• Moonrise2473@feddit.it
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    2 years ago

    “we respect the protests, but we will remove everyone that will protest”

    the part “decide that don’t want to be a mod anymore” is so infuriating and unrespectful. Like they don’t know what’s goin on…

    • TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      Actually, as a mod, that’s the strongest action you could take… stop moderating for free for reddit. “Jun 12, 2023 When they’re all functioning normally, Reddit boasts nearly 140,000 active subreddits at any given time” according to https://wegotthiscovered.com/social-media/how-many-subreddits-are-on-reddit/ Now imagine 1 in 10 subreddits were abandoned by their mods. That’s 14,000 subreddits without moderation. Let Spez take over the role of the Landed Gentry for 14,000 subreddits. If he thinks he’s not making money now, how much will he have to pay to take care of all those subreddits?

      • NooBoY@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        As much as I agree with you, I have to disagree as well. In the short term they would have to pay their staff to mod those pages. But for how long will it take for them to find another sucker of a mod to do it for free?

        Yes it would cost them money but it would not be for long.

        • dustyData@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          That’s slippery. Pay one mod, and no more mods will be willing to work for free anymore. The only reason a mod was seen as a volunteer position is because there was an overall informal agreement that the community collectively owned the subreddit, its activity and its content. Reddit just made it very clear that they think the corporation owns the content, and the users that produce the content in the subreddits. The facade is gone, pay one mod and Reddit unravels even faster.

              • hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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                2 years ago

                That would make the decision even more short sighted.

                It won’t end with AI moderation, It will end with moderation that is very exploitable, bad to adjust to all subreddits and because of this whole mess they will drive community engagement into the ground. And that is without even so much as taking a peak on the possible affects to the IPO. It’s gonna be mess, even if the platform survives.

                • Ruyh@lemmy.world
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                  2 years ago

                  You are not wrong, but I can totally see a ceo saying “yeah with AI we do not need mods”, and then risking it.

            • takeda@lemmy.world
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              2 years ago

              The AI that media is talking about generating text that looks very much like what a human would write. There might be other AI capable of moderating, but this is not it.

              The LLM could be used to pretend there are users if one day they would go somewhere else.

        • Buelldozer@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          But for how long will it take for them to find another sucker of a mod to do it for free?

          Modding, especially on larger subs, is a PITA and takes way more time than most people think. You can always find users who say they will do it but in my experience with across several 1M+ subs most new mods will either drop out or go inactive in 3 weeks or less.

          Less popular subs in the 250k user range will sometimes only get 1 or 2 volunteers and sometimes no one at all.

          It isn’t nearly as easy to replace moderators as you’re making it out to be.

          • NooBoY@lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            I do agree with you. It could take a while for them to find someone to mod any sub. I was not trying to be too specific with how long. Just that eventually they will find someone to do it. I probably should have been more clearer about that. It was just was my 2 cents.

        • TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          Spez is a narcissist. Why give him your labor for free?

          Sure, they may get another sucker to do it for free, why be a narcissist’s sucker?

          If he’s abused these mods, he’ll abuse those mods. And yes, he could get AI to do this, but then again, years ago* (Steve H became CEO in 2015) we were promised a better Reddit app. Like the music business, Reddit is constantly losing money, unwilling to change, but still around.

          *I would link it, but for some reason, U/Spez’s history stops 3 years ago. I’m sure it’s a Reddit glitch that will be fixed just like the better Reddit app that’s waiting for us under the rainbow.

          https://www.reddit.com/user/spez

  • Phoephus@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Dear person volunteering your time and effort for what you thought was a worthy endeavor. We’re trying to commodify your work so we can make a killing so don’t fuck it up for us.

    • atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
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      2 years ago

      Dear Spez,

      I’ve learned that Reddit wants to profit from my content. I’ve therefore decided to monetize my content going forward. I have very reasonable rates of $50 USD per post. $75 USD for long posts.

      I’m willing to discuss this with Reddit but these rates are nonnegotiable.

    • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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      2 years ago

      It’s not even true though. Subreddits belong to the user who creates it, they become the top mod and delegate to other mods. If users don’t like how a subreddit is moderated, they are free to make their own subreddit - they aren’t supposed to take over someone else’s subreddit.

      • PixxlMan@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        This is the fundamental shift that reddit is trying to make right now. Subs no longer belong to you, and if you “misbehave” (displease reddit) they’ll gladly move what they now consider to be their thing to someone else.

        • The Menemen!@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          Legally they might even be in their rights. But if they actually follow through they’ll soon need paid mods or they’ll only have unsuccessful psychopaths for mods.

