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I don’t think there is a single person behaves that way online that thinks it doesn’t change the person they are IRL. It’s just online they have the balls to be the person they really want to be.
I know a couple of people (brothers) who definitely thought that online wasn’t real and they could act without any consequences in their real life. This was back in the 00’s when social media was just catching on. They were absolutely awful to real life friends online and then acted like nothing happened in person. They lost pretty much every friend they had as a result of it. I still don’t talk to either of them. We tried to explain to them multiple times that it was absolutely unacceptable behavior, and they thought it was funny.
Oh you sweet summer child. Everyone is the hero of their own adventure.
Actually I just need to address this a little further because this is a beautiful example of what I’m discussing. All I did was post my opinion and you came along being a condescending ass about it. Do you believe that doesn’t count towards who you really are?
Wow so touchy. Not only was that not condescending, it was lighthearted. Yet you’re just too fucking miserable to not make it personal huh?
And there’s some very hostile toxicity and insults.
Again…is this not the real you? Do you believe that?
Allow me to come in and analyze both of your conversations.
Firstly, I think you probably misinterpreted the “sweet summer child” thing. I think it is pretty lighthearted, but I do understand how it could come off condescending. You were the first to use an insult, though, for calling the person an ass.
On the other hand, the person also engaged in insult throwing, by calling you too fucking miserable to take something lightly.
Finally, do I think either of you would’ve thrown such tantrums in the real world over such a stupid issue? Absolutely not. Do I think both of you are complete assholes for being assholes to each other online, based on misinterpretation of tone? Also no. Would I talk like this in real life, butting into a conversation I’m not a part of, offering my opinion that nobody asked for, and generally being annoying? Also no.
Does it mean I’m annoying in real life? Probably still yes. But I also think that you are probably not both assholes IRL.
So in regards to your point, I absolutely would use that language in real life and no one I know would be offended by the words ‘sweet summer child’ unless maybe English was their second language. If EdibleFriend responded by getting in my face and calling me an ass and we weren’t in public he would be on the floor very quick. And likely would if he said that to anybody. Analyze that how you will. The internet doesn’t teach social skills.
I mean, I would also use sweet summer child in real life. I have. But people don’t always know it’s a joke, and I understand that. I certainly wouldn’t deck them if they called me an ass, that seems a bit extreme. Probably would go on the verbal defensive, try to explain it was a joke, and feel bad that they took it the wrong way.
But if that’s how you carry yourself through life, I can only say I feel bad for you that someone else’s words would affect you so much as to prompt you to physically assault them. Just seems a bit silly, doesn’t it.
I’ll be honest maybe it was a little lighthearted but… At the same time still condescending and there was no need for it in relation to my perfectly innocent opinion on this post. Especially when it comes down to it he clearly didn’t understand my opinion because ’ everyone is the hero of their own story’ honestly completely fits with my point of ’ people don’t look at their online behavior has not actually being the real them.’
When people are complete assholes on the internet they feel justified. When people said death threats on Instagram they believe they were doing the right thing.
And I’ll be honest… Yep. I behave like this in person too. If somebody’s condescending to me I call them on it so… Yep. I would have behaved just like this in person.
Thank you for actually talking rationally about this though :)
Zizek says that our online persona is our real persona, because it doesn’t have the weights and limitations of our physical bodies and can be free to express as itself.
I don’t know, this sounds very mind body duality to me but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume such a duality exists?
I think being removed from legal or social ramifications enables a lot of misbehavior. If there were social or legal ramifications for online behavior, then maybe people would behave consistently online and offline. In fact, you see that with places like LinkedIn.
Before social media, “trolling” was a game of inciting reactions without malicious intent. IIRC the norm was to induce anger or reaction or exhaustion without using violent language, like death threats etc. But of course people always behave stupidly for any number of reasons! The death threat people, from my old school pov, are not OG trolls. The death threat people are politically motivated actors or sociopaths.
