Die exportorientierte deutsche Wirtschaft leidet besonders unter den hohen Energiepreisen. Industrievertreter fürchten, dass zahlreiche Unternehmen abwandern. Die Politik müsse gegensteuern – sonst bewege sich Deutschland „ungebremst auf einen gefährlichen Wendepunkt zu“.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
Ideas have to be adapted to their current circumstances instead of applied dogmatically. I understand why this concept is hard for an anarchist to understand though. Crisis of overproduction fundamentally means that companies are producing more commodities than the market can absorb. This is clearly starting to be the case for European companies.
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
Nowhere am I changing the subject, which is that high energy prices are causing deindustrialization of Europe and that’s feeding into the economic crisis that Europe is experiencing. The fact that energy prices have jumped by an order of magnitude is not a minor factor, and I know that even you can’t be ignorant enough to think that.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
You haven’t actually made any argument here. You just said that there are other factors in play, which nobody debates. What’s laughably untrue is you claiming that European industry isn’t shutting down in face of energy costs. Critical things like steel mills and phenomenal 70% of fertilizer production has halted as a result. You’re either blatantly lying or have no clue how European economy works. It’s often hard to tell which it is when talking to you.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues than a Canadian apparently getting their main source of European news from right-wing tabloids.
Prices spiking for fertilizers etc. were mainly a result of speculative bubbles (most notably in the UK, which relies on their own natural gas sources in Scottland and does AFAIK not import any gas from Russia) and continental Europe has long had a crisis of agricultural over-production with cheap fertilizers destroying the environment. (And on a side note: the current agricultural issues are not due to lack of fertilizer, but rather extreme climate change induced drough in large parts of Europe).
And old European steel mills (mostly running on coal btw.) had long issues with competition from cheaper / energy subsidizing producers like China, this is nothing new and the rising energy prices just accelerate a long overdue market adjustment. With falling population and demand for products containing steel (like large cars) this is also not really an issue as the little steel that is still needed can be easily imported.
There are some sectors like the chemical industry that do have a high dependency on natural gas, but they are not such a significant part of the EU economy and will in the medium term benefit from an accelerated transition to bio-technological processes over 19th century energy intensive ones that were artificially kept alive due to cheap energy imports.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues
You wouldnt stand for this bullshit logic if the subject were Canada. If that’s the length you want to go to prove energy doesn’t matter for industry then maybe such sophistry is all you have.
Straw-man argument. I never claimed “energy doesn’t matter for industry”.
And contrary to some other people here I don’t claim to know everything about Canadian industrial problems and also don’t constantly post tabloid articles about it. I would actually be interested in non-tabloid articles being posted about Canadian issues as I know very little about that.
You said it plays a minor role which is bullshit. Tell me how can the Euro economy/industry can make adjustments if it lacks cheap energy that is available elsewhere?
I said compared to the other current global economic issues the lack of cheap energy supplies for a very selected part (comprising mostly of outmoded industry) of companies in central Europe is relatively minor. And that is undeniably true, look at any economic indicator and you will see that the EU as a whole is not doing uniquely bad right now.
This is why I laugh when you assert being European as a point because Europeans make great American dogs. Not doing uniquely bad? What kind of neoliberal nightmarish bullshit is this? How much kool-aid can you stomach? As if Europe is better off without the cheaper energy that makes it more competitive with the US.
That is a deeply ignorant statement. Energy is required for literally every aspect of modern life. It’s needed for transportation, heating, manufacturing, agriculture, and every other aspect of a modern economy. Being cut off from cheap energy creates a situation where costs of doing any of those things become prohibitive.
It’s also hilarious that you think things like manufacturing are outdated. I guess people don’t need houses to live in anymore or things like rail infrastructure to get around.
I guess going back to medieval times is the anarchist dream. Wonder how many people in Europe share it.
Yet somehow all these things are still being done in Europe right now, with ships full of energy sitting just outside of the harbours because gas storage is full and the price is too low to sell it profitably.
Most of these things don’t need “lots of cheap” energy anyways, they do perfectly fine with regularly priced energy which is sufficiently available for those things that are really needed and not just driving excessive profits for a few major capitalists.
But true enough, without lots of cheap energy, suppressing labour costs and manipulating your currency downwards, you can’t massively out-compete everyone else, which is what Germany is famous for and which only one country has recently surpassed them in, namely China.
You do realize how ridiculous your entire argument sounds coming from someone claiming to be a communist?
Gotcha, there is no energy crisis in Europe and magical solutions will provide all the energy that’s needed going forward. Thanks for educating me on this complex subject.
That is not what Marxists mean with “crisis of over-production”. Did you ever read Marxist economic theory?
