I will no longer be able to assist with development nor debugging actual issues with the software… Quite juvenile behavior from the devs. It stemmed from this issue where the devs continuously argued in public by opening and closing an issue. Anyway, thought I would keep y’all apprised of the situation, since these are the people maintaining the software you are currently using.
I think that you should update your post with information that this ban is only for 7 days.
This:
I will no longer be able to assist with development
suggests that ban is infinite, which is not true.
Yeah but if you were in this position would really want to contribute again? It’s virtually an indefinite ban when the reason is this absurd.
Yes, If I would contribute to lemmy, I wouldn’t do it for the devs, but for the software and its users.
EDIT: But don’t think that I support nutomic’s reaction to OP’s comments.
Screw that. The devs are a key component in a software project.
By the way, it’s “its* users”.
Thanks for correction, edited.
Unwilling =/= Unable, this is transparent sophistry
Where do you see that information? I didn’t even know it was possible to do this until last night so not sure how I’m supposed to know how long it lasts.
Sorry, I assumed that github shows it to you somehow. I know about it from nutomic’s comment
thank you, yes I their comment later on. No, github didn’t even tell me I was banned. I happened to notice because I left the tab open and was moving through them trying to find something else.
Someone just linked me this, seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Pm me either through here or on matrix and we can try to get it resolved.
From Nutomic in this very post:
You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
Where’s the misunderstanding? Seems like this was intended based on their reaction.
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“It will teach you a lesson”
Wow. Way to treat volunteers.
“misunderstanding”
Informative, and unfortunate.
100% agree with your take on the original issue - it should be a discussion between the devs, not edging along the lines of an argument. However, I do feel like the discussion would have been better suited to the dev Matrix chat or something
Even if they were upsetted by your comments, banning you was not the right way to handle that IMO.
Just do it like other projects - tag it as enhancement, postpone it forever, be done with it. And in case it’s a useful enhancement, you can see the votes accumulating on the issue and maybe really reconsider implementing it?
Informative, and unfortunate.
Do you watch Louis Rossmann? I’ve heard him say that phrase many times in his videos.
Yepp I do, that’s where I got it from lol
Idk I think y’all are a bit too dramatic lol. Imho you’re reading too much into a small aggression. This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
I didn’t say it did. I mentioned that it would affect me, the person who runs the server you’re commenting on. That’s it.
I was referring to other commenters, mb should’ve been clearer about it
It is certainly becoming a pattern. Similar upsets around both moderation and database optimization.
Hey bud when was the last time you went outside for a walk in nature and talked to someone in IRL? Because you seem to have created the most useless drama for yourself.
In in real life lol?
Did I stutter?
nothing to do with the future of Lemmy
Let’s not go that far. That said, it’s certainly not everything to do with it either. Let’s call it an indicator and keep an eye on it.
Quite juvenile behavior from the devs.
The constant closing and reopening the issue was a bit weird but I didn’t really see any hostility or toxic behavior, except from you getting pissy about it out of nowhere.
Looks like snowe missed the fact that each of those close/reopens were months apart, so it’s clear the issue would ge re-opened, still not addressed after many many months, then closed to clean up the backlog, then re-opened because it actually still has value.
Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
What he did wrong was comment about behaviors/edicit on a PR, which is not the appropriate place to have that convo.
PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
I don’t even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
However the owner’s reaction of a whopping seven day ban and “learn your lesson” comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
Both sides fucked up here, get ya’lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
Well yeah the second comment didn’t really had to be, but hey it’s certainly not really reason enough to ban someone from the repo. The first comment I think is totally ok (as well as marking it off-topic, but optimally with an answer, probably marked as off-topic as well). Just keep an issue (it’s not a PR) open, until the issue is resolved in one way or the other i.e. either solved reasonably via a third-party client (with links to it) or directly in the repo, asking the community (when it’s not obvious that the issue is resolved), whether this is resolved, wait for reactions, and close it after some time based on that. Banning someone, or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument, that the issue is not solved etc. is just childish behaviour, especially for a community focused project (I’m watching a few lemmy issues on GH).
or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument
Thats where I think the misunderstanding was, if you look at the dates, many of the closings happened months after the issue was opened and no one posted anything on it, so it would clearly look to be a stale issue, so its reasonable to give a quick “Im closing this because of x” comment.
Often in those cases the person is doing a bunch of cleanup and has to close dozens of stale issues, so writing a multi paragraph response on every single one is a lot of time to put into it.
Then later the issue is re-opened again because it actually isnt stale, it just looks stale, and the cycle repeats as it continues to sit on the backburner.
This is all very normal on any larger project, its pretty common to see issues get closed and re-opened if they are very low priority and sit on the backburner for literally years, and its common to see they have a bunch of short “Im closing this because x” responses as a result.
