I just want a ‘dear leader’ like the fascists have, is that so wrong?
I can not figure out how people see him as charismatic. His voice grates my ears, he’s objectively ugly, wears poorly fitting clothing, and half them time when he’s speaking you can’t understand what it is that he’s trying to communicate. Like when people say he’s charismatic, it feels to me like they might as well say “have you met this pus filled boil? It’s so charming”.
I can not figure out how people see him as charismatic.
Just imagine you’re a fish and he’s a shiny thing. That’s all the neural complexity happening in the minds of people that find Trump charismatic.
Or a better exercise: turn on a Fox News interview with a democrat and listen with a wet towel over the speaker so all you hear is tones, not words. Imagine you’re a stray dog- all you hear is ‘strength’ and ‘weakness’ of human vocal tones. Anyone that isn’t an approved conservative voice will sound frustrated and exasperated while the conservative sounds confident and self-assured. Ignore the words, hear the tones- that’s what Trump’s ‘charisma’ is- biological manipulation of mammalian instincts. Biden doesn’t have that power because his target audience is humans that try to defy their animal nature. Trump can speak directly to the human animal.
He studied pro wrestling. He perfected the heel.
See the movie “Man in the Moon” about Andy Kaufman for context.
Loved that movie. Kaufman laughing when he realized the guru-cancer extraction thing was a con is the spice of life.
Dang. That is a deep cut.
I had forgotten about that. Maybe I blocked it out.
It is a great movie.
Well said.
Several other Lemmings have reported that playing Trump speeches for their MAGA relatives at 1.5x speed breaks the spell. The hypnotic effect vanishes, and all that they hear is the words, which are drivel.
Well, considering how he is it shouldn’t be surprising that the people who think he’s charismatic are universally the worst kind of people you could imagine.
Nobody who isn’t an absolute fucking shitbag thinks he has any redeeming qualities. Well, correction: he does have some redeeming qualities, such as being fairly old and unhealthy meaning he’ll probably die soonish, although not soon enough.
Well, considering how he is it shouldn’t be surprising that the people who think he’s charismatic are universally the worst kind of people you could imagine.
This will sound contrary at first but please bear with me.
My mother, and one of my brothers think Trump has ‘charisma’. They voted for him twice and I assume will do so again though I’ve stopped asking for the sake of our relationships. They are not ‘bad people’ in any personal sense. In close proximity they would very literally give a you the shirt off their back if you needed it no matter your race, nationality, or religion. Their problem is extending that charity to anyone outside their immediate vicinity. They will casually dehumanize in the abstract, but in person they are sincerely and demonstrably humanitarians.
They simply cannot extrapolate morality outside their own experience, they can only interpolate between. So when they see an actual human with a need they can recognize, they are compelled by their morality to provide. They just lack the capacity to extend that humanitarianism to people they hear about on the news.
It’s easy to dismiss them as ‘bad people’ and assume we’re just categorically ‘better’ because we can extrapolate morality and they can’t, but I can’t do that because I love my family for the good I’ve seen in them and I can’t hate them just because they can’t see as far as I can.
I don’t have any specific advice, just encouraging you to think of ‘conservatives’ as specifically limited, but still fully 3-dimensional human beings with a form of compassion we can potentially connect with rather than cartoonish villains or rubes.
That’s not to say that applies to all ‘conservatives’. Some are just plain sociopaths, instigators, or opportunists, but if you cast a wide net over people that identity as ‘conservatives’ you should be aware you’d find a lot of them would treat you with dignity and respect- they just don’t know how abstract that dignity and respect to people they haven’t actually met.
you’d find a lot of them would treat you with dignity and respect- they just don’t know how abstract that dignity and respect to people they haven’t actually met.
Considering I’m not cis, I severely doubt that. So far nearly every conservative I know (except for literally one person) has gotten much worse over the years, with one “moderate” going as far as saying to my face that the world would be a better place if gender minorities didn’t exist and that we’re all pretending anyhow.
I’m sorry if this sounds callous, but conservatives can get fucked and the majority of them are horrible people. The ideology they support is downright psychopathic, and if they had their way I wouldn’t have human rights.
Considering I’m not cis, I severely doubt it.
Well now you’re categorically judging strangers based on an identity another stranger (me) told you about them so I’m inclined to believe you’re just as limited as them.
There’s a difference: a trans person isn’t a threat to Trump supporters. Trump supporters are, quite literally, calling for the death of trans folks. Your family may not be part of that, but as a trans person if I see a MAGA hat I’m forced to assume they mean me harm. For the same reason that women often don’t feel safe around men.
Fuck, man, if they were a Jew and talking about people who were voting for Nazis, would you say the same?
Fact is that conservative ideology in the modern day is overWHELMINGLY centered around dehumanization of GSMs, amongst others; and Trump’s particular brand of snake oil doubly so. It’s not ‘categorically judging strangers’ off some random attribute; it’s judging strangers based on the company they want to run the country, which is not exactly an irrelevant category to consider.
You may be right about your family treating everyone with dignity and respect. But speaking purely as a matter of logic and likelihood, the other poster is absolutely right to doubt that.
