The European Parliament and the Council are discussing a regulation that would ensure all messages get scanned for child pornography and which is perceived by many as a threat to basic freedoms
Sorry, I can’t tell if you’re trolling or sincere. We can talk about that if you like. Privacy is a super important topic nowadays that we spend a good part of our time online and all kinds of data about our lives is stored on electronic devices.
I am a European using a Chinese phone with a my manufacturer’s customized version of Android and Google play services. I am already spied upon by both the proprietary firmware of the OEM and by the proprietary services of Mountain View. Plus, of course, any big company I have an account on and that I use (Meta, etc.). We have already failed to protect our privacy and I don’t understand why everyone is so upset now, this is ChatControl 2 because there is a ChatControl 1 already adopted (the one about voluntarily sending data by the service providers to legal authority) and we’ve accepted it. The battle is already lost.
Well, privacy isn’t just black or white. You can also have something in between. But I know people don’t often advocate for that.
What you say sounds like resignation. I’ve talked about that lately in the context of right-wing populism growing everywhere around the world. Some people feel defeated and helpless now that 20% of people elect idiots into regional parliaments. But the numbers are probably different where you live and the recent history may be a bit different too. I don’t think everyone has to become an active warrior in the fight against injustice. But we need them, nowadays even more than before. Some things develop into the wrong direction. That’s just the way it is. But I think we shouldn’t make a retreat and let them do it without resistance.
I think our core values in the struggle for freedom date back to the Age of Enlightenment. Especially individual liberty and using our ‘ratio’ (reason) to tackle problems instead of simple truths and having a solution pushed upon us in a top-down approach.
The opposing side has changed a bit during the times. Nowadays it’s not monarchs and the church, but neo-capitalism and big tech companies containing us in “self-incurred tutelage”, to quote Kant. There is that tendency to go the ‘easy route’ in almost everyone of us. But peope are successfully fighting that struggle since the 18th century.
I can give you a few examples of what I have to hide. And what I do. I was upset about Chat Control 1, Article 17 and even back in the day when the Data Retention Directive was a thing in the years after 2006. I’m in my late 30s now and I sometimes feel myself growing older and changing.
But I would like to know your side of the story. You said: “When I was younger I thought exactly like most people here. Then I grew older and life has defeated me.”
What happened? Did something happen? Was it a specific moment that lead you to that conclusion or more of a gradual process? Maybe you have other hobbies now (you’re allowed to) and you just don’t have the time or capacity to bother about things like that? Or ‘they’ found a way to get to you and break your resistance. What would you like the world to be like if you could choose?
Yes “resignation” is the correct word. I have an answer to your question but it’s my personal story and does not apply to society in general. In few words: I fought my battles for freedom and self-determination, but it wasn’t worth it, and I got deeply deceived, to the point that I don’t care any more. I can not blame myself for having passively accepted but I didn’t end up in a better position either.
Thanks for your perspective. I’m okay with everyone having their own story and ways to deal with things. We’re all have our individual struggles to deal with. But I’m always glad to hear other people’s stories.
I don’t think I’m entitled to lecture you. Feel free to skip the following paragraphs…
Maybe we’re a bit different and diversity is a good thing. I operate a few selfhosted services like PeerTube, Matrix chat, Nextcloud and a few more for me and my friends on a small YunoHost instance. It’s not too difficult. I used to handle some sensitive information about children back in the days when I volunteered with youth work. I regularly help relatives with their computers and keep a few backups for them. I’ve occasionally moderated stuff online and deleted a few illegal pictures of violence. And I sometimes deal with stuff myself that I don’t want to become public knowledge or part of one of the regular data breaches.
I kind of need privacy available to me. And I know lots of other people who do. I keep other people’s data on an encrypted harddrive and use Linux to do my best to protect it. Not because it contains illegal stuff, but it is not of any concern to me what genre of porn they watch and I’m not going to tell their spouses, either. I’m afraid the opposing requirements to protect user-data, the GDPR which I’m required by law to enact if I want to offer independent services to other people, and on the other side something like the Data Retention Directive, the Copyright Directive and now the Chat Control will destroy independent services and strip us of the remaining diversity on the internet. The tools to detect CSAM and ContentID for copyright are only available to the big companies who already dominate everything. Lemmy would have to close, once something like that becomes mandatory. We’d need to go back to Reddit. I’d have to shut down my services for my friends, tell them I’m technically compromised and I forward every single info about them. The people who now do holiday camps would struggle to deal with the medical info and what else parents tell them. (If they wanted to do it correctly, which they should.) And they have additional requirements nowadays. Following the incidents wit the catholic church, we have additional measures in place to deal with child abuse. Or a kid just approaches someone and tells them they’re not okay otherwise. This is super super sensitive and needs to be dealt with absolute care. I’ve had phone calls for similar things because email isn’t encrypted.