But, if you look at the dates, you go "Oh, I see, these comments are months apart and not even really a “convo” but more just documentation.
misunderstanding was
I think here’s a misunderstanding too :). With quickly I mean closing without getting feedback, or without providing a good reason why the issue is closed (without being obviously resolved), not the dates (which I think are only relevant, when actually awaiting a response). I have seen this over the repo a few times, good writeups often explaining some behavior etc. and then bam closed, either as duplicate (although it’s not (example)), or “not as planned” etc. I think this is not good behavior for an open source project (I’m around the block for a few years contributing and maintaining OSS, for reference…). Especially as this is a real community project and not some random opinionated application (well depending on how you define it, could be true to lemmy, but I don’t think it is…)
I rather let an issue open than close it, “just to have fewer open issues”. I can close it anytime, and if someone searches for that issue sees it closed while it isn’t resolved, it just creates confusion…
You are correct. I didn’t notice that the comments were quite far apart. I was sent that issue by concerned members of my community and I kinda rushed in and commented.
Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
correct, but it was not simply based on that one Issue. It was based on months of watching their interactions with the community.
PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
Then where do you have those conversations? (also it wasn’t a PR, it was an issue) The conversations are about the code and about the decision making process around the code. They belong in a permanent store (not chat) where the decisions can be referenced. Would you recommend creating another separate issue to have the conversation?
I don’t even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
I can agree that my second comment was off-topic, but the first comment clearly discussed why the issue should be left open.
However the owner’s reaction of a whopping seven day ban and “learn your lesson” comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
Honestly that wasn’t the part that frustrated me. It was the no response no warning part of the interaction that was insulting. How am I supposed to know whether they marked my comment off-topic because I commented on the closing of the Issue or because they just didn’t want to talk to users about the problem? How was I supposed to know that I was even going to get a ban (I didn’t even know you could ban people and I have over a hundred repos on GH) for continuing to comment? And finally how was I supposed to even know that the ban was temporary? All the lack of communication did was lead to me making this post. If I had known it was only 7 days I probably wouldn’t have done anything at all. Just let it pass, as waiting a week to respond is nothing in OSS land.
Both sides fucked up here, get ya’lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
I’ve already talked to Dessalines about it. Not sure what to do about Nutomic.
Dude, who in their right mind would add scheduling infra to a client like that? 😆 I’m going to need these Lemmy devs to have a tad bit more experience before they start being so dismissive, especially to someone who’s just trying to help.
Hi there more experienced person, would you mind explaining the intricacies of the madness for a lowly n00b?
Is it just 'cause it’d need the client to be constantly running to output the scheduling? So like, you set it to schedule a post and then you have to actually open it as an app before it would actually work if it wasn’t running in the background when the time ticked over? Is there more to it? Any and all details you’d be willing to explain would be appreciated.
Regardless, I hope you have a lovely day and best of luck with everything you’re doing!
A “client” in this context can mean anything, including another separate service.
This makes no sense to have in a desktop/mobile app, but it certainly should not go to the server as well.
Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people are also in a very bad mood and act weirdly because of that. Let’s not make a big drama out of it.
Sure. You’re not the one with the seven day ban.
Oh no a whole 7 days? How will they ever survive /s
Are you actually /banned/ front participating on GitHub? That seems really petty.
Apparantly it’s for a week
Lemmy needs a fork, if only to kick the devs into gear with regards to actually working with/listening to the community. At this point a significant number of users have been lost because the devs have been largely unable to capitalize on previous waves on growth due to slow development. It’s one thing if it’s just a couple of devs working on the project and trying their best, it’s an entirely different thing when a couple of devs are shutting out large numbers of contributors (frequently subject matter experts which they desperately need at this point) over relatively trivial issues. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last. Mbin is reviving Kbin as a project and we need something similar for Lemmy.
Forks would murder the community is they weren’t compatible
They don’t have to be incompatible.
Yup.
In fact, you don’t need to be based on Lemmy’s codebase in order to be compatible with Lemmy. See: Kbin/Mbin, https://azorius.net, https://narwhal.city (which seems to be lotide’s flagship?), or heck, Mastodon (although the interoperability UX there isn’t the best)
Building on Lemmy would make things significantly easier, especially regarding the quirks of Lemmy’s implementation of ActivityPub & FEP-1b12 though, so a fork would be the path of least resistance.
The fedi has a long history of forks for a variety of reasons. Hell, Misskey alone has like a bajillion forks to the point where it’s a meme how many of them there are, and yet they’re all compatible.
