A recent Wall Street Journal article — an actual article, in the workplace/lifestyle section, not even an op-ed! — laments the recent trend of horrible, lazy workers who, umm … *checks notes* … tak…
the idea that sick days somehow impose a financial burden of the company is a blatant lie of criminal proportions. It is a justification for wage theft
I’m in the US and I get 3 paid sick days a year. Anything more and I don’t get paid PLUS I get a point. After 8 points I lose my job. We come to work sick unless we are in the hospital.
My last job had no sick days. I would get no pay for the day and a point, and at 6 points you’re gone.
The job I have now ALSO has no sick days, but at least the attendance policy is so lax I can literally skip 2/3 shifts and stay employed. Still no pay, but it’s a bit less shitty than my last job.
The bar is so fucking low I don’t think ground penetrating radar could find it.
I work in Spain, we don’t have sick days. If the doctor says we are not apt to work, we take a leave intil the doctor says so. Indefinitely. No maximum. As long as the doctor says.
This limit thing is so weird. Yeah, you can use them as vacation of you are healthy but that’s an abuse and then when you need them you will be vulnerable without days. It’s better to have infinite days, to be used only when you are actually sick, as stated by your doctor.
Right right, if your leave is longer than a year the permanent inability (incapacidad permanente, diferente a una discapacidad) cards pop up, since chances are you will never be able to be able to return to the same work you did, like an ernia for a driver and so on.
In any case, people taking a year long leave is kind of rare and it’s practically limitless compared to the 2-30 days the other mentioned countries get.
(edit - i live in the us) i can purchase extra insurance for short-term and for long-term sick leave.
right now, i have ten days of paid time off for whatever reason per year (no explicit sick leave) and i pay about $650 a month for insurance which covers very little for myself and my kids until i have spent at least $6000 on any one of us or $15000 for all of us together. i make about $50k a year before tax and insurance.
and our compensation package (paid time off and insurance) is considered pretty good for my area.
i could buy better insurance and short and long term leave, but this would cost about half of what i make. unfortunately, half of what i make already goes to rent.
I’m always amazed by how Americans in particular (sorry if you’re not, I’m assuming) tend to go from one end of the spectrum to the other without any middle stops in common sense land. I once had a US friend go straight from “we have bad health care” to “we need a violent revolution” with no consideration to… you know, maybe good health care?
I mean, from my perspective it seems pretty obvious that you should only take as many sick days as you need, but you should take all the ones you need, to an unlimited total amount.
Like, that seems so simple. It’s how it’s always worked in the multiple countries I’ve lived in. You’re sick? You call in sick. You need to be off for multiple days? You ask your doctor to officially declare that you’re sick. The company is taking a hit? The government covers your wages during your long term sickness.
This works. We know this works. It’s obvious this works.
We don’t believe that the government will let us have good Healthcare without revolution at this point. One side violently opposes it and the other dangles it like a carrot on a stick for votes, with no intention of actually providing it because if they actually improved things somewhat they’d lose a precious bargaining chip. This song and dance has been going on for as long as I’ve been alive. We’re losing hope here.
See? But that’s the thought process that I find baffling. Because I can’t find an American who doesn’t claim to be dissatisfied, so… how do you land in that mix of conformism, where you don’t think you can take political action of any sort to address it, but also extremism, where you think the logical endgame is full on armed conflict?
How do you massage a whole continent-sized country’s psyche into just sitting there and taking it right up until the point where you start shooting people? I’m not even French and even I can see the glaring hole full of mass protesting right in the middle of that crap.
And hey, not to spoil any big secrets, but the US is literally the only democracy that hasn’t rewritten its constitution fundamentally since its creation. You guys know that’s allowed, right? Go argue for a proportional system or a parliamentary system or something. I mean, you guys could try doing something at all before deciding that it’s full-on purge time.
Because if we try to change anything, we run the (very high) risk of losing our jobs, then our homes, and ending up on the streets. If you have a way to get over 300 million people all on the same page for a general strike, who are all willing to risk losing their income, please let me know.
I mean… as the other guy says below, if you’re considering revolution surely a general strike is a notch below that level of commitment.
But also, I’ve lived through multiple general strikes. I don’t know what to tell you, a party and a bunch of unions called for them, people followed them at will. Some changed stuff, others didn’t. Nobody lost their jobs or homes, among other things because it’s illegal to retalliate against a strike. Because, you know, we had strikes about that.
We’re not even a particularly old democracy, we were an outright fascist country less than a century ago. My dad remembers running away from fascist police when he was in college. I don’t know what to tell you.
In the US there are only two parties of any real significance. General strike is something neither of them would ever call for. Only about 10.1% of US workers have a union.
Nobody lost their jobs or homes, among other things because it’s illegal to retalliate against a strike.
