The purpose of this community is sort of a “work out your frustrations by
letting it all out” where different leftist tendencies can vent their
frustrations with one another and more assertively and directly challenge one
another. Hostility is allowed, but any racist, fascist, or reactionary crap wont
be tolerated, nor will explicit threats.
I have read lots of ML spaces, and listened to ML podcasts and watched ML channels on youtube and twitch.
And never found answers to your questions.
Btw your source about atrocities of communism go 50% higher than even the infamous and long debunked Black Book, but it’s apparently “pretty great summary according to you”. Again your statement above is non withstanding.
Did you know one of the founders of Lemmy have a reading list? It’s slightly outdated and some things might be deleted but here you have:
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Also, this is complete and utter bullshit:
Left-communists and ultra-leftists comprise the conservative and reactionary wing of leftism
Ultras react to the myriad dire problems facing humanity today by forsaking objective material conditions, retreating into idealism, revelling in infantile fantasy, and indulging in retrograde magical thinking, besides solipsistic one-upmanship, collecting leftist nerd-credit online, and smug self-satisfaction. They look down on and hate communists participating in and supporting real life struggles, because we disturb them from the comfort and safety of their narcissistic ivory towers.
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Because you have mendacious critics coming from literal nazis in many cases, there is nothin to address. You also arrived at purely anticommunist point of view that we “like” the mass murder. No, liberal, we don’t, marxist revolutionaries just never allowed it to stop them and cripple the revolution if it was needed. Something that anarchists also did in the two rare cases when they managed to do something resembling revolution and weren’t subordinated to the forces of reaction. What you present looks like the liberal pacifism, and afaik is not espoused by any real historical revolutionary movement.
Wow… that’s how you see us? Really?
Yes, literally, because it’s truth in most cases, definitely the ones like you, demanding explanation for what nazis tell you we did. And not even entire truth because it misses the fact how ultras and anarchists are very often used as the tools for reaction, from the Kronshtadt rebellion through the ongoing COINTELPRO program to recent cases in Syria and Ukraine.
Some exception were the case, like some Maoists here and there or Posadists in Cuba, but the maoist struggle never brought any fruit even despite sometimes decades of tries and Posadists got ultimately dissolved by their inherently unstable ideology.
As you said we most likely won’t make eachother mind.
have mendacious critics coming from literal nazis in many cases
How and when did I quote nazis?
You also arrived at purely anticommunist point of view that we “like” the mass murder. No, liberal, we don’t, marxist revolutionaries just never allowed it to stop them and cripple the revolution if it was needed.
Which is why I said you were “perfectly fine” with mass-murder. I am not fine with mass-murder. Call me a lib all you want, but dude, c’mon. Please engage me in good faith.
Something that anarchists also did
And I’m against that too! What makes you think I would defend them? I feel like you’re expecting me to have the same lack of backbone that you guys seem to have in refusing to allow criticism of your heroes. For all the talk of “struggle sessions” and “self-critique” that MLs do, you’d think there would be more of it when it comes to people pointing out the facts that the authoritarian communist regimes haven’t been perfect or ideal in any sense of the word.
What you present looks like the liberal pacifism
Not at all. I’m just for peaceful resolution to conflict above all else. I don’t know if that’s liberal or not, but sure, call it that if you want. I just want to live in a world that holds peace and equity as its ultimate goal. I have faith in the goodness of humanity. It doesn’t seem like most MLs agree that man is inherently good.
demanding explanation for what nazis tell you we did
If there is actual evidence that refutes the facts, please let them be known, rather than accusing me of being a nazi or just repeating nazi propaganda.
ultras and anarchists are very often used as the tools for reaction… COINTELPRO
This is so ironic, because you fail to see how MLs are being manipulated specifically to divide the left, and the ONLY people who talk about left unity are the “Ultras” and “Anarchists” and “Democratic Socialists” - all of whom you REFUSE to associate with, and treat with disdain and contempt, pushing them away… rather than bringing us in and being kind, caring people who want to share your viewpoints with us in an effort to educate us and bring us into the fold. Tankies have ZERO interest in that.