          • Vyxor@lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            I’m not so sure about that. I’m no lawyer, but I do know that there’s a lot of legal precedent for allowing people/things to operate a certain way, like land use. However, technology is still new to the legal system that’s set in the 1800s.

  • ritswd@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    “Reopen this, or else!”

    But they’re carefully avoiding to say or else what. My guess is every next step option would cost them resources at the scale of subreddits they’re reaching out to, so they’re hoping that the empty threat alone will cause some to relent without costing them anything. Right?

    • mcc@sh.itjust.works
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      2 years ago

      What’s there to take? Like, these guys are working for free running on their enthusiasm and passion. You make them question whether the community is really worth their time, even if they relent for now, how does that do reddit any good? It isn’t like reddit has any actual power over the mods on their ultimate decision of quiting.

      • Jamie@jamie.moe
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        2 years ago

        Unfortunately, from what I’m seeing in a lot of subs, it’s working. You do have protests from places like r/aww and r/pics doing the John Oliver thing, and r/Steam posting about literal steam. But it seems like on the large, threats of people losing their ability to give Reddit free labor is working to get subs back open.

        Edit: r/pics changed, they’ve chosen total anarchy.

        • dustyData@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          They are slowly snowballing but it’s accelerating. Once a certain amount of people leaves or stops interacting altogether, the site bleeds activity and dies. Roughly 2% of people who went on Reddit were responsible for some 90% of the content. 50% of people browsed without an account (you want those because they’re the eyeballs ad are meant for) and the rest were lurkers who occasionally commented. That means if that even half of that 2% of content creators leave, there’s no more content for the rest of the users to see or interact with. Once they leave, all lurkers leave. None of the lurkers are going to take up posting to Reddit, modding or create an account. They will just close the tab and move on to something else. That’s the snowball that’s coming.

          (Numbers are roughly remembered from an old analysis of Reddit traffic, but they’re consistent with almost all social media)

          • Skjeggape @lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            Responding solely to move from Reddit lurker to a Lemmy contributor… this is literally the secret right here… join the revolution, hit the effing reply button, y’all…

          • PapaTorque@lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            I did not know it was so low. That’s crazy. It makes sense though. I don’t know anyone who posts in real life. All the people I know who use Reddit are just lurkers.

            • PickTheStick@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Just think in terms of the not ‘in your face’ subs. Memes/pics and such were easy to make a post and it either goes up or goes down, but most other subs would need a little more thought/time for a post to be made.

              I was a member of a 2-4 million subreddit, and I think there were only about 20-40 posts a day. Some repetitive posts were removed by the mod bot that you would occasionally see, so maybe a few more than those 20-40, but even the most prolifically engaged-with comment sections would max out around 400 comments.

        • mcc@sh.itjust.works
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          2 years ago

          On a sunny day walking on a trail, one can’t help but to contemplate all they are going to do when they are out of the woods and back home. By that point all they are going to remember is the thinly veiled threat. They are not going to last long.

          Reddit was fun. That was really the only thing everyone need and everyone want. All the utilities that comes with the scale is just derivatives. With the way they decide to go forward, molding for reddit will never be fun ever again.

    • treadful@lemmy.zip
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      2 years ago

      They’d most likely take over at least the frontpage subs. They could hire contractors for dirt cheap from the far corners of the world and it would probably be good enough.

  • h14h@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Reddit: “Subreddits are for the community of reddit users who rely on them.”

    Community of reddit users: “We think the sub should stay private, and if you force it open, we’ll spam sexy John Oliver and porn.”

    Reddit: “wait no not like that”

    This message is mind-blowingly tone deaf.

    • Flipht@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      It’s not tone deaf so much as it’s gaslighting. Their intention isn’t to get compliance or work through any of the valid concerns - their intention seems to be to cover themselves and give plausible deniability for potential investors.

      They’re sending this to mods as if they are the audience, which we know is not the case since anything the mods say is not actually considered.

    • Ronath@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      Except that’s not always what’s happening. A couple subs I’m in have voted to reopen, when they’ve had the ability to vote at all (since it’s hard to vote when the subreddit is locked).

      One voted to reopen and the mods removed the poll and are pretending it went their way despite some people having screenshots of the poll.

      • c0c0c0@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        The sad truth is, now that many of us who would otherwise protest have migrated, those who are left are less likely to protest.

  • joneskind@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    “Hey mod! Go back working for free so we can make money or we’ll take action you peasant. You own nothing. Kneel and obey.”

    Steve Hoffman probably

  • Izzy@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Alright. They can hire some employees to moderate all of Reddit then.

  • RIotingPacifist@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Subreddits belong to the community of users…

    So you’re providing tools to allow democratic control of subreddits, right?