In fact, you don’t need to be based on Lemmy’s codebase in order to be compatible with Lemmy. See: Kbin/Mbin, https://azorius.net, https://narwhal.city (which seems to be lotide’s flagship?), or heck, Mastodon (although the interoperability UX there isn’t the best)
Of all the misplaced priorities by the dev team I really think this is one of the biggest. If they just fixed authorized fetch Lemmy would almost certainly be the goto host for groups among the broader Fediverse.
Lemmy is such junk the community should toss it and start elsewhere.
Let’s not forget, there is a very real sense in which building the communities is harder than building the software. Anything that can be done to preserve existing communities is a win in my book.
Completely agree here.
Yeah, I’d tend to agree. Lemmy’s codebase is pretty atrocious and it looks like the main devs really don’t know Rust well enough, and honestly they don’t seem to be very good at developing a service like this. There’s just no reason to go with Rust for a web service project like Lemmy (despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me), it limits the amount of people who can work on it due to not being as commonly used in this particular field, and it’s honestly baffling how they managed to use Rust and make the service as slow as it is – speaks volumes of how shitty the design is, and that they’re doing something fairly stupid with their database.
I really don’t think it has anything to do with Rust. Just poorly written firstpass SQL queries. See here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2877
I didn’t mean it’s slow because of Rust
despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me
And here I am :)
There’s a lot of reasons to go with Rust (and least of all performance), especially as web-backend. Top-notch libraries/ecosystem (I work extensively with all kinds of programming languages and most others suck in one way or the other). At this point I dare to say that it has the best ecosystem in this regards. Also a static type-system only being exceeded by Haskell (when talking about general purpose languages, that are actually in use), which makes projects maintainable by a lot of people, especially relevant for an open source project. There’s a reason why a lot of high quality projects are either rewriting or starting in Rust or are thinking to switch to… Etc. don’t want to throw more Rust evangalism at you, since there’s a lot to just google and learn…
Anyway, there were a few changes lately that made federated lemmy better (with the last release especially), the initial bugs I accept. But I agree, they aren’t veterans from the valley with multiple years of experience, just a bunch of idealists that had an idea and were persistent enough for years to implement it, I certainly have respect for that. What I don’t like, is that they are moderating a little bit too much, not being mostly community focused (among others, to avoid forks). But bringing a federated link aggregator like lemmy to the place where it currently is, at least takes quite a bit of time… So a fork (if really necessary) sounds like the most likely way forward…
I seriously doubt Rust has the best ecosystem for web backend development, and I seriously doubt anybody claiming that knows what they’re talking about
Sure you can doubt me as much as you want (and this is probably a healthy attitude). I tend to educate myself, and learn from experience (and that I dare to say, I do have…). As you may have guessed, I really recommend looking into it, there’s so many good design decisions with Rust (and the ecosystem). As a starting point/library: axum would be the web-framework I’d recommend to use (as it uses Rust quite idiomatically). And for e.g. service communication via grpc, tonic is quite nice. As database abstraction layer the last time I have used sqlx which was quite convenient to use. (So far with a “classic” web-stack). And rust-analyzer is probably the best language server I have used (and felt the fast development over the time (with “successful” switch of the maintainer), which speaks for itself as well…).
Btw. it also really depends on what you actually mean with “web backend development”. I.e. “just” writing a web-server that takes connections via HTTP or something deeper the stack…
I like your attitude and approach to this conversation. Thanks for not escalating into a useless argument and making the discussion educational.
I mean, “best” is infinitely subjective. I would be inclined to think any anyone who says “php is the best backend software ecosystem for web” doesn’t care much about programming and are really only in the business of making money. Rust is at the creative forefront right now, it makes sense a bunch of pissed off people chose rust to make a reddit clone, it would be challenging to draw passionate engineers to a php or java project; it gives a way to draw more helpful attention (which they are as we now see squandering)
Yeah best is probably not the “best” wording and a little bit provocative, but it’s the “best” ecosystem I have found so far (and I squabbled around with like ~10+ programming languages, often at a deeper level). I’m mostly talking out of a development-experience + quality of software standpoint.
I’m very happy to be proven wrong, or be given a different direction (but C# or JS/TS are definitely not the languages/ecosystem I want to be confronted with, or even maintain systems in it…)
Just an all round juvenile behaviour from the devs. Would expect a project like this to be more properly managed.
Sorry, which account is yours?
The inflammatory one
What’s inflamatory about it? Genuine question.
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They are the account whose comment is collapsed as off-topic
This is ridiculously petty from the devs, and does make me seriously wonder about Lemmy’s future.
