let the accusations commence. Like I say, I’m trying to explain, not to excuse, and besides nothing in any of that above would have stopped them having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”
having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”
Oh, I wouldn’t do that. Just drop him in the middle of Rafah and let him walk home.
“What’s the matter, tough guy? Don’t they have a right to fight their enemies? Don’t they have a right to defend themselves, with or without international support?”
The scenario you describe is so far from reality that it’s hard to take as something other than a creative writing exercise. Israel is not existentially threatened at all. The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region and Israel was just in the process of normalizing relations with some of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. All the military support from the USA isn’t saving anyone, it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct.
The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region
Individually, probably so. Collectively?
There’s a fuck of a lot of countries there. Some of them (Saudi Arabia) have bigger militaries than Israel even individually, and some of them (Iran) have lots of land and people and some certain amount of money, and lots of alliances with lots of rowdy guys with guns and rockets.
Israel and MBS and the West being all buddy buddy with each other and fuck what 99.9% of the people in that part of the world think about it, is one of those things that can change.
it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy
I won’t at all disagree with that. All the homies love big weapons packages. Whatever else is going on in the world, throwing over a hundred billion dollars to weapons suppliers is always a popular decision in DC.
and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct
I don’t at all believe that killing children is affirmatively a priority in Washington. I think that depending on the nationality of the children, it can be an acceptable item on the balance sheet to be factored in against other priorities. 😢
But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel.
Lemmy is stupid, so you shouldn’t pay attention to popular lemmy theories. But you’ve got it wrong too.
Christians need Israel to exist in order for their prophecy to be fulfilled. That’s the reason for the vast majority of the support Israel gets in the US. They don’t care about Israel as a state, or Jews, or anything else. It’s just a practical matter. One of the preconditions for the End Times is Israel existing.
That variety of “Christian” certainly exists in America but I don’t think they are as powerful as they used to be and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department (I mean… not currently, at least.)
You probably only think that because you’ve gone out of your way to exclude them from your life. They still very much exist. They’re a majority of people who care about the middle east in any way.
and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department
Anything that popular has sway with the government.
You don’t live here and aren’t paying attention then…
Those are exactly the people in control of the Republican party right now and the ones Trump is promising the world to in his bid to get elected. (And become a dictator)
It’s absolutely true. I’m just talking about how the US may be viewing the realpolitik of the situation and their interest in it, not saying anything about if it’s just or unjust. If you want my judgement about it, Israel did it to themselves this situation, yes, 100%.
Idk about that, between Yemen and Prince Bonesaws. They’ve killed a lot more people, is it really that much better if they weren’t doing it as a genocide?
the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.
But if footage of what’s actually happening to Palestinians right now is shown then nothing happens? Their lives aren’t worth anything in the eyes of Americans?
It is changing slowly but that doesn’t do anything for someone whose child is dying quickly, right now
Part of it is just the news. They would present it VERY differently and in a much more compelling fashion than they present what’s happening in Palestine today. But that’s only part. The average American also cares far more about white people and countries that are “our friends” than they do about people who are neither of those things.
Standard disclaimer, this isn’t an attempt to excuse Biden’s support for Israel which is and has been unconscionable. But that being said:
I think the possibility of Israel being stomped flat is part of the calculus that underlies American support for them. They’re surrounded by powerful enemies like Iran, and a whole unanimous coalition of nations full of military and political leaders who go to sleep at night dreaming of the lifelong stamp of heroism that would stem from being part of the holy alliance that finally wiped them out.
Whatever crimes against humanity their “defense” forces commit and are committing, the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.
And it could happen. The world is not a nice place. Part of running the State Department is dealing in horrifying outcomes like that, and it happens every year in a few places across the globe, to people we haven’t taken pains to make friends and allies of (and sometimes even to people like the Kurds that we have).