In the US, strike retaliation, while technically illegal, is very rarely enforced. When it is, the penalty is … they have to undo the thing they did and were penalized for. No fine, no concession, no additional monitoring, and there was always the (very good) chance they’d get away with it.
Sadly, in a country where guns are common and unions aren’t, armed revolt is just more imaginable than a general strike.
I’m American and it’s never made much sense to me, either.
Afaik it’s fundementally 5 forces.
Severe distrust of the established institutions, including the democratic process.
Long-drawn, multi-generational unrest ever since late globalization and the decline of unions.
Anti-labor propaganda and institutional complacency.
Increased alienation and in-fighting among the population. Got much worse ever since the MAGA repubs cropped up. We’re fighting against 40-50% of the population for basic shit. (Have you seen our paralyzed congress?)
Finally, this unwillingness to be the first to bite the bullet. Inevitably, the first people to start off these grassroots movements are going to get the shortest end of the stick. They are people sacrificing their free time and economic security for a movement that begs others to do the same.
FWIW, I do recognize all of those from the outside looking in.
I also recognize that you have so few protections that action is riskier than it is here, where protesting can’t be legally retaliated against and there are actual labor protections in place that make effecting change easier. Which in turn is part of the expectation that the government should proactively help you when you need it.
But still, it does seem like there should be a middle point somewhere where you get rid at least of point one and you tip over point three, right? That seems like it’d happen way before stuff gets really violent.
But then, culturally you guys fantasize about violently confronting the government since day one, which I guess is what happens when your foundational myth is also a colonial-revolutionary myth.
Historically speaking, the most successful leaps forward have come about via methods that were branded as “terrorism” while they were happening. If we had restricted ourselves exclusively to what you call “constructive”, we would have never freed ourselves from the shackles of monarchy, or in the case of the American Civil War, the much more literal shackles of, well, shackles. Violence should be a last resort, but keeping off the table entirely is just naive.
Now, this? This is a crucial difference. As I was saying before, the foundational revolultionary myth of the US is a lot, and it sure looks like it sets the stage.
I mean, that statement is absurd on the face of it, seeing how… you know, the UK exists and it’s ostensibly a democracy (a social democracy, even, by some definitions) and so are all the other colonial powers and a lot of the independent colonies, major liberal revolution or not.
It makes no sense, but you still said it as a fact. It’s still bipartisan enough that you didn’t picture it in your head as a bit of conservative historical fantasy mythmaking, you put it out there as a verifiable thing you can just say. The opposite notion is naive, even.
That must leave a mark, right? The indoctrination and warped perspective of the relationship with government, progress and change that mindset must give you HAS to be a part of this.
the american population, however, is deadlocked in their opposed visions of what progress looks like, and leadership is not strong enough to do much more than continue to consolidate and protect their own power and authority.
again, change at the lower bars you have proposed is very difficult indeed, and requires shared vision that is very hard to come by here. it doesn’t help people to feel change can be obtained through current systems or non-violent strikes that a) financial constraints are so much harder to overcome than in previous decades (i.e. trying to strike could mean inability to feed or house yourself or to afford needed medical care) and b) what change we managed in recent decades has been rolled back (roe v. wade) or is under attack (civil rights).
i hate that my comment is so negative and i don’t want to discourage any fellow americans from trying to create positive change. i’m just sharing my own voice and why it’s hard to imagine success short of revolution. i feel like advocacy and voting are all i can really do right now, and they are honestly not very effective.
Did you just say the government pays regular citizens?? Where I come from that’s communism. Governments are only supposed to pay corporations like the good lord intended.
No. If you have paid time off it is part of your compensation package. A better way to look at it is if you work 52 weeks a year and your employment includes a week of PTO, then you are effectively due 53 weeks of pay and any time you take off is subtracted from that number.
Where I work (not California) this time is “use it or lose it” so no. Our comp is 52 weeks a year and we can take up to 3 weeks (not consecutive) of that off for whatever if scheduled or unscheduled for sickness. 1 week if you are new.
Still yes. The point is that PTO is part of your compensation package. If you don’t use it you are not receiving that compensation. Put it another way: if part of your compensation package is a company vehicle (just like everyone else in the company) but you work from home, are you going to consider that fair compensation?
I get 5% extra per year saved of sick leave on my pension, up to 2 years, adjusted to percent of the year left of sick leave. But my job is fun and people tend to want to work.
people should use all of their sick days
Why do you even have an allocation of sick days? It’s not really a concept anywhere I’ve worked (in the UK).
I’m in the US and I get 3 paid sick days a year. Anything more and I don’t get paid PLUS I get a point. After 8 points I lose my job. We come to work sick unless we are in the hospital.
That is fucking insane. The burden for everyone who gets sincerely sick and is horrible fucked. Its just sad.
