Defiant Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu doubled down on opposition to Palestinian statehood, deepening the divide with Israel’s closest international allies, as cracks in his wartime “unity” government became increasingly evident.
Anger with Netanyahu is also increasingly visible on the streets, even though there is broad public support for the war. On Saturday, protesters gathered in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Caesarea and Kfar Saba, some calling for bolder action to secure the release of hostages, and others demanding the prime minister step down.
One in Jerusalem held a placard that read: “Mothers’ cry: we will not sacrifice our children in the war to save the rightwing.”
The US invasion of Afghanistan post 9/11 was a unique opportunity to establish democracy in Afghanistan. That didn’t exactly work out.
There’s the crux of the problem. There have been opportunities for a Palestinian state in the past. It failed because there isn’t any good leadership among Palestinians. So I’m not sure how this is actually an opportunity for Palestinian statehood.
I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking going on here. I wish this was a non-violent resistance movement lead by someone that believed in peace and democracy. Then a Palestinian state would be a no-brainer. But unfortunately that’s just not the scenario. Palestinian leaders are corrupt and if a Palestinian state were declared it would likely be a failed state.
Afghanistan returning back to what it was before isn’t as big a deal to Americans because it’s not on the border of the US. A Palestinian failed state (which is basically what Gaza has been for the last decade and a half) would be on the border of Israel, within rocket range of any terrorist groups that can be supplied by Iran.
A lot of people don’t know this, but they tried this in 2018. It was called the Great March of Return. Gazaans tried protesting non violently for weeks, and faced a fierce violent response, but it was largely ignored by international news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
The existence of people willing to protest peacefully doesn’t make the violence of Hamas no longer exist. Especially when the peaceful protests turn a blind eye to the violence of Hamas. You can’t claim it’s a peaceful movement while there’s a violent movement happening concurrent to it.
And are you really claiming Israel didn’t have good reason to be nervous about Palestinians crossing the border into Israel after what happened on October 7? What happened on that day proved that building a fence and blockading Gaza were justified. We’ve seen what Hamas does when given the opportunity to enter into Israel, so why are you still upset that a peaceful movement that would have allowed Hamas to enter Israel in among them wasn’t allowed to proceed? Are you really so in denial about what happened on October 7, what Hamas did, that you can’t retire the talking points you’re used to repeating for the last five years? Hamas proved that Israel was correct to defend it’s border with force.
I’m not really sure what point you’re arguing. I think you might be reading things into my observation that aren’t there.
My point was that it’s unfortunate that non-violence civil disobedience appears to have been found to be highly infective under the conditions within Gaza at least circa 2018-19.
I think it’s weird when someone says “Oct. 7 is proof that Israel was right to ______.” Because while much is up for debate, I think the one thing we can agree is that Oct. 7 showed the overall security arrangement was a failure.
One can argue for any security strategy they like, but I don’t think anyone should point to Oct. 7 to justify any policy that led up to Oct. 7.
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Exactly how Netanyahu wants it. He and his Israeli government were instrumental in the growth of Hamas and the failure of more moderate Palestinian leadership.
This isn’t even some wack conspiracy theory. It’s his own words.
The west bank is a good example of non-violent resistance. Last news the killed afew people in a village who were sheep herders.
Israel history have a long list of massacres of peaceful people, pretending that Israel having a moment of far right crazy people is just misleading. It is like saying Nazism was caused by Hitler and not the people who supported him and still support him and believes in Nazi agendas.
Israel want to control the great kingdom of Israel. Evangelical want Israel to establish the great kingdom of Israel. Alot of wealthy Zainoist want the great kingdom of Israel.
Pretending this is not the case make people believe in false hope like two states solutions.
The previous attempts also failed because the offer of Palestinian statehood was not actually sovereign statehood. Israel continually insists that they alone will be in charge of security matters for a Palestinian state.
How many countries have been chomping at the bit to be in charge of security in Gaza?
If the US going to be putting boots on the ground in Gaza? Is anyone?
I’m talking about the long term and not just of Gaza but of an independent Palestinian state. Ultimately the Palestinian people will have to be in charge of the security of that state. Otherwise it is not a sovereign state but dependent on the whims of the Israeli government.
Yes, long term I want a Palestinian state, peace and harmony for all humankind, disbanding all militaries, destruction of all nuclear weapons and we can all hold hands and sing “Imagine all the people…”
But the question is, how do we get there from here?
