- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
Hamas tried to sneak its fighters out of the Gaza Strip in ambulances that evacuated dozens of wounded Palestinians to Egypt earlier this week, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.
Hamas had compiled a list of the seriously wounded that it wanted to evacuate from Gaza for treatment in Egypt, along with thousands of foreign nationals looking to flee the enclave.
The list was then vetted by Egypt and the United States, which found that a third of the names on it were of Hamas fighters, the administration official said, adding that the list was rejected and none of the 76 wounded Palestinians who were ultimately evacuated in ambulances out of Gaza were members of the terror group.
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Isn’t it convenient how every time the US or Israel bombs civilians they automatically know they we’re secretly terrorists the whole time?
Almost as if they were intentionally targeting terrorists…
Not saying they aren’t lying, but this proves exactly nothing.
You’re absolutely correct.
Another plausible scenario is they’re killing potential targets, but they’re not too picky about it. And if anybody asks they will confirm that there were actually terrorists there
Or terrorist sympathizers
Or people who hang out with terrorists
Or people who live near terrorists
Or people who promote narratives that terrorists take advantage of …
We just don’t know, we know the explosions happen, we know people are dying, the rest is propaganda from both directions
I think they must present their considerations/justifications to neutral third party, but there’s danger of very potent intelligence being publicized. Imagine if IDF/US military had a high ranking informant among Hamas leadership, who then let them know that they plan to use ambulance movement to smuggle forces/equipment in and out of Gaza. If they publish it far and wide, that person is in grave danger, but more impactful - they won’t be able to provide Intel anymore…
Hamas executes collaborators regularly so you’re right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef this guy defected because he saw it when he was in an Israeli prison.
Yousef said he saw the light after a stint in an Israeli jail during the mid-1990s. At Megiddo Prison, he witnessed Hamas inmates leading a brutal year-long campaign to weed out supposed Israeli collaborators. “During that time, Hamas tortured and killed hundreds of prisoners,” he said, recalling vivid memories of needles being inserted under finger nails and bodies charred with burning plastics. Many, if not all, had nothing to do with Israeli intelligence. “I will never forget their screams,” he continued. “I started asking myself a question. What if Hamas succeeded in destroying Israel and building a state. Will they destroy our people in this way?”[11]
I won’t bother digging up the sources unless someone asks, but Israel notified the population of Gaza earlier in the war that their families would be relocated to safety (I. E. Given Israeli citizenship and a place to live) and given a financial reward if they snitched on Hamas in any way that materially helped the war goal of freeing the hostages. There’s probably thousands of collaborators there now.
Ya it’s like they’re using the multiple billions of dollars we’ve invested in spy satellites and other technologies to track people against Hamas or something…
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Is the US intelligence that good?
It just seems that in USA it’s self they can know about a guy whose been calling for help because he’s on the verge of shooting up a place and they don’t do nothing about it until they start shooting things up. US intelligence seems incredibly dysfunctional and if they can’t sort things out at home I don’t know how they would figure these things out abroad.
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Fair point.
Oh so they just have a big list of every Hamas member and can vette them from name alone?
Ahmad Awad? Yeah, sorry bud, there’s a couple hundred of you on the list.
People have social security numbers, you know. It’s not some desert with camels where everyone is called Ahmad Awad.
Really shameful that the US is aiding and abetting genocide.
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Par for the course. One group of violent European settlers defending another.
Maybe, I mean that would be exactly the sort of data I would expect my intelligence services to acquire. Especially in a place like Egypt that has suffered so much from the crimes of the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Why not just let them through? Arrest them on the other side. They’re terrorists right? Arresting them and giving them a trial shouldn’t be an issue. They’re vulnerable when they cross the border
Actually: why not let memebers of Hamas surrender themselves at the border? If it’s a war, accepting voluntary POWs should be a net positive
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Well, hopefully they instead just stay where they are, and being grievously wounded, die from them. Unfortunately some will probably survive to keep fighting.
Actually: why not let memebers of Hamas surrender themselves at the border? If it’s a war, accepting voluntary POWs should be a net positive
Members of Hamas are considered part of the Muslim Brotherhood (as they started as an offshoot). And because of the mass murder and shit the Brotherhood has done in Egypt over the years; they’ve been summarily banned. So Hamas members are not allowed to enter Egypt.
