Understandable actually. Server maintenance costs money and if a 3rd party chat app; which significantly has more usage than other forms of social media; is trying to connect to the server, they have to handle that traffic too. Remember, it is not just about data size, but also the sheer volume of connection to handle.
I think the solution is just P2P with each peer acting as a relay to the other too. The protocol needs to be designed in such a way that no-one in the middle can reply to send false acknowledgement so as to prevent sybil attack or other attack where a malicious actor is a part of the network.
Right, the rating list is generic, whereas it should be categorized. For example while iMessage is a walled garden, if the list was sorted by ease of use, it should be first, as it’s nearly zero-configuration for the end user and they get encrypted messaging. Matrix would be first on open access (if we weren’t counting SMS), because it’s available on so many platforms and clients. Signal probably wins on security, though I don’t know enough about it to verify that. So on and so forth
And RCS is only supported on Androids with Google or Samsung’s messaging apps, so therefore requires you to buy an android. However since iMessage is cross platform through Apple’s ecosystem, I would still rate it higher than RCS for ease of use. And I would certainly rate it higher than matrix or signal, as they require you to install additional software than what comes with a device.
This is an often repeated piece of misinformation. The developer of gurk-rs, a third party Signal client, has even said this himself. The client presents itself with a completely identifiable name to the Signal servers - the Signal devs can see this and could easily block this client from connecting but they don’t. This project has existed for at least 3+ years now.
There’s a few clients for Signal, nobody is preventing developers from creating apps; there’s Molly, gurk-rs, Axolotl, Flare, signal-cli, Pidgin (with the Signal plugin.
The problem is 3rd party clients don’t implement all features because it takes a lot of work and they’re created/developed by volunteers - just take a look at Matrix and how many clients support all features or even just group end-to-end encryption (E2EE). Last I checked many third party Matrix clients didn’t support encrypted group messages, primarily just Element, the reference client built by the matrix developers. So you have the same problem on Signal that you have on Matrix.
In Matrix a direct chat is a group chat with two people.
You’re right, I forgot how Matrix handled messages and the current state is that there’s are at least 6 other clients that support E2EE - this is awesome.
That said, as soon as you look for a stable client that supports other features like Native 1:1 calls and Threads the only client listed is Element, check here: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/
Side note: Looks like ~3 years ago a Fluffychat dev stated they would not implement E2EE in the app [0], this must have been around the time I was looking at other clients because I recall this one “looking” the best and might be viable for non-techy people to use/recommend. I’m glad they changed their mind and implemented E2EE. Time to take a look at it again.
Do any of these also support SMS? I’ll switch back if I can have my encrypted message comingle with my SMS messages. Signal dropping SMS was the primary reason I left.
Meanwhile I can’t even get my boomer mom to switch to Google Messages from Samsung Messages because she’d “have to relearn how to use it.” Then she just continues to complain that she can’t send messages over WiFi, and that when she sends or receives pictures over SMS they get compressed… 💢
I had several friends and family switched over, until they killed SMS support like idiots. I now know maybe one or two people using it, and barely use it anymore.
Oh yeah sorry, I’m really stupid early in the morning. I read something else in this thread about Google Messages and just assumed it was related. I didn’t even know Signal had SMS support, that honestly sounds like a good feature
Nah, the comment was referencing signal from two layers up in the conversation, when Google messages was only one layer up.
For me, the whole reason I switched to Signal was because it would do both encrypted and SMS. Then they repeatedly made terrible decision after terrible decision and when they dropped SMS I had zero reason to keep using it. I don’t like that Google messages is run by Google, but at least I don’t have yet another messaging app to deal with.
Telegram doesn’t default to encryption. All your messages are stored and can be viewed by anyone with enough privileges on Telegram’s infrastructure.
Telegram’s “secure” 1-1 messages are limited to the point of being useless and not worth using. It’s a dark design pattern created to discourage their use, ensuring you give them all your data.
Signal > Matrix/Element > RCS > SMS.
iMessage isn’t in the equation because it only works on a single platform.
signal protocol is basically the opposite, open source but the company is hostile to 3rd party client development
They can’t prevent 3rd party apps, so what’s the issue?
From what I understand, they don’t want 3rd party apps to use their servers.
Understandable actually. Server maintenance costs money and if a 3rd party chat app; which significantly has more usage than other forms of social media; is trying to connect to the server, they have to handle that traffic too. Remember, it is not just about data size, but also the sheer volume of connection to handle.
I think the solution is just P2P with each peer acting as a relay to the other too. The protocol needs to be designed in such a way that no-one in the middle can reply to send false acknowledgement so as to prevent sybil attack or other attack where a malicious actor is a part of the network.