It kind of only destroys everything for the honest people. Disproportionately. The criminals don’t abide by the law. They probably have the technical tools available to them to evade getting caught. And it won’t affect them too much.
Chat Control will be a disservice to the exploited children, lead to stories like this, and this, 15 year old kids getting convicted for sending nudes amongst partners consentually, have them face prosecution even if they receive it involuntarily, and do quite some damage to them in the process even if they’re deemed not guilty in the end. (I read somewhere about 80% of cases of child pornography is minors being the ‘offender’. Edit: at least 42% is minors being the ‘offender’. 1, 2) People predict the police being overwhelmed by false positives and them having their time taken away from proper investigations.
It’s just bad in any way imaginable. I don’t want everyone to become a warrior in my fights. It’s okay some people address climate change, some speak up against oppression or tackle populism. Maybe someone just isn’t a ‘fighter’ and is kind to the people around them, cares for the elderly or makes the world around them a better place and doesn’t care too much about politics. All of that is alright and noble. You do you. I’m always unsure how to react to resignation. I know how it feels. Hope you’re alright. And I sincerely wish you the best with the things you deal with.
We’re able to do something. People have fought oppression over and over again. Often times successfully. The data retention directive has deemed to be illegal and Chat Control 1 failed, too. It wouldn’t have turned out that way if not for the people who resisted and spoke up.
Yeah, I wouldn’t go as far as saying that is the point. But they’re clearly throwing them under the bus, instrumentalizing the topic and accepting the damage. Still, I think the point is general surveillance and control. Probably mixed with lobbyism by stakeholders that benefit from that kind of legislation.
I need a source for this.
I can’t find the exact article. And seems I got the numbers a bit wrong, I’m going to edit my previous article:
If you want to read more, Patrick Breyer is a member of the EU parliament and covers privacy topics.
And here is a good german article about sexting and stuff amongst minors and how we don’t have good numbers. Here they discuss some implications. This article contains an (english) open letter by scientists and researchers.
Sorry for posting so many german language articles. My perspective is kind of german. Maybe you can use the new translation feature of Firefox 117+. Or the translation feature of the browser you use. I’ve included google translate links for some of the articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument
Sorry, I can’t tell if you’re trolling or sincere. We can talk about that if you like. Privacy is a super important topic nowadays that we spend a good part of our time online and all kinds of data about our lives is stored on electronic devices.
I am a European using a Chinese phone with a my manufacturer’s customized version of Android and Google play services. I am already spied upon by both the proprietary firmware of the OEM and by the proprietary services of Mountain View. Plus, of course, any big company I have an account on and that I use (Meta, etc.). We have already failed to protect our privacy and I don’t understand why everyone is so upset now, this is ChatControl 2 because there is a ChatControl 1 already adopted (the one about voluntarily sending data by the service providers to legal authority) and we’ve accepted it. The battle is already lost.
Well, privacy isn’t just black or white. You can also have something in between. But I know people don’t often advocate for that.
What you say sounds like resignation. I’ve talked about that lately in the context of right-wing populism growing everywhere around the world. Some people feel defeated and helpless now that 20% of people elect idiots into regional parliaments. But the numbers are probably different where you live and the recent history may be a bit different too. I don’t think everyone has to become an active warrior in the fight against injustice. But we need them, nowadays even more than before. Some things develop into the wrong direction. That’s just the way it is. But I think we shouldn’t make a retreat and let them do it without resistance.
I think our core values in the struggle for freedom date back to the Age of Enlightenment. Especially individual liberty and using our ‘ratio’ (reason) to tackle problems instead of simple truths and having a solution pushed upon us in a top-down approach. The opposing side has changed a bit during the times. Nowadays it’s not monarchs and the church, but neo-capitalism and big tech companies containing us in “self-incurred tutelage”, to quote Kant. There is that tendency to go the ‘easy route’ in almost everyone of us. But peope are successfully fighting that struggle since the 18th century.
I can give you a few examples of what I have to hide. And what I do. I was upset about Chat Control 1, Article 17 and even back in the day when the Data Retention Directive was a thing in the years after 2006. I’m in my late 30s now and I sometimes feel myself growing older and changing.
But I would like to know your side of the story. You said: “When I was younger I thought exactly like most people here. Then I grew older and life has defeated me.” What happened? Did something happen? Was it a specific moment that lead you to that conclusion or more of a gradual process? Maybe you have other hobbies now (you’re allowed to) and you just don’t have the time or capacity to bother about things like that? Or ‘they’ found a way to get to you and break your resistance. What would you like the world to be like if you could choose?
Yes “resignation” is the correct word. I have an answer to your question but it’s my personal story and does not apply to society in general. In few words: I fought my battles for freedom and self-determination, but it wasn’t worth it, and I got deeply deceived, to the point that I don’t care any more. I can not blame myself for having passively accepted but I didn’t end up in a better position either.
