A bit of nuance the headline misses:
a striking correlation between users’ engagement in partisan subreddits and the overall toxicity in their comments
You can be politically engaged without treating politics as a knock-about blood-sport.
It’s also important to look at those positions.
Like, abortion.
To some people, aborting a 3 week old fetus is murder. Because their religion goes even further and says a guy jacking off is mass murder because that “seed” should only be used for heterosexual sex that would result in a child. Which makes them incredibly hypocritical, but they’re used to that
To others it’s just a clump of cells with zero brain activity growing in a women’s body and she decides if she wants to let it grow.
Both sides see the other as evil and obviously wrong.
Which is why it’s been a “wedge issue” for decades. Both parties can cater to corporations and the wealthy, and disagree on stuff like this that makes it so a large segment of the population never agrees with the other on who to vote for, and both parties can agree on stuff like how little taxes the wealthy have to pay while still presenting themselves as opposites.
It is, however, very important to note that when one side starts treating politics like it IS blood sport (I.e. populism), it’s genuinely difficult to push things in a positive direction by taking the “high road”.
More specifically, the paradox of tolerance is very much a factor here. Regressive and reactionary groups absolutely abuse the system as it exists today with the intent of fully corrupting and controlling it in the future.
Understand what bad-faith arguments look like, and the ways that they are often presented as “reasonable discourse”. When you see someone engaging in such disingenuous tactics online, consider dropping some bait to see whether or not they show more of their bad-faith hand; if they do, go (rhetorical) weapons free.
Yep, I completely believe it.
I’m fairly political myself, and it takes pretty hefty amounts of effort to remind myself to let things go and try to just keep a respectable level of discourse. And I still fuck it up all the time.
A lot of it is mechanical. I have far fewer tools here than I do with irl political activism, I can’t use facial expression or tone or anything. So it almost feels like negative sarcasm replaces all that or something, I don’t really know, I’ll have to think about it awhile.
It’s also fucked. Like, what are we supposed to do? This is the only form of protest that some of us have. I don’t have the ability to get out and protest. I don’t have the ability to be an activist, I have a family that I need to take care of.
I know that change comes from political discourse, and we’ve VERY CLEARLY seen that has worked towards the Republicans benefit (reg. redpilling, QAnon, etc.). It’s the only way I know that I can fight back against that insanity.
Cultural change is slow, but it ultimately wins the war, and the best thing that I can do is be on the right slide of it. I understand that you win over more people by being nice, but my comments arent to “win” over the person I’m talking to…they are the “example”, and my argument is primarily for the hundreds of people that will ultimately read the post.
the religulous have a pretty sweet deal for themselves at this point. They don’t have to pay attention to anything except their favorite liars because anything else makes them uncomfortable, and if you try to talk to them legitimately, they go all special snowflake the second you let slip a profane word representing how strongly you feel and just totally stop listening. It’s worse than talking to children, at least children are trying to understand you some of the time. These people start from a place of dishonesty and never leave it.
The “True Believers” simply discard rationality. Logic no longer matters. They know with full conviction and absolutely zero doubt that they are right, regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary. There is unfortunately very little negotiation one can do with that mentality once a person in the grasp of it decides you’re an “agent of evil” - and that’s a comically easy line to cross.
Source: I’ve got a Christian Fundamentalist uncle, which is always… shall we say, interesting at family gatherings, especially considering that I was raised broadly similarly to him but am now staunchly atheist and he knows it.
Makes more sense if you reverse it: Toxic Redditors tend to be politically engaged. It’s not the politics that makes them toxic it’s because they are toxic that they engage with politics so much. Most people who are informed with politics don’t necessarily engage. Of course there are people who do who aren’t toxic but the loudest voices usually are abrasive people.
friend, sometimes shit needs abrading. you ever get anything done without changing anything?
You make a good point. I guess abrasive is different from toxic
Exactly. It’s like a sport to them, though they take it even more seriously than sportsfan, replying to everything with a sense of urgency, like it’s just one step away from total anarchy.
I’ve been surprised by the political discussions here. Far more civil and not as vitriolic as Reddit’s political subs. Even with disagreements.