My last job had no sick days. I would get no pay for the day and a point, and at 6 points you’re gone.
The job I have now ALSO has no sick days, but at least the attendance policy is so lax I can literally skip 2/3 shifts and stay employed. Still no pay, but it’s a bit less shitty than my last job.
The bar is so fucking low I don’t think ground penetrating radar could find it.
Might be worth checking the flowchart to see if you’re eligible for FMLA leave. If you are and they’re denying you sick leave The Department of Labor would love to hear about it – they don’t screw around.
I read FMLA as Fuck My Life America.
(Not American)
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I work in Spain, we don’t have sick days. If the doctor says we are not apt to work, we take a leave intil the doctor says so. Indefinitely. No maximum. As long as the doctor says.
This limit thing is so weird. Yeah, you can use them as vacation of you are healthy but that’s an abuse and then when you need them you will be vulnerable without days. It’s better to have infinite days, to be used only when you are actually sick, as stated by your doctor.
I work in Spain, happen to be on sick leave/disability, and that’s not exactly correct:
If the insurer decides that you’re healed, you can’t go back onto a sick leave for the same reason for… I think it’s 6 months.
Right right, if your leave is longer than a year the permanent inability (incapacidad permanente, diferente a una discapacidad) cards pop up, since chances are you will never be able to be able to return to the same work you did, like an ernia for a driver and so on.
In any case, people taking a year long leave is kind of rare and it’s practically limitless compared to the 2-30 days the other mentioned countries get.
Good luck with your situation.
(edit - i live in the us) i can purchase extra insurance for short-term and for long-term sick leave.
right now, i have ten days of paid time off for whatever reason per year (no explicit sick leave) and i pay about $650 a month for insurance which covers very little for myself and my kids until i have spent at least $6000 on any one of us or $15000 for all of us together. i make about $50k a year before tax and insurance.
and our compensation package (paid time off and insurance) is considered pretty good for my area.
i could buy better insurance and short and long term leave, but this would cost about half of what i make. unfortunately, half of what i make already goes to rent.
I’m always amazed by how Americans in particular (sorry if you’re not, I’m assuming) tend to go from one end of the spectrum to the other without any middle stops in common sense land. I once had a US friend go straight from “we have bad health care” to “we need a violent revolution” with no consideration to… you know, maybe good health care?
I mean, from my perspective it seems pretty obvious that you should only take as many sick days as you need, but you should take all the ones you need, to an unlimited total amount.
Like, that seems so simple. It’s how it’s always worked in the multiple countries I’ve lived in. You’re sick? You call in sick. You need to be off for multiple days? You ask your doctor to officially declare that you’re sick. The company is taking a hit? The government covers your wages during your long term sickness.
This works. We know this works. It’s obvious this works.
We don’t believe that the government will let us have good Healthcare without revolution at this point. One side violently opposes it and the other dangles it like a carrot on a stick for votes, with no intention of actually providing it because if they actually improved things somewhat they’d lose a precious bargaining chip. This song and dance has been going on for as long as I’ve been alive. We’re losing hope here.
See? But that’s the thought process that I find baffling. Because I can’t find an American who doesn’t claim to be dissatisfied, so… how do you land in that mix of conformism, where you don’t think you can take political action of any sort to address it, but also extremism, where you think the logical endgame is full on armed conflict?
How do you massage a whole continent-sized country’s psyche into just sitting there and taking it right up until the point where you start shooting people? I’m not even French and even I can see the glaring hole full of mass protesting right in the middle of that crap.
And hey, not to spoil any big secrets, but the US is literally the only democracy that hasn’t rewritten its constitution fundamentally since its creation. You guys know that’s allowed, right? Go argue for a proportional system or a parliamentary system or something. I mean, you guys could try doing something at all before deciding that it’s full-on purge time.
Because if we try to change anything, we run the (very high) risk of losing our jobs, then our homes, and ending up on the streets. If you have a way to get over 300 million people all on the same page for a general strike, who are all willing to risk losing their income, please let me know.
I don’t think this really addresses the question. Revolution provides even more of an economic disruption?
Keep in mind the OP is not an American. They don’t have the context.
I mean… as the other guy says below, if you’re considering revolution surely a general strike is a notch below that level of commitment.
But also, I’ve lived through multiple general strikes. I don’t know what to tell you, a party and a bunch of unions called for them, people followed them at will. Some changed stuff, others didn’t. Nobody lost their jobs or homes, among other things because it’s illegal to retalliate against a strike. Because, you know, we had strikes about that.
We’re not even a particularly old democracy, we were an outright fascist country less than a century ago. My dad remembers running away from fascist police when he was in college. I don’t know what to tell you.
Part of the problem for major reforms is that large areas of empty land have more power than the will of the people to get things through the Senate.