But think about the Nazis’ individual humanity! My parents are Nazis and they’re good people!
Well you can get fucked too for all I care. I’m under no compulsion to respect people (meaning conservatives) who support an ideology that would absolutely have me murdered if they had their way.
I didn’t even mention respecting them, just trying to help you recognize their individual humanity but I know when you’re hurting it’s easy to dehumanize everyone you associate with your pain. You’re more like them than you want to admit.
My dad’s the same way, you put it into words perfectly. It sucks because like that would be so wonderful to have backing up good causes but they just can’t for some reason.
My dad genuinely believes that the Conservative party leader is a good dude that “I know and I can talk to” simply because he lives in that guy’s riding the dude did some door-to-door stuff a long time ago. Because he’s seen him in person it’s far too difficult to question the guy’s shitty policies and behaviour.
I genuinely don’t even know if it’s kindness or not. It’s such a strange thing to me, to be nearly unable to be mean to someone you’ve seen in person and yet so profoundly dismissive to someone else just because you can’t concieve of their life as being “real” without having them right in front of yo- oh, maybe that’s it.
I don’t think any fascist leader would fit conventional standards of attractiveness.
I think that’s part of what drew them into fascist thinking, the idea that being “the great leader” would make da wahmenz respect them finally.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence fascism came into existence so soon after women’s rights did. The autonomy and personhood of women is something the fascist inherently contempts, and their ability to say no is something the fascist resents above everything else, the idea that there’s work they have to do to earn a woman’s trust and respect instead of just being able to buy her off her father once he’s successful enough.
This is related to but not entirely the same as the impulses behind the cries of family values among the American christian right. That is more about the idea of literal patriarchy than the individual grievance some incel has with the break with it.
Patriarchy is the mythologized past that fascism seeks to return to in a frustrated reflex to the idea that the fascists have been “cut off” by moves away from patriarchy when they “did everything right.” They view it as the same kind of frustration as people who studied at university only to find themselves stuck in minimum wage work, because they feel the same entitlement to control over a family unit from being a good little christian boy that a student feels to some promise of a career for completing four years of specialized study.
I’ll never understand anyone who thinks Trump is charismatic. The creature is positively grating, not only in content but also in delivery.
Charisma has never been making the most intelligent, reasoned argument and therefore winning. That’s Logic.
Charisma is just convincing people to agree with you.
Trump the definition of an Ivory Tower billionaire godless criminal.
Trailer parkers don’t vote Trump because they love tax cut for billionaires while they live on the welfare he vows to cut. They vote Trump because he yees their haws, and vice versa.
Charisma has never been making the most intelligent, reasoned argument and therefore winning. That’s Logic.
No, but charisma is generally related to the evocation of emotion with skillful or passionate rhetoric.
Instead, Trump drones on like an old man in a semi-monotone while whinging in the most childish way about every perceived wrong against him, and his brainless followers go wild.
Unironically, I think this is part of the big appeal of fascism and fascistic movements.
People need something to belong to. People need brothers and sisters who see the world the same way they do, who will support them if they’re in trouble, and will ask in exchange for trust and respect and support from their side. It’s part of life. If you don’t have that, something inside you is missing and it’ll never feel settled. Nothing about any of that is wrong – it’s how people are designed to live, in a little village with people they know well and can depend on. It’s right.
Outside your family (if you’re lucky), that just doesn’t exist in America. Daily life is bullshit. It’s coworkers who, let’s be honest, mostly don’t give a shit, and you don’t either, and everyone understands that it’s all a bunch of crap and a big waste of time (unless you’re very lucky). Every day doesn’t matter. You and the people around you and the interactions you have with them, in the final analysis are pretty much a waste of time. But you need money, so you keep getting up and doing it anyway. But something feels very wrong, even if after a while you go numb, and you write off that numbness as “growing up” and “the real world.”
And then, here comes this grouping, maybe with some friends of yours in it, and it’s got an epic mission and an epic struggle. And, people aren’t just talking – they’re doing it. They’re going out on the streets and having rallies, and they bail each other out if someone gets arrested, and they talk about people who are in the thick of it who are finally fighting to make things better (and, let’s be honest, no one anywhere can say that things in America don’t need a ton of help). When they hang out, they have stuff they can talk about and get passionate about, and get confirmation that they’re on the same team. There’s risk. There’s decision. And, most importantly, there are allies.
It’s like pornography for that need for belonging. And so for the first time in your life, something feels right that never did before.
I saw an old, old German man in an interview talking about going to Nazi rallies when he was young. He said, of course now I understand how wrong it was and all the suffering we caused. And of course we all suffered terribly, after the war, because of what we’d done. But even now today sitting with you, I can think back to that time and that electric feeling, going to those massive rallies with all my people, and everyone shouting and singing all together, and Hitler up in front – in person – on the PA in his piercing, passionate voice… and I miss it. I wish I could go back, because it was wonderful.
