There are a lot of great ones in here, but there’s another perspective I think should be added. For a long time, employees have been commoditized. We’re resources. Interchangeable. And that gives companies tremendous power.
WFH puts us on more even footing. There are entire cities supported by a single industry or even company. Now we aren’t limited geographically in who we can work for. If you’re toxic to work for, we can leave. It saps the power of the leadership to say “my way or the highway.”
I don’t think this is the secret underlying reason. I agree it’s real estate values that are mainly driving it, but I think this is absolutely part of it. Toxic leaders (and every company has them) are finding people are less willing to tolerate their bullshit because they aren’t over a barrel to the same degree. Still need universal healthcare to really break their back.
Yeah for quite some time I have been saying labor is priced artificially low. All of the barriers to finding a new job while working. All the risks of even short-term unemployment. Workers are already fucked by the power imbalance but without any liquidity in the labor market it’s so much worse. WFH adds liquidity, they hate it.
We do need universal healthcare absolutely, take that out of the labor package but WFH I think will only be beneficial in the short term (for employees - I do think it beneficial for the environment) it’s a shorter step from WFH to outsourcing to get the cheapest labor cost. I see this happening even at my company, an event management company so we are all about in person stuff - we lost an accountant and they wouldn’t let us get a replacement, already we have the infrastructure to work from home so they said “no but you can have a consultant who works in India, she can do it cheaper.”
Not that they couldn’t have done this anyway, but in this particular case, they wouldn’t have done. WFH opened that door for this company.
That sort of move has been threatening the tech sector since the early 2000s and it hasn’t happened yet. Yes, some jobs moved overseas, but the timezone and language differences mean the ROI isn’t as big as a spreadsheet that accounts for salary says. Having to stay at work until 8pm and meet with the team in India at 8am their time isn’t going to be nearly as productive as meeting with people within a couple timezones.
but WFH I think will only be beneficial in the short term (for employees - I do think it beneficial for the environment) it’s a shorter step from WFH to outsourcing to get the cheapest labor cost.
I hate to break it to you, but as someone who was self-employed and doing contracting work throughout most of his career, I can’t tell you how many times I was replaced by remote/offshore Indian programmers, over the decades, for cost reasons. Was definitely going on way before Covid and WFH, and should not be a reason why to fear/stop WFH.
I’ve also seen the opposite happen - Bean counters think out sourcing to India will save lots of money, then they end up paying a more expensive us consulting company or independent consultant to come and clean up a mess, then they have to hire in house devs to maintain the code. Most of the out sourcing groups I’ve interacted with had a mentality of "we’ll do what was explicitly asked for and not a single thing more, and if we hit a roadblock, we’ll call it out and stop work until someone state side figures it out. And I can’t really fault them for the mentality - they know they’re being used because they’re cheaper labor, they don’t have any sense of ownership of the code, and when they develop stronger skills, they leave for a better opportunity.
I know there are strong devs in India, but I don’t think they usually end up in the out sourcing companies.
There are a lot of great ones in here, but there’s another perspective I think should be added. For a long time, employees have been commoditized. We’re resources. Interchangeable. And that gives companies tremendous power.
WFH puts us on more even footing. There are entire cities supported by a single industry or even company. Now we aren’t limited geographically in who we can work for. If you’re toxic to work for, we can leave. It saps the power of the leadership to say “my way or the highway.”
I don’t think this is the secret underlying reason. I agree it’s real estate values that are mainly driving it, but I think this is absolutely part of it. Toxic leaders (and every company has them) are finding people are less willing to tolerate their bullshit because they aren’t over a barrel to the same degree. Still need universal healthcare to really break their back.
Yeah for quite some time I have been saying labor is priced artificially low. All of the barriers to finding a new job while working. All the risks of even short-term unemployment. Workers are already fucked by the power imbalance but without any liquidity in the labor market it’s so much worse. WFH adds liquidity, they hate it.
We do need universal healthcare absolutely, take that out of the labor package but WFH I think will only be beneficial in the short term (for employees - I do think it beneficial for the environment) it’s a shorter step from WFH to outsourcing to get the cheapest labor cost. I see this happening even at my company, an event management company so we are all about in person stuff - we lost an accountant and they wouldn’t let us get a replacement, already we have the infrastructure to work from home so they said “no but you can have a consultant who works in India, she can do it cheaper.”
Not that they couldn’t have done this anyway, but in this particular case, they wouldn’t have done. WFH opened that door for this company.
That sort of move has been threatening the tech sector since the early 2000s and it hasn’t happened yet. Yes, some jobs moved overseas, but the timezone and language differences mean the ROI isn’t as big as a spreadsheet that accounts for salary says. Having to stay at work until 8pm and meet with the team in India at 8am their time isn’t going to be nearly as productive as meeting with people within a couple timezones.
I hate to break it to you, but as someone who was self-employed and doing contracting work throughout most of his career, I can’t tell you how many times I was replaced by remote/offshore Indian programmers, over the decades, for cost reasons. Was definitely going on way before Covid and WFH, and should not be a reason why to fear/stop WFH.
I’ve also seen the opposite happen - Bean counters think out sourcing to India will save lots of money, then they end up paying a more expensive us consulting company or independent consultant to come and clean up a mess, then they have to hire in house devs to maintain the code. Most of the out sourcing groups I’ve interacted with had a mentality of "we’ll do what was explicitly asked for and not a single thing more, and if we hit a roadblock, we’ll call it out and stop work until someone state side figures it out. And I can’t really fault them for the mentality - they know they’re being used because they’re cheaper labor, they don’t have any sense of ownership of the code, and when they develop stronger skills, they leave for a better opportunity.
I know there are strong devs in India, but I don’t think they usually end up in the out sourcing companies.
Yep, that too. Made a lot of my consulting money fixing problems/issues that were created from overseas workers.
No, they don’t. At least I’ve never seen them, and I’ve worked on a lot of projects. You get what you paid for.
“we do need”? Because everyboby is murican oh the whole Internet
I’m curious if the move to large corps investing in residential properties is due to the collapse of value in the commercial market.
Me too. That’s a good question.