Idk if they care about a particular thing FOOS devs are often petty. I don’t think it’s actually a threat to the project. Like read unix mailing lists from Linus or whoever else, it can get downright toxic. e.g.:
"BULLSHIT. Have you looked at the patches you are talking about? You should have - several of them bear your name. […] As it is, the patches are COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. […] WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON? " here
I think Linus gets away with a lot because the value Linux delivers is pretty out of this world.
Being rude to people trying to contribute in good faith seems like a way to send them to a competitor and if one exists, that doesn’t bode well for the project.
Opening an issue that is a feature request is hardly a contribution, especially if there are few full time devs it might be a distraction more than a contribution, and there is like 1 open source competitor.
Ideas are free, finished working code is expensive, if the devs think they can’t get to it in the next N years they probably just don’t want to see it.
As I said I don’t buy how this would be an actual problem, maybe it’s rude but who cares, the admin is essentially an end user demanding something, at the end of the day he can write it himself or stfu. The devs time will certainly be spent better almost anywhere else than arguing on a GitHub issue.
If ideas are free, why do Fortune 500 companies routinely bribe their customers to tell them about the experience so far?
Because feedback from people using your software is valid and valuable. Feedback from power users of your software (admins of instances) is even more valuable.
I understand why you feel the way you feel, but this isn’t how a healthy project is run.
You say the devs time would be better spent developing and I agree. Interesting that they took time out of their day to issue a ban and then come here to weakly defend it. It’s almost like they could have just ignored the OP and none of this would have happened.
In the first part I disagree, fortune 500 aren’t looking for ideas they are gathering data, the difference here is one of quantity. And they will at least usually not gather free form things unless they have significant resources to commit to sorting through it. Or it’s specifically payed support.
Feedback is valuable only if actionable, if the feedback can’t be acted on because one dev largely already said yes and the other one largely thinks there is more important stuff right now it’s not actionable. That’s why companies have teams specifically for market research or marketing or whatever, they don’t usually let the devs gather it themselves. And in the case of big open source projects with full time staff handling the issues on the GitHub might be partially done by a not dev team. Or a dev team member that’s not a dev themselves.
Yes the dev can choose to spend time bickering about this here, I don’t really care and I never said he should develop instead, I might think it’s stupid but again who cares. Ignoring would perhaps have been better but blocking for 7 days is almost like ignoring, just that the trigger is blocked for 7 days as well, completely reasonable to do if it was actually annoying, and it might’ve been considering it was two largely unnecessary comments.
I even agree with you that the devs seem sorta toxic and maybe their project management style is unhealthy, but they are devs, as long as they continue to develop a reasonable software who cares how it’s run. They are not pr or even project managers, they are devs, maybe they chose their job by what they can do and just ended up having to do the community management on GitHub as well because their software is open source.
If they actually had active control over the future of the software in the general sense, i.e. if it was closed source i would be concerned with the characters running the project. But it’s open source, the future doesn’t depend on specific devs, it’s explicitly set up so that the current devs could die or delete it or whatever, and in response anyone willing could create a fork with a scheduler and anything else they might want, it even works with a federated approach so any fork would be backwards compatible.
Did you look at the subject at hand? It wasn’t a feature request, it was an a bug issue that had been opened by the programming.dev admins back when there were issues with the instance not federating. It seems to me like OP was providing context(after the issue was mysteriously resolved) and the Lemmy dev lost his cool.
The one linked by snowe above and is the cause of this is on a feature request but its not a feature request made by snowe, its one made by dessalines.
All of snowes comments got collapsed due to getting marked as off topic which seems to be making people think hes dessalines when thats another lemmy dev
Snowe in the thread explaining it
The bug report is a different thing from this (although now snowe cant comment on that thread due to being banned and everything there and in some other spots such as a pull request I was making are also marked as off topic). Probably will get resolved by dessalines based on dessalines comment but weve got Pangora being built up as well
Hmm, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, on PCSX2.
Your time and talent is better spent elsewhere. Don’t even think about this any longer.
You wanted to help and they acted in this way. You made yourself clear, so it’s on them to reevaluate.
Your time isn’t free, so don’t spend it on stupid people. I know you’re passionate and want to help, but sometimes it unfortunately comes down to this.
As a frequent user of pcsx2, what’s the drama there?
I tried to submit a patch to disable interlacing and enable full res rendering for Gran Turismo 3.
refractionpcsx2 didn’t like it because the PAL version patch wasn’t fully finished yet. (This was because I literally restarted development in the middle of the PR I made.)
Instead of telling me to resubmit once it’s done, refractionpcsx2 tells me “we don’t want your broken patches”, accuses me of sneaking in stuff and eventually bans me because I gave up on submitting it after growing very frustrated (4 or 5 days of work on the patches).
I made a post in one of the emulation communities here on Lemmy if you want more details.
Fork! Fork! Fork!