We used to love like brothers and sisters various leaders all over the world who did genocidal things like Netanyahu, and I’m sure we still do, but it’s not an everyday thing now like it was in the 80s and 90s. But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel. There’s a popular theory on Lemmy that it’s simply because Biden is evil and loves genocide, and certainly AIPAC is a part and simple racism and lack of care for dying civilians in the Mideast is a part, but to me I think one of the powerful drivers is the fear of what might happen if the rest of the Middle East ever got the idea that they could try to fuck up Israel and the US might not be there to make sure it didn’t happen.
Let the accusations commence. Like I say, I’m trying to explain, not to excuse, and besides nothing in any of that above would have stopped them having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”
Oh, I wouldn’t do that. Just drop him in the middle of Rafah and let him walk home.
“What’s the matter, tough guy? Don’t they have a right to fight their enemies? Don’t they have a right to defend themselves, with or without international support?”
The scenario you describe is so far from reality that it’s hard to take as something other than a creative writing exercise. Israel is not existentially threatened at all. The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region and Israel was just in the process of normalizing relations with some of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. All the military support from the USA isn’t saving anyone, it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct.
Individually, probably so. Collectively?
There’s a fuck of a lot of countries there. Some of them (Saudi Arabia) have bigger militaries than Israel even individually, and some of them (Iran) have lots of land and people and some certain amount of money, and lots of alliances with lots of rowdy guys with guns and rockets.
Israel and MBS and the West being all buddy buddy with each other and fuck what 99.9% of the people in that part of the world think about it, is one of those things that can change.
I won’t at all disagree with that. All the homies love big weapons packages. Whatever else is going on in the world, throwing over a hundred billion dollars to weapons suppliers is always a popular decision in DC.
I don’t at all believe that killing children is affirmatively a priority in Washington. I think that depending on the nationality of the children, it can be an acceptable item on the balance sheet to be factored in against other priorities. 😢
Lemmy is stupid, so you shouldn’t pay attention to popular lemmy theories. But you’ve got it wrong too.
Christians need Israel to exist in order for their prophecy to be fulfilled. That’s the reason for the vast majority of the support Israel gets in the US. They don’t care about Israel as a state, or Jews, or anything else. It’s just a practical matter. One of the preconditions for the End Times is Israel existing.
That variety of “Christian” certainly exists in America but I don’t think they are as powerful as they used to be and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department (I mean… not currently, at least.)
You probably only think that because you’ve gone out of your way to exclude them from your life. They still very much exist. They’re a majority of people who care about the middle east in any way.
Anything that popular has sway with the government.
You don’t live here and aren’t paying attention then…
Those are exactly the people in control of the Republican party right now and the ones Trump is promising the world to in his bid to get elected. (And become a dictator)
Hence why I said not currently
But the Republicans have that power NOW. They don’t have complete power, but that doesn’t mean they and their policies aren’t affecting the US.
Take a good look at a map, buddy.
Okay done, I looked at a map
Now what?
You should definitely color Lebanon.
You are correct. I wasn’t trying to be super accurate about it, just trying to make the point, but Lebanon is an important omission.
Fascists make the world their enemy and then claim everyone is out to get them.
It’s actually a pretty core aspect of the 40k universe btw, just throwing that out there because no one seems to bring it up.
It’s absolutely true. I’m just talking about how the US may be viewing the realpolitik of the situation and their interest in it, not saying anything about if it’s just or unjust. If you want my judgement about it, Israel did it to themselves this situation, yes, 100%.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/american-troops-middle-east-israel-palestine
There are many bases in other countries willing to work with the US. Saudi Arabia appears a more conforming “ally” than Israel.
Idk about that, between Yemen and Prince Bonesaws. They’ve killed a lot more people, is it really that much better if they weren’t doing it as a genocide?
Some of the blue countries are in very good terms with Israel.
But if footage of what’s actually happening to Palestinians right now is shown then nothing happens? Their lives aren’t worth anything in the eyes of Americans?
You broke the code yes
😢
It is changing slowly but that doesn’t do anything for someone whose child is dying quickly, right now
Part of it is just the news. They would present it VERY differently and in a much more compelling fashion than they present what’s happening in Palestine today. But that’s only part. The average American also cares far more about white people and countries that are “our friends” than they do about people who are neither of those things.