That’s part of why Hamas had to supply a list of names before sending them so Egypt could ensure no Hamas members were part of the list.
Why not allow them to pass and then arrest them at the border? Surely better than bombing random buildings that may or may not have Hamas fighters inside.
Doing that would prompt Hamas to stop cooperating with allowing civilians to seek medical assistance outside of Gaza.
Literally every humanitarian thing Hamas permits it does so with the intention of funneling benefits to its own fighters and members.
It’s the same problem as African warlords intercepting and sitting on medical aid intended for impoverished villagers.
A system which perfectly excluded Hamas cronies and fighters from receiving the benefits is one which Hamas will begin targeting for attack because they would rather Palestinians die than be able to get aid through means outside of Hamas’ approval and exploitation
Egypt doesn’t want to deal with that. That’s actually why what were reticent at first to help and why neighboring Arab countries won’t take refugees. Radical militants have snuck in with Palestinian refugees before and caused civil wars. They even killed the King of Jordan in what was eventually called Black September.
Also allowing a war crime (using ambulances to transport fighters and/or arms) and defending it like this emboldens them to continue doing it to the detriment of civilians since they won’t face consequences.
So, blow up buildings that MIGHT have actual terrorists but also DEFINITELY have civilians is the better course of action?
Israel is already breaking international law and committing war crimes in Gaza, so what’s a few more?
Arresting someone without bombing the 50 civilians nearby them is allowing a war crime?
What brand of glue do you eat?
The kind that has a degree from a top university in engineering.
Doesn’t matter, your opinion is still lame as fuck.
Oh damn, you better not name that university. You would single handedly tank the value of their degrees and their glue
Reposting.
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Why not arrest them then, if they have proof of being terrorists?
Reposting.
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Also allowing a war crime (using ambulances to transport fighters and/or arms) and defending it like this emboldens them to continue doing it to the detriment of civilians since they won’t face consequences.
It’s an active warzone.
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and then what? terrorists cant be reprogrammed. just arrest them and then… what?
What happens when someone is arrested? That’s what.
so what do you do with them? hold them indefinitely?
I mean usually that’s what due process is like. You can also execute them, but that’s usually considered a war crime.
Not really tho, if they are terrorists and not soldiers
They’re both, though. Hamas is the government of Gaza.
2 / 3 palestinians in gaza support hamas. They won’t arrest them.
I understand the skepticism, but this is where it’s good to know your history. Radical militants have snuck in with Palestinian refugees before in the past. This has happened before.
It’s why Egypt was so reticent to accept refugees. These radicals have snuck in and caused civil strife. They even killed the King of Jordan, in what’s called Black September. This is why neighboring Arab countries aren’t taking in refugees either.
Hamas is utterly evil.
Oh I’m not really that skeptical of the report. Hamas has done this multiple times before.
🧐
This explanation sounds too flimsy to believe. Seems more like a cover story after the fact for the insane bombing of hospitals and a caravan of ambulances within a clear pattern of overall genocide.
It’s not like Hamas hasn’t been caught using ambulances to smuggle military goods around before.
while considered a war crime those crimes only ever apply in some weird optic bullshit way like nobody gets punished for this shit at all so honestly I don’t really care that they do this. I care more it takes from civilians but still feel Israel forces these tactics.
Meanwhile Israel is using WP weapons and nobody seems to respond to that.
This conflict is war crimes galore but one of these combatants has far more resources than the other. That power imbalance should be considered
WP is allowed for artillery range finding and is the US procedure as well.
That’s what’s it’s been used for. In Lebanon most of the wounded civilians got sent home the same day because Hezbollah doesn’t do the human shield shit to the same genocidal intent.
The Rome treaty you are thinking of Israel is not a party to BTW. Same as the USA.
I can believe this happens without condoning just bombing the shit out of any group of ambulances because they might contain fighters.
I think these hamas ambulances are as real as the middle eastern WMDs.
Forgive me if I don’t take everything the US says on the matter at face value.