    Right?

  • TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Moderating is volunteer work. *Spez exhibits unlikeable characteristics. Why volunteer for someone who exhibits unlikeable characteristics?

    *Edited from “Spez is a narcissist. Why volunteer for a narcissist?”

    • Admax@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      Because I’m sure all those people aren’t volonteering for spez but rather the subs users, the ones that keep their communities alive because of their shared interests.

    • HardlightCereal@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      “Narcissist” is a psychological term describing a person with NPD, a disability in ego regulation. There is no evidence that Spez is disabled, neurodivergent, or otherwise mentally disordered. Even if he did suffer from ego disability, there are plenty of good reasons to hate him, and hating someone for being disabled is a bad reason. Comments like this one contribute to the stigma faced by mentally disordered people.

      • TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        OK; he has such a need for control that he modified toxic comments directed at him.

        On November 23, 2016, a member of a subreddit dedicated to Donald Trump, /r/The_Donald, posted evidence indicating that Reddit administrators had modified multiple user comments inside the subreddit. Following this post, Huffman took responsibility for the comment modifications, writing, “Our community team is pretty pissed at me, so I most assuredly won’t do this again.” His administrative modifications involved changing one specific insulting phrase, in several comments, to make them appear as if the insults were directed toward the moderators of the subreddit instead of him.

        https://gizmodo.com/reddit-ceo-caught-secretly-editing-user-comments-chatl-1789342358

        You might not like Ellen Pao, but it’s funny that the NBA sided with her comments against him in 2020:

        https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/reddit-slammed-by-former-ceo-ellen-pao-for-amplifying-racism-and-hate-nfl-nba/

        When moderators protested in 2023, Spez compared them to Landed Gentry.

        “And I think, on Reddit, the analogy is closer to the landed gentry: The people who get there first get to stay there and pass it down to their descendants, and that is not democratic.”

        https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/reddit-protest-blackout-ceo-steve-huffman-moderators-rcna89544

        Reddit was founded in 2005. In January of 2008, Reddit decides to let users create their own custom reddits, or subreddits.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Reddit

        So the Landed Gentry are from 2008 + (15 years). How many Parent-to-child hand-offs can you really expect in that time?

        He belittles volunteers (moderators). He has manipulated the site. He is currently scrubbing the site of disparaging comments about himself now.

        https://lemmy.world/post/392621

        He is not someone to volunteer your services for. Moderation is like gardening. It’s a never-ending activity of pulling weeds.

        • HardlightCereal@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          You listed a lot of great reasons to hate Spez, and none of them are that he’s disabled. I said in my comment that there are plenty of good reasons to hate Spez, and that hating him for being disabled is a bad reason. It seems like we fundamentally agree on the premise that Spez is a garbage dickbag, and why. Since we agree so strongly, maybe you could edit your top level comment to remove the part where you call him a narcissist. That way we can focus on bad things that he’s done rather than an alleged disability.

          • TheOneWithTheHair@lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            Ok, I have edited my comment to “*Spez exhibits unlikeable characteristics. Why volunteer for someone who exhibits unlikeable characteristics?” better now?

          • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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            2 years ago

            Narcissism has existed long before the DSM. I’m not certain why it should be inferred that someone is disabled or have NPD if they are simply a narcissist.

            • HardlightCereal@lemmy.world
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              2 years ago

              Because the term “narcissist” entered the public discourse as a shorthand for “person with narcissistic personality disorder”, and that’s what pop psychologists, self help book writers, and lifestyle gurus mean when they say narcissist. That’s where the word’s use in pop culture comes from. It refers to a person with an ego disability.

    • Deestan@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      It’s corporate rhetoric.

      They define the reality they want their audience (press, investors) to see: No protests, no demands, no conflict with Reddit, just moderators not taking their job seriously while Reddit is taking its communities seriously and reaching out in good faith and with empathy.

      Then they go all method actor and assume this reality, and start writing.

  • Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
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    2 years ago

    lol, “subreddits belong to the community of users…” clearly doesn’t belong to the users. That’s the whole problem

    • Skyrkazm@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      This is why I left reddit, they say they care for the community. Only to use their actions to remove good moderators (maybe 1 or 2 bad ones in the process of this fire bombing of bans) and the nail in the coffin being u/spez doing more dumb decisions. Like doubling down on the API. . . Despite the protests and his app going downhill.

      • Something_Complex@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        I like how we made fun of the mods, but all stood up for them.

        They are our mods, only we can make fun of them XD.

        Eddit:almost all

  • RinktheDink@lemmy.world
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    Subreddita belong to the community is not what reddit says when mods abuse their power