MLs have ZERO interest in left-unity. You know why? COINTELPRO. You guys are the wreckers of solidarity. I don’t know how you don’t see that by now.
You quoted the reddit list which includes literal nazi propaganda like the holodomor as “good source”
Which is why I said you were “perfectly fine” with mass-murder.
And i said we are not “perfectly fine” with mass murder, but if you had any contact with history and reality sufficient to maybe think a little about what you just lump as “mass murder” you would not be a shitlib you are. You are just a concern troll, saying empty platitudes like “I am not fine with mass-murder” when you are consistently supporting mass murder by continual perpetration of the imperialist system. Because if you oppose people standing against the imperialism, you condone the imperialism. You are an anti-anti-nazi.
I feel like you’re expecting me to have the same lack of backbone that you guys seem to have in refusing to allow criticism of your heroes.
Again you will find plenty of that in marxist spaces, but either you lied about frequenting it or you’re so deep down your liberal programming you never understood it as such because you apparently expect we would adopt the liberal and often literally nazi “critiques”???
Not at all. I’m just for peaceful resolution to conflict above all else. I don’t know if that’s liberal or not, but sure, call it that if you want. I just want to live in a world that holds peace and equity as its ultimate goal. I have faith in the goodness of humanity.
And this is gonna happened HOW??? Ruling class will just relinquish power and privilege? Now i would love that, but it would be first time in history. Your horse is so high you don’t even notice the reality from there. That’s why you lib idealists did never and will never achieve anything except throwing a wrench into the revolution and effectively supporting the ruling class.
It doesn’t seem like most MLs agree that man is inherently good.
I know that you know shit but please don’t embarrass yourself on such basics. Define “good”? Scientific research confirmed that humans are collective creatures and without external influences or liberal programming they will nearly always cooperate rather than compete. Is that good? Or you meant some undefined platitude again?
If there is actual evidence that refutes the facts, please let them be known, rather than accusing me of being a nazi or just repeating nazi propaganda.
I fuking linked you entire huge list of debunks so stop lying.
MLs have ZERO interest in left-unity.
We want unity with the left, not with the fedridden nazi propaganda dispensers. And mighty fucking rich of you to even invoke the COINTELPRO whle literally taking part in it, knowingly or not.
I let myself waste way too much time already to your lousy debatebro troll tactics, now you’re just completely ignore and lie about what i said. Further posts will be ignored.
First of all - if anyone is reading this thread this far into it, I applaud you… But please don’t be like this guy. This community was built specifically for “debatebro’ing”. It was specifically created to foster debate and communication between those of us on the left, to find common ground and influence and educate each other.
With that said…
We want unity with the left, not with the fedridden nazi propaganda dispensers. And mighty fucking rich of you to even invoke the COINTELPRO whle literally taking part in it, knowingly or not.
I let myself waste way too much time already to your lousy debatebro troll tactics, now you’re just completely ignore and lie about what i said. Further posts will be ignored.
Fine. Ragequit if you must. But know this - You, and the rest of the tankies, are the ones who are wrecking unity on the left. And you DO know it. Because if you didn’t want to wreck unity with the left, you wouldn’t ragequit!
And that’s why I accuse YOU GUYS of being the actual COINTELPRO campaign. Not the other way around. And even if you weren’t part of COINTELPRO, then you’ve got your heads so far up your own asses and have been fed so much shit you’ve proven the first law of thermodynamics.
The Feds LOVE that you isolate yourselves by being dickheads and push out anyone who might have a chance of being brought over to your mindset. They love it. You’re doing their work for them.
Have fun jerking each other off, man.
Just for fun, however, here are my replies to your comments in the last post, just so I can clarify the record:
You quoted the reddit list which includes literal nazi propaganda like the holodomor as “good source”
Are you talking about Wikipedia? I never quoted any “reddit list”.
what you just lump as “mass murder” you would not be a shitlib you are. You are just a concern troll, saying empty platitudes like “I am not fine with mass-murder” when you are consistently supporting mass murder by continual perpetration of the imperialist system. Because if you oppose people standing against the imperialism, you condone the imperialism. You are an anti-anti-nazi.