Thanks for your perspective. I’m okay with everyone having their own story and ways to deal with things. We’re all have our individual struggles to deal with. But I’m always glad to hear other people’s stories.
I don’t think I’m entitled to lecture you. Feel free to skip the following paragraphs…
Maybe we’re a bit different and diversity is a good thing. I operate a few selfhosted services like PeerTube, Matrix chat, Nextcloud and a few more for me and my friends on a small YunoHost instance. It’s not too difficult. I used to handle some sensitive information about children back in the days when I volunteered with youth work. I regularly help relatives with their computers and keep a few backups for them. I’ve occasionally moderated stuff online and deleted a few illegal pictures of violence. And I sometimes deal with stuff myself that I don’t want to become public knowledge or part of one of the regular data breaches.
I kind of need privacy available to me. And I know lots of other people who do. I keep other people’s data on an encrypted harddrive and use Linux to do my best to protect it. Not because it contains illegal stuff, but it is not of any concern to me what genre of porn they watch and I’m not going to tell their spouses, either. I’m afraid the opposing requirements to protect user-data, the GDPR which I’m required by law to enact if I want to offer independent services to other people, and on the other side something like the Data Retention Directive, the Copyright Directive and now the Chat Control will destroy independent services and strip us of the remaining diversity on the internet. The tools to detect CSAM and ContentID for copyright are only available to the big companies who already dominate everything. Lemmy would have to close, once something like that becomes mandatory. We’d need to go back to Reddit. I’d have to shut down my services for my friends, tell them I’m technically compromised and I forward every single info about them. The people who now do holiday camps would struggle to deal with the medical info and what else parents tell them. (If they wanted to do it correctly, which they should.) And they have additional requirements nowadays. Following the incidents wit the catholic church, we have additional measures in place to deal with child abuse. Or a kid just approaches someone and tells them they’re not okay otherwise. This is super super sensitive and needs to be dealt with absolute care. I’ve had phone calls for similar things because email isn’t encrypted.
It kind of only destroys everything for the honest people. Disproportionately. The criminals don’t abide by the law. They probably have the technical tools available to them to evade getting caught. And it won’t affect them too much.
Chat Control will be a disservice to the exploited children, lead to stories like this, and this, 15 year old kids getting convicted for sending nudes amongst partners consentually, have them face prosecution even if they receive it involuntarily, and do quite some damage to them in the process even if they’re deemed not guilty in the end. (I read somewhere
about 80% of cases of child pornography is minors being the ‘offender’.Edit: at least 42% is minors being the ‘offender’. 1, 2) People predict the police being overwhelmed by false positives and them having their time taken away from proper investigations.It’s just bad in any way imaginable. I don’t want everyone to become a warrior in my fights. It’s okay some people address climate change, some speak up against oppression or tackle populism. Maybe someone just isn’t a ‘fighter’ and is kind to the people around them, cares for the elderly or makes the world around them a better place and doesn’t care too much about politics. All of that is alright and noble. You do you. I’m always unsure how to react to resignation. I know how it feels. Hope you’re alright. And I sincerely wish you the best with the things you deal with.
We’re able to do something. People have fought oppression over and over again. Often times successfully. The data retention directive has deemed to be illegal and Chat Control 1 failed, too. It wouldn’t have turned out that way if not for the people who resisted and spoke up.
Hurting youth is the whole point
I need a source for this. Please tell me this isn’t the % of prosecutions because I’ma fucking scream
Yeah, I wouldn’t go as far as saying that is the point. But they’re clearly throwing them under the bus, instrumentalizing the topic and accepting the damage. Still, I think the point is general surveillance and control. Probably mixed with lobbyism by stakeholders that benefit from that kind of legislation.
I can’t find the exact article. And seems I got the numbers a bit wrong, I’m going to edit my previous article:
The german police talks about 42% of the suspects of their solved investigations being under the age of 18 (google translate) I don’t exactly know what “aufgeklärte Fälle” means in this context. It translates to “solved cases” so probably not necessarily convicted but not just an suspicion either.
This interview talks about 54% of the suspects being minors. (google translate)
If you want to read more, Patrick Breyer is a member of the EU parliament and covers privacy topics.
And here is a good german article about sexting and stuff amongst minors and how we don’t have good numbers. Here they discuss some implications. This article contains an (english) open letter by scientists and researchers.
Sorry for posting so many german language articles. My perspective is kind of german. Maybe you can use the new translation feature of Firefox 117+. Or the translation feature of the browser you use. I’ve included google translate links for some of the articles.
I’d like if we craked down on things like this: (“In Spain, dozens of girls are reporting AI-generated nude photos of them being circulated at school”) if we want to target offenders who are minors. And as far as I know that service that enables them is still online.