So I think it’s less about being real online vs fake, and more about what you’re doing vs everyone else. If you’re looking for a cozy time online, then someone coming in to incite reaction by being contrarian (because that’s interesting to them) would seem aggravating to you, and that’s just unkind of the contrarian person (or troll).
If you’re shitposting and assume everyone is just a troll trolling trolls (and that’s true), then all interactions are performative and a game. However this cannot apply anymore because the rules of engagement on the web have changed, and there a lot more people online now with different needs and different expectations. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inclusive. The chans etc. are filled with glowies or nation state actors, so it’s not worth engaging in old school trolling in any form because you just provide convenient camouflage for people with malicious intent or political agendas.
So in short no, I don’t think body vs non body is the reason for differences in irl or online behavior.
I genuinely miss the good-spirited trolling that existed before the political-minded decided to abuse it, ruining it for everyone :'/
If you’re shitposting and assume everyone is just a troll trolling trolls (and that’s true), then all interactions are performative and a game. However this cannot apply anymore because the rules of engagement on the web have changed, and there a lot more people online now with different needs and different expectations. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inclusive.
Maybe I just have an old school mentality about this, but wouldn’t this be kinda, a better stance to take, even if you were looking for a cozy time online? Would it not be the more accommodating position? A troll is easier to dismiss out of hand for being bad faith, rather than assuming someone who’s good faith, but inflammatory, has entered into your space and decided to talk shit and incite reaction. One of those cuts it off before you spend more thought process on it. Thought terminating cliches are useful sometimes, for controlling your own behavior and not engaging with that which you do not wish to seriously engage. Which, I think, is something we need more much of, online. The fallacies are fine, it’s just that they are meant to be helpful to you, personally, rather than being a kind of, moral creed to which we all must conform, a creed that must be enforced, if not by strict rule, than by a kind of unspoken social norm, by chastisement.
I think probably it’s also weird that people comment like “this person is a troll” or “this person is a bot” as like, a kind of weird flag that’s supposed to be helpful, but then they expect not to get engaged with after they post that, by the poster. I’m not super convinced the people doing that “flagging” are always doing it in good faith, though, anyways.
Makes sense. It does make me wonder how many people I meet IRL secretly want to beat me up though.
The only difference is that if you do it online and not in real life, you’re a coward, two-faced, or both.
I think this as well. People in on-line video games are so quick to flame, troll, and ruin a game. But Ask them if they think it reflects poorly on them and they’ll either get defensive, victim-blame, or say they were just joking. They complain about having bad community scores in these games, and blame literally everyone else before they can admit any semblance of culpability. Saw it in DOTA 2, saw it in Smite, and every other online forum.
However, we all lose our cool sometimes. I am usually the chillest dude on the server, but if I’ve had 3 games in a row of being flamed, trolled, having teammates quit, and on that fourth game some teammate “woohoo’s” my death? I’m already so steamed from the previous games that I’ll unleash a nasty comment right back, even if the dude accidentally hit the wrong emoticon thing. And if they are legit trolling, and I’m fed up? yeah, that’s definitely a nasty message right back at’em.
I guess I’m trying to say, we all lose our cool on-line once in a while, just like we all lose our cool in real life once in a while. Those once-in-a-while situations don’t define us, as long as most-of-the-time we’re chill. But if you’re edging towards losing your cool most-of-the-time, with your chill moments only once-in-a-while? then yeah, man. you’re the a-hole.
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The true test of a person’s character is what he they do when no one is watching.
with no apologies to john wooden
Sleep, and sometimes masturbate?
You think no one is watching? :)
Try to do a D.Urge bg3 chaotic evil run but then quit because I feel bad?
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There is no division between who you pretend to be and who you are.
This is quite the nice message in view of imposter syndrome too. If you’re being a kind person online then you are simply a kind person.
humans regularly put on acts. Work, love life, friends, family etc. What makes online an exception?
It isn’t. People who are willing to act like assholes, in any context, are assholes. What is the criteria for being an asshole if it isn’t acting like one?