Politics unlike sports has very real and serious implications for people’s lives.
we’re only talking about people’s actual lives. it’s not like we should feel anything. wears beige, pops xanax
Yes yes and the upcoming american election will be the most important one of the generation. As it has been said last election and the one before that and the one before that and so on an so forth.
What universe are you in? Lemmy is far more caustic when it comes to politics. Is a bit embarrassing to tell the truth.
Go through my post history. I’ve had nothng but relaxed convos. No vitriol or outright hate. Then again, I’m on Kbin so maybe that kind of stuff doesnt reach here. I know of Hexbear’s insanity but ive only seen them a handful of times.
Was a part about a cop being ambushed and murdered few weeks back. There was quite a few posts and every single one of them were gleeful. I was happy to get down voted.
Or look at the response to anyone that might be republican. Unless you have the same opinion and echo back that, it is pretty caustic. Personally I like to hear from people with different opinion as it keeps your brain flexible but you will see little if that here.
Idk. Guess its just experience here. I’ve posted rather controversial opinions about third parties in the States, never once been accused of being republican or whatever gambit. Even with that cop thing I saw lots of hexbear posts saying that kind of stuff but that’s normal for hexbear users.
It’s legit probably the instance. Maybe you’re posting on politics on bhalaj zone and im posting on politics on lemmy.ca. I just browse whatevers on the front page of Kbin which is a mishmash of stuff.
At least its better than Reddit which is just all astroturf and /r/politics who are either bots or so blind theyre not worth engaging with at all.
The more you know about this shitty world, the angrier you get and the bubblegum people just find that intolerable. Reddit and social media are basically just Barbie fantasyland at this point. Reality is not actually discussed, it’s all just people’s feels, like that fucking matters.
I usually complain about the usage of the word “toxic” but at least here it’s well-defined by the article. Still unnecessary though.
Their finding is interesting though - that “online political discourse tends to be uncivil because the people who opt into such discourse are generally uncivil”.
And that begs the question why. My hypothesis is that it has to do with stupidity: political discussion offers a safe space for the stupid*, and uncivil interactions usually have at least one side being stupid. Doubly true in Reddit because stupidity there is seen like a badge of honour.
*NOTE: when I say “the stupid” I am not talking about a well-defined group of people. I’m talking about a set of behaviours (assumptiveness, context illiteracy, a tendency to oversimplify things, wishful thinking, lack of logical “parsing” etc.). Everyone is “the stupid” once in a while, but some way more often than others.
I first read “politically enraged”. Apparently I wasn’t too far off.
Politically-engaged anyone anywhere tends to be toxic.
I avoid people with strong political convictions like the plague.
I’m fine with folks with strong political convictions. The thing that gets me is the viewing of literally everything through the lens of reductive party politics combined with the belief that anyone who disagrees is an idiot or a monster.
As a Trans woman, unfortunately my very identity is a political issue nowadays and I can’t not be politically active.
I’m also a trans woman, FWIW. Lord knows I have feelings on all sorts of political topics. I’m not a fan of my existence being a political football. But, I don’t interject my political beliefs apropos of nothing or use them as a substitute for having a personality. (Which, to be abundantly clear, I am not accusing you or anyone else of). I’m not suggesting that folks shouldn’t be passionate- quite the opposite. It’s just that it’s unhealthy/incredibly grating and sad when I interact with people who have nothing in their life besides party politics. I think it makes our lives less rich, divides us from our fellow humans, and creates stress around things the average person has absolutely no control over.
Yes, the world is fraught and our politics is fucking broken. I choose, however, to be active where I believe I can have an impact and otherwise try to embrace joy/enable and share in the joy of others. To allow oneself to be consumed by all the demagoguery is an act of submission; joy, including queer joy, is an act of defiance.
Perhaps the world is going to shit, perhaps it isn’t. I have no control over it though and I refuse to make myself miserable and let fear consume my life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The problem with people who have strong convictions is that they often have a simplistic, polarized view of everything that allow neither subtlety, nuance nor meaningful discussion.
Usually it’s pointless and frustrating to talk to such people because you know they’re not trying to share ideas, nor are they open to questioning their own beliefs, but rather they’re just telling you how things are and never listen to you.
