What “level?” Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn’t be as developed as the US overnight, that’s silly.
Secondly, you’re assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That’s false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don’t want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that’s absurd.
The very premise of your question is false, as you’re relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It’s an utter non-argument.
How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I’m in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you’re a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.
What’s wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What’s wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?
Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.
I won’t waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.
They’re literally all around you. A credit union is a cooperative, the Associated Press (AP) is a cooperative, there are a number of electric companies that are cooperatives which I’ve been a part of. Land 'o Lakes for gods sake is a cooperative! Even Texas has housing and brewery cooperatives! I don’t know why you’re being so combative, If you took 10 seconds to look it up you would know. Either you’ve been grossly misinformed by someone or your perceived notions need educated.
Land O’Lakes was founded on July 8, 1921, in Saint Paul, Minnesota, by representatives from 320 cooperative creameries as the Minnesota Cooperative Creameries Association.
This isn’t a new, fanciful, or dreamy thing. It’s a very real system that benefits everyone at the company including CEO’s.
“Workers in employee-owned firms tend to be more cooperative and interested in the firm’s performance, and display a greater willingness to work hard, which generally leads to reduced employee turnover, improved productivity, better pay, and increased job security.”
While cooperatives are well-known in many European countries, Americans may not realize that this model of organizing also has deep roots here. Cooperatives undergirded the early stages of U.S. capitalism, with communities establishing electrical cooperatives, insurance mutuals, and dairy cooperatives as alternatives to government bureaucracies and conventional firms alike. America’s early unions founded hundreds of industrial cooperatives to protect workers’ rights and share the gains of industry more equitably.
If you want to have a real conversation about co-ops I’m here for it. If you’re just going to respond with a snarky comment and nothing to back it up but anecdotal observations then I will not waste anymore time continuing further.
They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.
Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.
Again, what do you mean by “works?” There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you’re asking, or Rojava.
Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?
I am not talking about anything evil or how democracy is bad.
I am talking about communists being delusional.
Yall keep talking and yall keep proving it over and over again.
You don’t understand shit and just keep repeating stuff that didnt even work 70 years ago.
You are. You are directly saying democracy is bad when applied to labor, by saying Socialism and Communism are delusional, as all Socialism is is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production vs Individual ownership a la Capitalism.
You have additionally showcased how you genuinely don’t understand what anyone is talking about, and rather than attempt to engage with them, you just laugh and call everyone else delusional while you use an explicitly Socialist platform made by a Communist as a direct response to the failures of Capitalist Reddit.
Bringing you through the same example again: which is better, the factory owned and run by the Workers, or thr factory owned by a Capitalist and run by the Workers?
I understand that as both a landlord and a laborer, you’re petite bourgeoisie. As such, you are reactionary and thus stand against the progress of the Mode of Production from one of Capitalism to one of Socialism. However, your arguments can be directly copied and pasted to times of Feudalism. “If Capitalism is so great, why aren’t there Capitalists and businesses owned by them everywhere?” while in the midst of France pre-revolution would be just as valid as your arguments now. That is to say, they are entirely devoid of analysis and are a way for you to not have to actually think about your views.
Seriously answer me this, if nothing else: are worker co-operatives delusional?
What “level?” Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn’t be as developed as the US overnight, that’s silly.
Secondly, you’re assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That’s false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don’t want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that’s absurd.
The very premise of your question is false, as you’re relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It’s an utter non-argument.
LMAO youre a tankie. No wonder youre delusional.
Have fun in your dreams.
How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I’m in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you’re a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant even
Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.
What’s wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What’s wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?
Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.
I won’t waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.
You don’t think there are any successful communes or co-ops?
List them. Show me how many of them work.
They’re literally all around you. A credit union is a cooperative, the Associated Press (AP) is a cooperative, there are a number of electric companies that are cooperatives which I’ve been a part of. Land 'o Lakes for gods sake is a cooperative! Even Texas has housing and brewery cooperatives! I don’t know why you’re being so combative, If you took 10 seconds to look it up you would know. Either you’ve been grossly misinformed by someone or your perceived notions need educated.
List of cooperatives (not even close to being a complete list)
Energy Cooperatives
Food Cooperatives
Land O’Lakes
This isn’t a new, fanciful, or dreamy thing. It’s a very real system that benefits everyone at the company including CEO’s.
source
If you want to have a real conversation about co-ops I’m here for it. If you’re just going to respond with a snarky comment and nothing to back it up but anecdotal observations then I will not waste anymore time continuing further.
They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.
Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.
Again, what do you mean by “works?” There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you’re asking, or Rojava.
Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?
I am not talking about anything evil or how democracy is bad.
I am talking about communists being delusional.
Yall keep talking and yall keep proving it over and over again.
You don’t understand shit and just keep repeating stuff that didnt even work 70 years ago.
You are. You are directly saying democracy is bad when applied to labor, by saying Socialism and Communism are delusional, as all Socialism is is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production vs Individual ownership a la Capitalism.
You have additionally showcased how you genuinely don’t understand what anyone is talking about, and rather than attempt to engage with them, you just laugh and call everyone else delusional while you use an explicitly Socialist platform made by a Communist as a direct response to the failures of Capitalist Reddit.
Bringing you through the same example again: which is better, the factory owned and run by the Workers, or thr factory owned by a Capitalist and run by the Workers?
I understand that as both a landlord and a laborer, you’re petite bourgeoisie. As such, you are reactionary and thus stand against the progress of the Mode of Production from one of Capitalism to one of Socialism. However, your arguments can be directly copied and pasted to times of Feudalism. “If Capitalism is so great, why aren’t there Capitalists and businesses owned by them everywhere?” while in the midst of France pre-revolution would be just as valid as your arguments now. That is to say, they are entirely devoid of analysis and are a way for you to not have to actually think about your views.
Seriously answer me this, if nothing else: are worker co-operatives delusional?