This “failed state” Palestine would be the most free they have been in the better part of a century. Having a right of return, protections from illegal settlers, representation in the UN etc. The last free election in Gaza was also a narrow win for Hamas, and stability of statehood would be quite deradicalizing
Hell, even just control over their own electric, water, and internet access would be a game changer for Gaza.
Right of return is dead. Hamas killed it.
Israelis aren’t just going to allow Palestinians to come into Israel whenever they please after October 7. What are you smoking?
Sure maybe after a generation or two, if Palestinians can stop hating Israelis. But by then there will be no Palestinian old enough to have ever lived in Israel.
Are you making unrealistic demands knowing they aren’t feasible because you want this conflict to go on forever?
Palestinians won’t be de-radicalized until people the world over stop egging them on with their blood and soil justifications. A Palestinian state will only be possible a generation after the last person says “From the River to the Sea” and they give up on their fascist ideas of restoring the ethnic makeup of geographic areas to the way they were in a history book.
Some of the things Palestinians want could have been valid at a negotiating table. But when you choose violence the only thing that matters is which side has more capability of executing violence. And after you choose violence and lose, you aren’t going to get as much at a negotiating table as you would have had you not chosen violence. You can’t have people getting everything they want after using violence because it would be non-stop war and terrorism everywhere in the world.
So yeah, forget about right of return. 30 years ago that may have been possible, but Palestinians chose Hamas over right of return.
This has to be the most myopic statement I have ever read.
Nevermind
Jesus fucking christ, how do you think you have the moral high-ground when in the process of exhibiting your smug, superiority complex you are criticizing the Palestinians for trying to do the exact fucking thing that the Israeli’s already did. Don’t answer that because I know whatever you are going to say is going to be precisely the kind of sick, demented justification that has allowed this conflict to continue for as long as it has in the first place.
probably because the good up-and-coming leaders either got shot by IDF or recruited by Hamas, since there’s not much job prospects inside Palestine and Hamas smuggles supplies in
Palestinians put Hamas in power. Therefore it was the responsibility of Palestinians to remove them from power.
They didn’t do that, so now the IDF has to do it. But now we want a ceasefire before the job is done because we want to keep Hamas in power?
What choice do you think Palestinians have when Hamas smuggles weapons in.
What do Palestinians use to go against Hamas? Harsh words?
Yes.
Palestinians could denounce Hamas. When Hamas calls for protest, don’t go to those ones, only go to the ones that are called for by groups that denounce Hamas. Refrain from cosplaying as Hamas terrorists when attending protests. Refrain from using genocidal dog whistles like “from the river to the sea”. Refrain from shooting at synagogues. Protest at Israeli consulates not in Jewish communities. Refrain from trying to burn down Jewish businesses.
Ya’ know, they could do something anything at all to at least try to ostracize Hamas from their movement. Like anything? Like something to indicate that Hamas isn’t the driving force of their movement? Like throw me a fucking bone here, I want to some day not be disappointed by the actions of Palestinians. Because all I’m seeing is hatred and the belief that their hatred is justified and their hatred makes any horrific act they do is permissible. The only explanation I have for the behavior I’m seeing is that Palestine is a fascist society. It’s the only thing that fits. I’ve yet to hear anything from anyone Pro-Palestine that didn’t sound like it came out out the Goebbels playbook. Constantly pounding the victimization narrative, blood and soil (from the river to the sea!) narrative, the antisemitic narrative, the historical humiliation narrative. The constant violent fervor, Is there anything else going on?
What is the Palestinian plan to achieve statehood? Fire rockets at Israel and spew propaganda on the internet? Then continue with the victimization, humilation, blood and soil rhetoric when Israel responds to their attacks and the continue losing (while their billionaire leaders live large in Qatar) until they have nothing left?
Hatred is a funny thing, it can make people feel strong while it destroys them.
And people back then (me included) tried to get through to the Seppos that that’s exactly what’s going to happen. They said stuff like “It’s going to be just like Germany”, ignoring the social conditions that made, and still makes, Afghanistan quite distinct from Germany.
…just as you’re doing right now: Palestine is not Afghanistan. If you subtract the conflict from all the polling numbers they’re actually quite a bit more sensible than Floridians.
Sure it’s different, but how does a lack of leadership and a willingness for countries like Iran to fund terrorist groups there make it likely to succeed as an independent state?
Seems like a lot of wishful thinking going on.
It’s not about leadership it’s about civil society. Palestine actually has one, Afghanistan doesn’t, Palestine has home-grown secular democrats, Afghanistan very much didn’t.
I’m willing to at least consider a genocide of Florida.