Can’t deprogram people if people who need deprogramming never show up. Those same listeners who think China is “authoritarian state capitalist” are going to find themselves reading comments like the one in the above-linked thread and interacting with people from communities like ours, and they’ll be receptive to those people because they’ll see them as fellow members of the Deprogram Community and not as Tankies. If and when they discover that they’re sharing community with MLs, they will have some personal contradictions to resolve about the values overlap.
There is some logic to what you say, but the problem is that the entire Deprogram trio already get labeled as “tankies”, even with the non-committal position they take on some of these issues. The fact that they speak positively of the former USSR, the fact that they frequently, if not as often or as forcefully as i would like, praise certain parts of what China is doing and speak out against anti-China narratives, the fact that they criticize NATO and the US first and foremost, this is enough for the liberals who are pretending to be leftists to call them “apologists for authoritarian regimes”. So then why not go all the way?
I think we have here another one of those disagreements about tactics where it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight. It may very well be that their calculation that they will attract more people this way and ultimately turn them into principled communists turns out to be right. It may be that i am just too impatient and they are thinking more strategically and more long-term than me. I am willing to be proved wrong on this. But to me it just seems too opportunistic at this time to still keep up this veneer of neutrality given the degree to which the confrontation between the imperialist camp and the anti-hegemonic coalition (Russia, China, Iran) has escalated.
…it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight.
Yup.
Insert something here about Overton windows and not being so far from the frame that you can’t affect how it moves. I’m sure you’ve heard it before. No need to repeat it. 🫠
It is evident that he is very conscious of what he is doing and why, clearly his views are nowhere near as ambiguous as some of his or the Deprogram’s content would superficially suggest, and he explains that he purposely takes a more subtle approach in order to be able to break step-by-step through the anti-communist indoctrination that so many people have.
And it is also clear that their content, even the more “advanced” stuff that goes beyong the socialism 101 videos that JT himself does on his main channel, is not really trying to “preach to the choir” as it were, i.e. it’s not just for those of us who are already firmly in the Marxist-Leninist camp but tries to reach a broader audience. I just think that even if there still needs to be some hand-holding when it comes to getting people not to be afraid of communism, as far as the topic of Russia and China goes the conflict that is brewing in the world today is too important, its implications and potential dangers too great to continue fencesitting.
An anti-war movement urgently needs to be built up in the West, and you cannot credibly oppose war, sanctions, etc. so long as you still allow people to go on believing that Ukraine is “just defending itself”, or that China is somehow mistreating its people. That opens the door to justifications for war no matter how much you insist that you are against war.
Can’t deprogram people if people who need deprogramming never show up. Those same listeners who think China is “authoritarian state capitalist” are going to find themselves reading comments like the one in the above-linked thread and interacting with people from communities like ours, and they’ll be receptive to those people because they’ll see them as fellow members of the Deprogram Community and not as Tankies. If and when they discover that they’re sharing community with MLs, they will have some personal contradictions to resolve about the values overlap.
There is some logic to what you say, but the problem is that the entire Deprogram trio already get labeled as “tankies”, even with the non-committal position they take on some of these issues. The fact that they speak positively of the former USSR, the fact that they frequently, if not as often or as forcefully as i would like, praise certain parts of what China is doing and speak out against anti-China narratives, the fact that they criticize NATO and the US first and foremost, this is enough for the liberals who are pretending to be leftists to call them “apologists for authoritarian regimes”. So then why not go all the way?
I think we have here another one of those disagreements about tactics where it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight. It may very well be that their calculation that they will attract more people this way and ultimately turn them into principled communists turns out to be right. It may be that i am just too impatient and they are thinking more strategically and more long-term than me. I am willing to be proved wrong on this. But to me it just seems too opportunistic at this time to still keep up this veneer of neutrality given the degree to which the confrontation between the imperialist camp and the anti-hegemonic coalition (Russia, China, Iran) has escalated.
Yup.
Insert something here about Overton windows and not being so far from the frame that you can’t affect how it moves. I’m sure you’ve heard it before. No need to repeat it. 🫠
By the way, this interview with JT showcases how he actually thinks about these things: https://www.youtube.com/live/GwgR4Q-rBpc
It is evident that he is very conscious of what he is doing and why, clearly his views are nowhere near as ambiguous as some of his or the Deprogram’s content would superficially suggest, and he explains that he purposely takes a more subtle approach in order to be able to break step-by-step through the anti-communist indoctrination that so many people have.
And it is also clear that their content, even the more “advanced” stuff that goes beyong the socialism 101 videos that JT himself does on his main channel, is not really trying to “preach to the choir” as it were, i.e. it’s not just for those of us who are already firmly in the Marxist-Leninist camp but tries to reach a broader audience. I just think that even if there still needs to be some hand-holding when it comes to getting people not to be afraid of communism, as far as the topic of Russia and China goes the conflict that is brewing in the world today is too important, its implications and potential dangers too great to continue fencesitting.
An anti-war movement urgently needs to be built up in the West, and you cannot credibly oppose war, sanctions, etc. so long as you still allow people to go on believing that Ukraine is “just defending itself”, or that China is somehow mistreating its people. That opens the door to justifications for war no matter how much you insist that you are against war.
👏 👏 👏