LOL… You’re not “standing against imperialism”. You’re LARPing as a revolutionary online. You’re doing nothing to help the world become a better place. You’re just getting high-fives from your bros for “dunking on libs”.
And yeah, you are perfectly fine with mass-murder. You just try to justify it by saying that it’s “necessary”. I fundamentally disagree.
this is gonna happened HOW??? Ruling class will just relinquish power and privilege? Now i would love that, but it would be first time in history.
No you wouldn’t. You want their heads on pikes!
That’s why you lib idealists did never and will never achieve anything except throwing a wrench into the revolution and effectively supporting the ruling class.
We’ve achieved weekends. We’ve achieved voting rights. We’ve achieved an end to slavery and segregation. We’ve achieved LGBTQ acceptance (for the most part). We’ve made it “ok” to call yourself a Socialist in the USA. That’s a HUGE accomplishment in and of itself. Just because we’re going slower at it because we don’t want genocide/classicide, doesn’t mean that progress isn’t being made.
The revolution will be a revolution of culture. Your violent revolution, even if it begins, will always ultimately fail. Because they always do.
Define “good”? Scientific research confirmed that humans are collective creatures and without external influences… they will nearly always cooperate rather than compete. Is that good? Or you meant some undefined platitude again?
Yes, that is good. So why do you believe that the only way to achieve that cooperation is with mass-murder and oppression of the masses?
I fuking linked you entire huge list of debunks so stop lying.
I’m not lying. What you linked me to was indeed a big list.
What have I asserted that specifically you know can be refuted by a piece in that long list you sent me?
I don’t believe you did this:
And never found answers to your questions.
Btw your source about atrocities of communism go 50% higher than even the infamous and long debunked Black Book, but it’s apparently “pretty great summary according to you”. Again your statement above is non withstanding.
Did you know one of the founders of Lemmy have a reading list? It’s slightly outdated and some things might be deleted but here you have:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md
That’s a great list. Love it. Will go through it.
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Also, this is complete and utter bullshit:
Wow… that’s how you see us? Really?
Because you have mendacious critics coming from literal nazis in many cases, there is nothin to address. You also arrived at purely anticommunist point of view that we “like” the mass murder. No, liberal, we don’t, marxist revolutionaries just never allowed it to stop them and cripple the revolution if it was needed. Something that anarchists also did in the two rare cases when they managed to do something resembling revolution and weren’t subordinated to the forces of reaction. What you present looks like the liberal pacifism, and afaik is not espoused by any real historical revolutionary movement.
Yes, literally, because it’s truth in most cases, definitely the ones like you, demanding explanation for what nazis tell you we did. And not even entire truth because it misses the fact how ultras and anarchists are very often used as the tools for reaction, from the Kronshtadt rebellion through the ongoing COINTELPRO program to recent cases in Syria and Ukraine.
Some exception were the case, like some Maoists here and there or Posadists in Cuba, but the maoist struggle never brought any fruit even despite sometimes decades of tries and Posadists got ultimately dissolved by their inherently unstable ideology.
As you said we most likely won’t make eachother mind.
How and when did I quote nazis?
Which is why I said you were “perfectly fine” with mass-murder. I am not fine with mass-murder. Call me a lib all you want, but dude, c’mon. Please engage me in good faith.
And I’m against that too! What makes you think I would defend them? I feel like you’re expecting me to have the same lack of backbone that you guys seem to have in refusing to allow criticism of your heroes. For all the talk of “struggle sessions” and “self-critique” that MLs do, you’d think there would be more of it when it comes to people pointing out the facts that the authoritarian communist regimes haven’t been perfect or ideal in any sense of the word.
Not at all. I’m just for peaceful resolution to conflict above all else. I don’t know if that’s liberal or not, but sure, call it that if you want. I just want to live in a world that holds peace and equity as its ultimate goal. I have faith in the goodness of humanity. It doesn’t seem like most MLs agree that man is inherently good.
If there is actual evidence that refutes the facts, please let them be known, rather than accusing me of being a nazi or just repeating nazi propaganda.