It was a joint verification with Egypt
Fighters need medical treatment like anyone else when they get wounded, just saying …
Nah. Terrorists who cut people’s heads off can have medical treatment when they surrender.
I wish it was as simple as good vs evil. Sorry to tell you but the world is not a lotr movie, in fact it´s quite complicated …
There’s no need to be cutting civilian’s heads off regardless of your back story. That is evil.
That is an obvious and trivial truth that I of course agree with. However, murdering innocent palestinian olive farmers, to steal their land and build illegal settlements on it also seems pretty evil, right?
Obviously
They won’t answer, because they can’t see Palestinians as humans.
I didn’t say anything about either side. All I said is cutting people’s heads off is evil. I also specifically mentioned civilians without stating a side. Great assumptions though.
For the record both sides are monsters. Whether they were driven to it in your opinion or not. And the civilians on both sides are victims.
For the record both sides are monsters. Whether they were driven to it in your opinion or not. And the civilians on both sides are victims.
I see now that we in fact share the same opinion.
Sorry then. The previous poster mentioned be headings that weren’t verified.
I never said it was simple. But Hamas murdered completely innocent civilians - including babies - that they actively and intentionally targeted. They are irredeemable monsters.
IDF does the same though
It is simple. Want medical treatment, surrender. Want to conduct acts of terror FAFO
Not in this case…
In any case!
There are many people on both sides who see it the way you do. Funny part is, what side is good and what side is evil changes, based on who you ask. Based on individual perspective, ones terrorist is another ones freedom fighter. Please understand that ones judgement is only a personal, subjective opinion and never an objective truth and that one atrocity can never justify another atrocity.
Like you said later, the world isn’t simple good and evil. If they don’t surrender, they don’t get treatment. The IDF would hardly treat a member of Hamas and Hamas would hardly treat a member of the IDF. A group treating civilians can tell members of both to fuck off.
Nope, doctors even swear to not do that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
World isn’t simple good and evil. They may have a symbolic oath, but nothing says everyone else has to follow it.
You are entitled to have that opinion, have a nice day.
But you’re not entitled to enter Egypt to get it if your a member of Hamas, as the Muslim Brotherhood and it’s offshoots are banned there.
Every injured person deserves treatment, no exceptions, anything else would be inhumane.
Would you force Germany to admit a Nazi if they were sick?
What do you mean by admit? You mean to treat? Yes of course. As I said, imo every sick or injured person deserves medical treatment, no matter their background. Also, when they are healthy again, I would want to see that Nazi getting put in front of a court, questioned, convicted and punished as the law dictates.
Admit, to allow to enter.
Yes of course I would, how else could they convict him for his crimes?
Egypt doesn’t want to admit people from a group that successfully terrorized their whole nation for an extended period of time. They have no interest in convicting them.
Yeah these people killed and raped babies. Then they laughed about it. They don’t deserve shit until they surrender.
Youre talking about israel, right? The people that have been reported doing that for decades?
Nobody’s raping babies.
Source? Who am I kidding, you made it up
“Israeli forces in Kfar Aza and Be’eri[112] reported that they found bodies of victims mutilated. One IDF commander told a reporter from i24 News that 40 babies had been killed, out of what one estimate described as at least 100 civilian victims.[113][93][114][115][116][117]”
. That’s the best you’ll get from me.
Thanks for taking the time. But there was no mention of them raping babies.
If you keep reading the wiki page, there is.
Read it twice. No raped babies. Did a word search for rape and babies. Horrific tales of Palestinian girls in Israeli jails.
Those stories regarding killing babies have been shown conclusively to be false, and the journalists responsible have publicly retracted the statements and apologized for the disinformation.
There were definitely dead babies wtf do you mean? Has “there were no 40 beheaded babies” now morphed into “no dead babies at all” or what?
I wish it was as simple as good vs evil. Sorry to tell you but the world is not a lotr movie, in fact it´s quite complicated …
I never said it was. The world is full of shades of grey.
But the way this group has tried to resist oppression is despicable and cannot be excused.
@photonic_sorcerer @Nacktmull It can’t be excused yet. No one is working diligently to liberate Palestine from Israel. No one has in decades
True, and yet non-violent revolutions have succeded in the past. Hamas wants to raze Israel from the face of the earth. They have no place in a civilized society.