Absolutely. I would just emphasize something that you alluded to in the fourth paragraph. A populist movement feeds not only the deep-seated human desire for Belonging, but also our profound yearning for Meaning. (War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges is a fantastic book which describes it in the context of war.)
I’ve long thought that the U.S. is ripe for a takeover of populism because of our hyper-individualistic culture, and the way that our lives have been systematically strip-mined of meaning in pursuit of profit.
Go into the woods, find a deer, follow it
you’ve found your deer leader
“Charismatic” fuck off. He’s just a cunt who allows the other cunts to stop pretending. Fucking worthless traitor filth.
Poe’s Law enforcement never fails to show up late, angry and confused- lol.
I don’t want a cult leader, I want someone who takes their role as a public servant seriously.
A-goddamnmotherfucking-men.
A-goddamnmotherfucking-person thank you very much…
Yeah because every sequence of the letter’s M, E and N refer to human males…
Sorry not sorry I’m an etymology fan and the ‘a-women’ inversion is just plain stupid so please stop.
I had to reread this several times to realize your previous comment was playing off of “amen”, rather than being a request for “a man”. Dunno how many others had the same issue understanding you though.
OMNG DEMORCAT so bad SO BAD i’m crying. HAET HOR BIDEN so bad so bad voet 3RD PARTY YERAH BROw
In what is supposed to be a rational society, people keep on stumbling over their need to worship somebody, and instead of giving a prolonged chance to the boring type of elected government nerds of places like Denmark and the Netherlands - most resembled by Democrats - the lazy thinkers keep getting bored by them, while the crazy and/or greedy other half keeps getting mesmerized by figures like that Bedtime For Bonzo mediocre actor, the fake cowboy of New Hampshire, the orange parasite with an emperor complex.
All this while state and federal legislative bodies are buzzing with the constant hollow reactionary rage of republican demagogues, con men, closeted homosexuals, ideological crazies, etc, you name it, constantly sabotaging every and all well-meaning initiatives, then blaming Democrats for it, which enough bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe idiots are going to believe because they read some goddamned tweets and never bothered to fact check, from the ivory tower of their truthiness purity.
Nope. Not wrong.
Saved to images. This one stands alone quite well.
Edit: so I don’t mean it if OP is literal which I didn’t interpret this as. I took it as an anti-conservative anti-Trump-apologist meme. Which it fits as.
He isn’t ‘charasmatic’…
Hitler was charismatic and charming
Dont vote on charms. Vote on what is right
I think looking for the polar opposite is a misstep. We want a leader. Someone that can unify us and make things happen. This isn’t a grudge match or a sporting event. That’s what they want as politicians.
As a citizen I want our government to help us by making decisions that help everyone involved. Keeping businesses here to keep money in the community and checking those companies when they are violating basic rights of those people.
I really don’t think it’s too much to ask.
As a citizen I want our government to help us by making decisions that help everyone involved.
Yeah that’s the problem. People just want to trust someone else to work out the details of whatever general outcome they would like to see in the world.
Trouble is a healthy democracy depends on devoted, diligent participation from citizens to steer society towards their goals and away from the opportunistic and power hungry. But that doesn’t happen unless\until a critical mass of voters accept the responsibility to take the wheel and see themselves as co-leaders rather than waiting for a savior.
Unfortunately there’s just not enough voters out there that believe in self-government to actually self-govern so we’re just going to choose who rules us for a while until we just don’t get to choose anymore.
I think that’s not necessary. Having some insight is good. But I don’t want to have to study laws and all sorts of crap just to vote. I want to live my life. I think should be able to pay attention and have enough information to decide who should lead. Dedicating my life to knowing all of it is not something I want to spend so much energy on.
Yeah it’s a a tough balancing act. Ideally you shouldn’t have to study every legislative proposal but you should also know you can’t blindly ‘trust’ some dude that recites your team slogans to actually do what those slogans imply. Representative democracy is supposed to be the best of both worlds, but it still needs voters devoted to self-governance.
Sorry self-government isn’t easy but the quality of any democracy is directly related to the quality of the participants in that democracy. If you’re not willing to devote yourself to the quality of democracy you want to live in you cannot expect anything more.
“I hate fascism”, said no conservative ever. Well, at least not if they were being honest and not purposefully conflating fascism with leftism (ie. anything left of the Strasserites)
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Same energy as “I have a breeding fetish but I don’t ever want kids.”
Pretty sure that one’s kind of normal.
democrats only pretend to hate fascism. they secretly love it just as much as the GOP. our country has been closet fascist for a very long time now
What do you mean by democrats? Like, regular voting folks or elected officials? And do you have any examples?
The business plot is a pretty damn good example.
Yeah I heard Dems also ‘hate freedom’ and something about a pizza place being a front for human sacrifice. Good to find another devoted Alex Jones fan on Lemmy!
you must have missed the part where i bashed the GOP, good to find another victim on here that can’t read
Yo my dude. If you had to wager a bet on who was more likely to turn the US into a fascist hellscape, Biden or Trump. Where would you place your money? And why?
Here come some liberals to explain how you can support genocide and still not necessarily be a fascist.