This is so ironic, because you fail to see how MLs are being manipulated specifically to divide the left, and the ONLY people who talk about left unity are the “Ultras” and “Anarchists” and “Democratic Socialists” - all of whom you REFUSE to associate with, and treat with disdain and contempt, pushing them away… rather than bringing us in and being kind, caring people who want to share your viewpoints with us in an effort to educate us and bring us into the fold. Tankies have ZERO interest in that.
MLs have ZERO interest in left-unity. You know why? COINTELPRO. You guys are the wreckers of solidarity. I don’t know how you don’t see that by now.
You quoted the reddit list which includes literal nazi propaganda like the holodomor as “good source”
And i said we are not “perfectly fine” with mass murder, but if you had any contact with history and reality sufficient to maybe think a little about what you just lump as “mass murder” you would not be a shitlib you are. You are just a concern troll, saying empty platitudes like “I am not fine with mass-murder” when you are consistently supporting mass murder by continual perpetration of the imperialist system. Because if you oppose people standing against the imperialism, you condone the imperialism. You are an anti-anti-nazi.
Again you will find plenty of that in marxist spaces, but either you lied about frequenting it or you’re so deep down your liberal programming you never understood it as such because you apparently expect we would adopt the liberal and often literally nazi “critiques”???
And this is gonna happened HOW??? Ruling class will just relinquish power and privilege? Now i would love that, but it would be first time in history. Your horse is so high you don’t even notice the reality from there. That’s why you lib idealists did never and will never achieve anything except throwing a wrench into the revolution and effectively supporting the ruling class.
I know that you know shit but please don’t embarrass yourself on such basics. Define “good”? Scientific research confirmed that humans are collective creatures and without external influences or liberal programming they will nearly always cooperate rather than compete. Is that good? Or you meant some undefined platitude again?
I fuking linked you entire huge list of debunks so stop lying.
We want unity with the left, not with the fedridden nazi propaganda dispensers. And mighty fucking rich of you to even invoke the COINTELPRO whle literally taking part in it, knowingly or not.
I let myself waste way too much time already to your lousy debatebro troll tactics, now you’re just completely ignore and lie about what i said. Further posts will be ignored.
First of all - if anyone is reading this thread this far into it, I applaud you… But please don’t be like this guy. This community was built specifically for “debatebro’ing”. It was specifically created to foster debate and communication between those of us on the left, to find common ground and influence and educate each other.
With that said…
Fine. Ragequit if you must. But know this - You, and the rest of the tankies, are the ones who are wrecking unity on the left. And you DO know it. Because if you didn’t want to wreck unity with the left, you wouldn’t ragequit!
And that’s why I accuse YOU GUYS of being the actual COINTELPRO campaign. Not the other way around. And even if you weren’t part of COINTELPRO, then you’ve got your heads so far up your own asses and have been fed so much shit you’ve proven the first law of thermodynamics.
The Feds LOVE that you isolate yourselves by being dickheads and push out anyone who might have a chance of being brought over to your mindset. They love it. You’re doing their work for them.
Have fun jerking each other off, man.
Just for fun, however, here are my replies to your comments in the last post, just so I can clarify the record:
Are you talking about Wikipedia? I never quoted any “reddit list”.
LOL… You’re not “standing against imperialism”. You’re LARPing as a revolutionary online. You’re doing nothing to help the world become a better place. You’re just getting high-fives from your bros for “dunking on libs”.
And yeah, you are perfectly fine with mass-murder. You just try to justify it by saying that it’s “necessary”. I fundamentally disagree.
No you wouldn’t. You want their heads on pikes!
We’ve achieved weekends. We’ve achieved voting rights. We’ve achieved an end to slavery and segregation. We’ve achieved LGBTQ acceptance (for the most part). We’ve made it “ok” to call yourself a Socialist in the USA. That’s a HUGE accomplishment in and of itself. Just because we’re going slower at it because we don’t want genocide/classicide, doesn’t mean that progress isn’t being made.
The revolution will be a revolution of culture. Your violent revolution, even if it begins, will always ultimately fail. Because they always do.
Yes, that is good. So why do you believe that the only way to achieve that cooperation is with mass-murder and oppression of the masses?
I’m not lying. What you linked me to was indeed a big list.
What have I asserted that specifically you know can be refuted by a piece in that long list you sent me?