My point is basically that matrix/element is arguable the much more ethical chat solution because of its openess still with a focus on security.
Right, the rating list is generic, whereas it should be categorized. For example while iMessage is a walled garden, if the list was sorted by ease of use, it should be first, as it’s nearly zero-configuration for the end user and they get encrypted messaging. Matrix would be first on open access (if we weren’t counting SMS), because it’s available on so many platforms and clients. Signal probably wins on security, though I don’t know enough about it to verify that. So on and so forth
Should it, though? It requires the user to buy an Apple device.
And RCS is only supported on Androids with Google or Samsung’s messaging apps, so therefore requires you to buy an android. However since iMessage is cross platform through Apple’s ecosystem, I would still rate it higher than RCS for ease of use. And I would certainly rate it higher than matrix or signal, as they require you to install additional software than what comes with a device.
This is an often repeated piece of misinformation. The developer of gurk-rs, a third party Signal client, has even said this himself. The client presents itself with a completely identifiable name to the Signal servers - the Signal devs can see this and could easily block this client from connecting but they don’t. This project has existed for at least 3+ years now.
There’s a few clients for Signal, nobody is preventing developers from creating apps; there’s Molly, gurk-rs, Axolotl, Flare, signal-cli, Pidgin (with the Signal plugin.
The problem is 3rd party clients don’t implement all features because it takes a lot of work and they’re created/developed by volunteers - just take a look at Matrix and how many clients support all features or even just group end-to-end encryption (E2EE). Last I checked many third party Matrix clients didn’t support encrypted group messages, primarily just Element, the reference client built by the matrix developers. So you have the same problem on Signal that you have on Matrix.
In Matrix a direct chat is a group chat with two people.
Also I’ve used several clients and they all supported encryption.
You’re right, I forgot how Matrix handled messages and the current state is that there’s are at least 6 other clients that support E2EE - this is awesome.
That said, as soon as you look for a stable client that supports other features like Native 1:1 calls and Threads the only client listed is Element, check here: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/
Side note: Looks like ~3 years ago a Fluffychat dev stated they would not implement E2EE in the app [0], this must have been around the time I was looking at other clients because I recall this one “looking” the best and might be viable for non-techy people to use/recommend. I’m glad they changed their mind and implemented E2EE. Time to take a look at it again.
[0] https://gitlab.com/KrilleFear/fluffychat/-/issues/25#note_423061121
There isn’t a call feature completely specified as far as I can find. Therefor it isn’t really possible to have cross client native calls.
It was introduced two years ago: https://element.io/blog/introducing-native-matrix-voip-with-element-call/
Looks like at least two other clients support 1:1 calls.
Do any of these also support SMS? I’ll switch back if I can have my encrypted message comingle with my SMS messages. Signal dropping SMS was the primary reason I left.
Now to convince Grandma to use Signal
We successfully managed. Good times over here.
Meanwhile I can’t even get my boomer mom to switch to Google Messages from Samsung Messages because she’d “have to relearn how to use it.” Then she just continues to complain that she can’t send messages over WiFi, and that when she sends or receives pictures over SMS they get compressed… 💢
Doesn’t Samsung messages support RCS? I know it did at one point. You just had to go into the settings and enable the option.
I had several friends and family switched over, until they killed SMS support like idiots. I now know maybe one or two people using it, and barely use it anymore.
They killed SMS support? Maybe not in Germany as an exception, I still use Google messages to recive spam SMS.
Signal killed sms
Oh yeah sorry, I’m really stupid early in the morning. I read something else in this thread about Google Messages and just assumed it was related. I didn’t even know Signal had SMS support, that honestly sounds like a good feature
Nah, the comment was referencing signal from two layers up in the conversation, when Google messages was only one layer up.
For me, the whole reason I switched to Signal was because it would do both encrypted and SMS. Then they repeatedly made terrible decision after terrible decision and when they dropped SMS I had zero reason to keep using it. I don’t like that Google messages is run by Google, but at least I don’t have yet another messaging app to deal with.
Matrix/element > signal > xmpp > telegram > RCS > SMS
I could settle for this but remove telegram as it’s not even E2EE by default. It’s basically facebook v2.
Guess what? Neither is matrix/element.
Private messages on Matrix have been end-to-end encryption (E2EE) by default since 2020 - https://matrix.org/blog/2020/05/06/cross-signing-and-end-to-end-encryption-by-default-is-here/
For anyone considering Telegram for privacy:
TL;DR - Matrix is more private than Telegram.
What about XMPP?
Where’s the XMPP commenters… The floodgates will open
What is Signal and how do I use it
This is a good start to understand what it is and how to use it: https://mashable.com/article/what-is-signal-app