Exactly like religious people in fact - which I avoid like the plague also, for the same reason.
And it’s the same here! Yay!
And it’s the same here! Yay!
Your typical Lemming partisan will be ruder than your typical Lemming, but still considerably more polite than your typical Redditor.
Another reason why Reddit sucks: research like this is possible due to the Pushshift dataset. Now that Reddit is hostile towards data collection, it will be that much harder to study online discourse.
Noooooooo! I have never, ever, even once seen someone that thinks politics is the most important thing shoehorn it into everything and anything, then get pissy about being told you go the fuck away if they can’t stay on topic
Hmm. Yes. The floor here is made out of floor.
Toxic enough to buy toxic things, commit toxic acts, etc. Toxicity makes my wallet deeper.
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I enjoy trolling reddit political groups, Which in most part is just saying the opposite view. I get down voted into nothingness but the laughs I get making people big mad are worth it
Except PCM
PCM is the worst. It’s actually full of Nazi apologia
From what I remember it’s people arguing for incredibly evil shit, but being careful to do it “politely” as a troll move.
Like:
All I said was LGTB people shouldn’t be allowed to exist, I have no idea why you’re so upset good sir
It’s just a slightly more advanced form of small children saying words that sound like curse words and then claiming they don’t understand why they’re in trouble.
The disappointing but is lots of people from that sub are grown adults and still think that shits funny.
As far as I saw it’s the only political subreddit that allowes actual freedom of speech and respects all opinions/makes fun of them
Allowing “actual freedom of speech” and respecting “all opinions” requires allowing Nazi propaganda and calls for literal genocide, and respecting “all opinions” means respecting Nazi opinions.
Call me a bigot, but those are some intolerant opinions that I will not tolerate. And when normal people refuse to tolerate that nonsense those people migrate to places without moderation…so they can spout bigoted nonsense under the guide of freedom of speech.
But freedom of speech is allowing all opinions, even when you don’t agree with them. And PCM rules include “Do not promote hate based on identity or vulnerability. This includes the use of slurs, echos, and/or Ouija style letter/word chaining. “Just a joke” is not, never has been, nor ever will it be, an excuse for breaking this rule.” and “Advocating, inciting, or participating in brigading is not allowed.”
No. Absolutely not. Freedom of speech does not equate to tolerating intolerant speech.
If you don’t allow explicitly harmful or intolerant content like slurs or calls to genocide, who decides what is “intolerant”? If you allow only some opinions but restrict others you turn a community into an echo chamber that pretends to have free speech, which is worse than having no free speech at all.
I think an echo chamber where everyone agrees that slurs and calls to genocide are bad is an echo chamber I’m fine with. We can argue the other stuff, but some things seem pretty cut and dry to me.
So…
You said it was a bastion of free speech and not an echo chamber because you can say that stuff…
Then you said they dont let you say that stuff…
And now you’re saying you can say that stuff there again…
I didn’t expect a lot of logic, but you’re literally switching between two opposites in every single comment in this thread
But freedom of speech is allowing all opinions, even when you don’t agree with them.
It isn’t, and it never has been. The First Amendment does not protect hate speech or harmful speech.
This sort of friendly, polite, “devil’s advocate” (emphasis on the quotes) support for Nazi speech is exactly what someone above was saying about why PCM is/was extremely toxic.
They disallow slurs but they are for freedom of speech… Is that a contradiction?
No, silly. Freedom of speech is allowing ignorant opinions to be corrected. The idea is that if you let everyone air their dirty laundry in a civilized conversation, eventually truth will prevail. If you make all the rednecks only talk to each other who knows what the fuck out of tune shit they’ll start thinking. We’re just monkeys, man. Only a fucking removed thinks their opinions represent the whole truth. There’s a lot of fucking removed out there though. The point is, in free speech, if you say something dumb enough, you get shut down, mocked, and maybe punched in the face until you stop saying it.
Quit acting like all opinions are valid. ALL OPINIONS ARE BULLSHIT. Stop even reading them, they’re hurting you. Go to Reuters to read news without opinionation. Learn what objectivity looks like, and try to get a handle on it.