And you are also trying to change the subject now (as usual when you are losing an argument). Yes there is a global economic down-turn and Europe is also effected by that, as are many other regions. Various factors play a role in that, the global pandemic (and counter-measures especially in China), tightening of monetary over-supply & and inflationary pressures, economic sanctions against China and Russia, etc… lack of Russian gas supplies to central Europe also play a role in that, but a relatively minor one.
But I am repeating my argument here, which you just refuse to address while continuing with right-wing fear-mongering of rising energy prices spelling the doom of all European industry, which is laughably untrue and just done to fish for votes of people in denial of the larger economic issues at play.
Ideas have to be adapted to their current circumstances instead of applied dogmatically. I understand why this concept is hard for an anarchist to understand though. Crisis of overproduction fundamentally means that companies are producing more commodities than the market can absorb. This is clearly starting to be the case for European companies.
Nowhere am I changing the subject, which is that high energy prices are causing deindustrialization of Europe and that’s feeding into the economic crisis that Europe is experiencing. The fact that energy prices have jumped by an order of magnitude is not a minor factor, and I know that even you can’t be ignorant enough to think that.
You haven’t actually made any argument here. You just said that there are other factors in play, which nobody debates. What’s laughably untrue is you claiming that European industry isn’t shutting down in face of energy costs. Critical things like steel mills and phenomenal 70% of fertilizer production has halted as a result. You’re either blatantly lying or have no clue how European economy works. It’s often hard to tell which it is when talking to you.
As a European living in Europe I probably have a slightly better understanding of European politics and economic issues than a Canadian apparently getting their main source of European news from right-wing tabloids.
Prices spiking for fertilizers etc. were mainly a result of speculative bubbles (most notably in the UK, which relies on their own natural gas sources in Scottland and does AFAIK not import any gas from Russia) and continental Europe has long had a crisis of agricultural over-production with cheap fertilizers destroying the environment. (And on a side note: the current agricultural issues are not due to lack of fertilizer, but rather extreme climate change induced drough in large parts of Europe).
And old European steel mills (mostly running on coal btw.) had long issues with competition from cheaper / energy subsidizing producers like China, this is nothing new and the rising energy prices just accelerate a long overdue market adjustment. With falling population and demand for products containing steel (like large cars) this is also not really an issue as the little steel that is still needed can be easily imported.
There are some sectors like the chemical industry that do have a high dependency on natural gas, but they are not such a significant part of the EU economy and will in the medium term benefit from an accelerated transition to bio-technological processes over 19th century energy intensive ones that were artificially kept alive due to cheap energy imports.
You wouldnt stand for this bullshit logic if the subject were Canada. If that’s the length you want to go to prove energy doesn’t matter for industry then maybe such sophistry is all you have.
Straw-man argument. I never claimed “energy doesn’t matter for industry”.
And contrary to some other people here I don’t claim to know everything about Canadian industrial problems and also don’t constantly post tabloid articles about it. I would actually be interested in non-tabloid articles being posted about Canadian issues as I know very little about that.
You said it plays a minor role which is bullshit. Tell me how can the Euro economy/industry can make adjustments if it lacks cheap energy that is available elsewhere?
I said compared to the other current global economic issues the lack of cheap energy supplies for a very selected part (comprising mostly of outmoded industry) of companies in central Europe is relatively minor. And that is undeniably true, look at any economic indicator and you will see that the EU as a whole is not doing uniquely bad right now.
This is why I laugh when you assert being European as a point because Europeans make great American dogs. Not doing uniquely bad? What kind of neoliberal nightmarish bullshit is this? How much kool-aid can you stomach? As if Europe is better off without the cheaper energy that makes it more competitive with the US.
That is a deeply ignorant statement. Energy is required for literally every aspect of modern life. It’s needed for transportation, heating, manufacturing, agriculture, and every other aspect of a modern economy. Being cut off from cheap energy creates a situation where costs of doing any of those things become prohibitive.
It’s also hilarious that you think things like manufacturing are outdated. I guess people don’t need houses to live in anymore or things like rail infrastructure to get around.
I guess going back to medieval times is the anarchist dream. Wonder how many people in Europe share it.
Yet somehow all these things are still being done in Europe right now, with ships full of energy sitting just outside of the harbours because gas storage is full and the price is too low to sell it profitably.
Most of these things don’t need “lots of cheap” energy anyways, they do perfectly fine with regularly priced energy which is sufficiently available for those things that are really needed and not just driving excessive profits for a few major capitalists.
But true enough, without lots of cheap energy, suppressing labour costs and manipulating your currency downwards, you can’t massively out-compete everyone else, which is what Germany is famous for and which only one country has recently surpassed them in, namely China.
You do realize how ridiculous your entire argument sounds coming from someone claiming to be a communist?
Gotcha, there is no energy crisis in Europe and magical solutions will provide all the energy that’s needed going forward. Thanks for educating me on this complex subject.