Both sides are bad, yes. The fascists are far worse, of course, but it’s naive to think the DNC are some brave Democracy Defenders, when their sole interest is to uphold the rights and protections of Capital. Most of the bad things happening under Biden are actually because of Capitalism reaching an ever-later stage, Trump certainly made it worse but Biden isn’t making it better.
Should leftists vote for Biden to prevent Trump? 100%, abstaining from voting or voting third party is a spoiler vote in America and would result in fascists winning. Should liberals pretend that Leftists are the problem because leftists are understandably upset that they don’t have anyone to actually vote for, while liberals and fascists get to gleefully vote for their preferred candidates? Absolutely not.
Show me a functioning non capitalist society that is on the same or better level than the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, France… etc. i’ll wait.
Stop being delusional.
What “level?” Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn’t be as developed as the US overnight, that’s silly.
Secondly, you’re assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That’s false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don’t want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that’s absurd.
The very premise of your question is false, as you’re relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It’s an utter non-argument.
How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I’m in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you’re a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.
What’s wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What’s wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?
Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.
I won’t waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.
They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.
Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.
Again, what do you mean by “works?” There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you’re asking, or Rojava.
Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?
Both sides are bad, yes. The fascists are far worse, of course, but it’s naive to think the DNC are some brave Democracy Defenders, when their sole interest is to uphold the rights and protections of Capital. Most of the bad things happening under Biden are actually because of Capitalism reaching an ever-later stage, Trump certainly made it worse but Biden isn’t making it better.
Should leftists vote for Biden to prevent Trump? 100%, abstaining from voting or voting third party is a spoiler vote in America and would result in fascists winning. Should liberals pretend that Leftists are the problem because leftists are understandably upset that they don’t have anyone to actually vote for, while liberals and fascists get to gleefully vote for their preferred candidates? Absolutely not.
Show me a functioning non capitalist society that is on the same or better level than the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, France… etc. i’ll wait.
Stop being delusional.
What “level?” Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn’t be as developed as the US overnight, that’s silly.
Secondly, you’re assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That’s false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don’t want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that’s absurd.
The very premise of your question is false, as you’re relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It’s an utter non-argument.
LMAO youre a tankie. No wonder youre delusional.
Have fun in your dreams.
How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I’m in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you’re a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant even
Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.
What’s wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What’s wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?
Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.
I won’t waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.
You don’t think there are any successful communes or co-ops?
They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.
Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.
Again, what do you mean by “works?” There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you’re asking, or Rojava.
Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?