I suppose notable exception for literal actors playing a role in a performance.
See the Nazi Bar Problem.
It’s objectively an asshole move to refuse to serve a paying customer who is causing no issues and to imply violence if they don’t leave, but is the bartender in question really an asshole at the end of the day?
No, because the Nazi would absolutely use violence and other coercive means if he had the backup to feel safe doing so, like by having his Nazi friends join him at the quickly emptying seats at the new Nazi bar.
If the bartender doesn’t want future problems he needs to act now.
Wait, the bartender in the anecdote isn’t an asshole in the context of his story.
Stanford prison experiment is generally accepted as bunk science nowadays and it’s conclusions should not be used to inform opinions of someone’s actions.
absolute lie!
I am funny when I’m online.
My toxic trait is that online I code switch to calling out bullshit instead of sitting quietly listening to nonsense
Yeah, now that you mention it, the Lemmy version of me is just like the real version of me except I talk to strangers.
I’ve asked myself in the past, if someone found my account, would they be shocked to read what I posted? I want the answer to be no. I wouldn’t want someone IRL to see my account activity and be shocked by what an asshole/troll I am on the internet. I hope that the person I am on the internet is at least as kind as I perceive myself IRL, if not kinder.
Honestly my username is based off my real name and I use it for a number of other things my family members all know about. At best, they might be surprised and some of my comments discussing events they were involved with, and perhaps my descriptions of how the religion some of them are still in harmed me, because I don’t bother discussing that with those still religious du3 to not wanting to fight.
Of course, I’m mentioning specifically my comments to reddit and both lemmy accounts. Why do I have two? I started on World then World defederated a few communities I was interested in keeping up with, not because I really participated, but because I like having a balanced input and some were interesting for work (mostly piracy and privacy, as I work in IT). I don’t use reddit anymore except maybe old solutions for work stuff, but I still have much more comments there than on lemmy so far.
(This is my other account).
…
(OK I have a NSFW one too, but I never comment or post on that one. Not sexy enough.)
I might be calling myself out a little, but VRchat and its avatars do an astronomical amount of heavy lifting in that department.
I disagree with this. The issue is more nuanced than that.
Sometimes people have a bad day now and then, and sometimes a bully needs to be bullied back.
That makes sense, but it seems to support the underlying idea that your internet persona matches your actual persona. Like, those nuances and days that are exceptions to the rule happen in the real world just like online.
There’s a huge difference between your true self and your societal masks. Just because you don’t act on your base impulses, because of the repercussions, doesn’t mean you don’t have and experience them.
So everyone is an asshole then? This form of thought makes it impossible not to be.
Nah, I’m saying if you naturally have mean thoughts, that you constantly need to suppress, then you’re probably an asshole. I would assume most people are generally good.
Alright. I may have misread your comment.
I think this is due to the person’s definition of asshole being someone who sends death threats
Eh… there are abundant examples of assholes who have learned to pretend to be decent people though.
I think that’s the point, if you’re an asshole online, but tell yourself you’re fine irl. You’re lying to yourself and it shows.
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The ironing is hilarious.
Yes, there is plenty of “ironing” here. I had initially read “you” as being directed at me rather than being directed at a hypothetical person, but once I recognized my mistake I deleted the comment and corrected my reply, because I do attempt to be fair to others.
Well then that’s a clear example of someone pretending to be something they aren’t, which contradicts the entire premise. Someone can absolutely pretend to be a saint on social media while being full of vitriol inside. Similarly, expressing anger and frustration on social media does not in any way mean that you’re ruled by those things.
It doesn’t contradict the premise at all. In fact, I think the person I described is the exact person the post is talking about, i.e. someone who is convinced that their actions online don’t translate to who they are irl.
It’s true that one instance of anger doesn’t mean the person is an asshole. The point of the post is that your post history on social media is often a more accurate portrait of your personality irl than some people want to admit.