I fully agree but wonder why you don´t mention the other half of this truth. Obviously human slaughtering terrorists have no place in a civilized society. However, it must also be said that there is no place in a civilized society for right-extremist-racists, who murder residents and occupy their land to build illegal settlements.
Agreed
@photonic_sorcerer oh btw, saying “Hamas wants to raze Israel from the earth”, while Israel builds settlements, refusing to negotiate, commits ethnic cleansing, and brutalizes Palestinians in a myriad of other ways proves you have no idea what’s going on over there
@photonic_sorcerer I would agree with you except for the fact that Israel learned from that, and outlawed peaceful protesting. Yeah, if you peacefully protest against Israel in Israel, they’ll throw you in prison. They made their own problem here.
Israel has proven that all they learned from the Holocaust was how to do it betterBruh
Source?
I never said it was. The world is full of shades of grey.
You first comment seemed to imply a different worldview, apologies.
But the way this group has tried to resist oppression is despicable and cannot be excused.
Of course it can´t. There is guerrilla warfare and then there is barbaric slaughtering of helpless civilians. Those are absolutely not the same.
No it’s not, see the reaction of journalists/politicians who attended the screening of 43 minutes of 7-Oct atrocities…
Both sides have been in an exchange of atrocities for decades now. What is your point?
Also trying to smuggle in military supplies in humanitarian aid:
Meanwhile, two senior Israeli officials told The Times of Israel that Israeli inspectors earlier this week uncovered several oxygen concentrators meant to aerate the tunnels operated by terror organizations in Gaza.
“These weren’t for use in the hospitals, but below them. That’s why they were smuggled among boxes of cookies,” one of the senior Israeli officials said, adding that the entire truck in which the oxygen concentrators were found was barred from entering Gaza.
I mean, how do they know where they’re meant to be used? If Gazans can’t get oxygen concentrators legally they’re very much right to smuggle them.
right to smuggle them
They were told by the US and the UN what types of aid will be allowed in. Smuggling only hurts Gaza from getting the aid it needs.
But the aid it needs includes oxygen concentrators. Some people need these things not to die.
That’s how you end up with a blockade and no more aid entering Gaza. Is that what you want for those people?
Well I want people who need oxygen concentrators to get them and not die.
The Israeli source was trying to claim these have no medical use but a quick Google search reveals that indeed they are mostly used for medical reasons and can be found in hospitals or at the homes of patients.
Wounded soldiers are still wounded. The principle of hors de combat applies. If you’re wounded and in an ambulance, you’re a non-combatant and protected under the Geneva Conventions.
Not that the IDF has actually read the Geneva Conventions…
I don’t think that these were wounded soldiers.
The departure list says they are wounded soldiers.
They’re also going to Egypt lol (and there are already tunnels between Gaza and Egypt)
The active Astro turfing in this thread, and on lemmy in general, when facts conflict with a pro Hamas narrative is fucked up.
E: You guys are making it really obvious when 5 or more down votes are applied all at once.
Quote the pro hamas narrative or are we supposed to take your vague word for it?
It’s called checking the down vote history which is public if you run a federated instance.
Or how certain instances you frequent ban people for posting facts.
Link specifically to some that support your claim? You made the claim, you support it.
You mentioned it happened in this thread. Show me please? You also said it’s in lemmy in general, honestly please share some evidence or take your statement elsewhere where people will take you on face value.
Yes yes, good to see the news from the unbiased source of…lowers glasses…Times of Israel
Other places are reporting it too. If you have a counter source please post.
aka terrorists do terrorist things
Turns out a lot of people on the left think the jihadist shit that hurts civilians is justified because their side is oppressed.
It’s disgusting and perpetuates the cycle of violence. Before the current war things were improving. Israelis were fighting hard to remove Netanyahu from power, including the military (air force) striking.
Edit: No one cares about the Israelis (Including the 20% Arab citizen pop) entering the west bank at the risk of being murdered to defend Olive picking workers from Israeli settlers and IDF clowns who disgrace their uniforms.