In the US there are only two parties of any real significance. General strike is something neither of them would ever call for. Only about 10.1% of US workers have a union.
In the US, strike retaliation, while technically illegal, is very rarely enforced. When it is, the penalty is … they have to undo the thing they did and were penalized for. No fine, no concession, no additional monitoring, and there was always the (very good) chance they’d get away with it.
Sadly, in a country where guns are common and unions aren’t, armed revolt is just more imaginable than a general strike.
well said, thank you.
I’m American and it’s never made much sense to me, either.
Afaik it’s fundementally 5 forces.
Finally, this unwillingness to be the first to bite the bullet. Inevitably, the first people to start off these grassroots movements are going to get the shortest end of the stick. They are people sacrificing their free time and economic security for a movement that begs others to do the same.
It’s a massive risk.
FWIW, I do recognize all of those from the outside looking in.
I also recognize that you have so few protections that action is riskier than it is here, where protesting can’t be legally retaliated against and there are actual labor protections in place that make effecting change easier. Which in turn is part of the expectation that the government should proactively help you when you need it.
But still, it does seem like there should be a middle point somewhere where you get rid at least of point one and you tip over point three, right? That seems like it’d happen way before stuff gets really violent.
But then, culturally you guys fantasize about violently confronting the government since day one, which I guess is what happens when your foundational myth is also a colonial-revolutionary myth.
It is pretty messed up, though.
We are protesting. So far we’ve been at best ignored, and at worst…
You’ve probably seen what our police are like.
Then we aren’t getting it because you no money deserve anything once you’re a terrorist. We need to do something constructive, not kill people.
Historically speaking, the most successful leaps forward have come about via methods that were branded as “terrorism” while they were happening. If we had restricted ourselves exclusively to what you call “constructive”, we would have never freed ourselves from the shackles of monarchy, or in the case of the American Civil War, the much more literal shackles of, well, shackles. Violence should be a last resort, but keeping off the table entirely is just naive.
Now, this? This is a crucial difference. As I was saying before, the foundational revolultionary myth of the US is a lot, and it sure looks like it sets the stage.
I mean, that statement is absurd on the face of it, seeing how… you know, the UK exists and it’s ostensibly a democracy (a social democracy, even, by some definitions) and so are all the other colonial powers and a lot of the independent colonies, major liberal revolution or not.
It makes no sense, but you still said it as a fact. It’s still bipartisan enough that you didn’t picture it in your head as a bit of conservative historical fantasy mythmaking, you put it out there as a verifiable thing you can just say. The opposite notion is naive, even.
That must leave a mark, right? The indoctrination and warped perspective of the relationship with government, progress and change that mindset must give you HAS to be a part of this.
the american population, however, is deadlocked in their opposed visions of what progress looks like, and leadership is not strong enough to do much more than continue to consolidate and protect their own power and authority.
again, change at the lower bars you have proposed is very difficult indeed, and requires shared vision that is very hard to come by here. it doesn’t help people to feel change can be obtained through current systems or non-violent strikes that a) financial constraints are so much harder to overcome than in previous decades (i.e. trying to strike could mean inability to feed or house yourself or to afford needed medical care) and b) what change we managed in recent decades has been rolled back (roe v. wade) or is under attack (civil rights).
i hate that my comment is so negative and i don’t want to discourage any fellow americans from trying to create positive change. i’m just sharing my own voice and why it’s hard to imagine success short of revolution. i feel like advocacy and voting are all i can really do right now, and they are honestly not very effective.
Did you just say the government pays regular citizens?? Where I come from that’s communism. Governments are only supposed to pay corporations like the good lord intended.
Well, no, they do. They pay your boss to pay you. Or they pay you instead of your boss. Either way your boss gets stuff, so… yay capitalism?
Eh, doesn’t those depend on how often I get sick? That’s the idea, no? A doctor signs me off being unable to work?
No. If you have paid time off it is part of your compensation package. A better way to look at it is if you work 52 weeks a year and your employment includes a week of PTO, then you are effectively due 53 weeks of pay and any time you take off is subtracted from that number.
Where I work (not California) this time is “use it or lose it” so no. Our comp is 52 weeks a year and we can take up to 3 weeks (not consecutive) of that off for whatever if scheduled or unscheduled for sickness. 1 week if you are new.
Still yes. The point is that PTO is part of your compensation package. If you don’t use it you are not receiving that compensation. Put it another way: if part of your compensation package is a company vehicle (just like everyone else in the company) but you work from home, are you going to consider that fair compensation?
Yes I understand that. Just wanted to point out that most places don’t pay out unused PTO. Unless required by law.
Oh for sure, which is why it should be.
I get 5% extra per year saved of sick leave on my pension, up to 2 years, adjusted to percent of the year left of sick leave. But my job is fun and people tend to want to work.