Is this a fair argument in 2023 with all the options for wireless headphones/buds? I feel like it still sucks because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
It’s more about not being able to use existing high-end headphones and IEMs. It’s wasteful and expensive to replace those.
There are workarounds of course, but it’s never as nice as having a real headphone jack to work with.
I already have a good set of headphones. I don’t want to buy new ones or adapters, especially when I can just buy a device that they can plug straight into
Look, I do understand, and it took me a while to buy into the wireless buds thing, but you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
The fact is, if you want to keep your old peripherals, but upgrade your main compute device, at some point you need to accept that you’ll need an adapter.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s as a mini version of the 6.5mm jack… which was used as far back as 1878… it’s had a hell of a run, but if you weigh the pros and cons fairly, wireless as a standard has drawbacks, but is actually, ultimately an upgrade and it’s well overdue.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
My main issue with all of this is that I’m not interested in maintaining a charge for yet another wireless device.
I’m a frequent flier for work. My wired noise cancelling headphones run on a single AAA battery for 14+ hours straight. I can buy a small pack of AAA batteries at the airport in 30 seconds and get 60 hours of listening time. I don’t have to worry about putting them back in their carrying/charger case. I don’t have to worry about charging that case. If they go flat and I don’t have a spare AAA battery (the case actually has a convenient hole for a spare AAA), they still work, albeit with a noisier background. And they plug into in flight entertainment system headphone sockets. Haven’t seen a Bluetooth option on IFE systems yet.
Would I want to go jogging with my wired headphones? No. I do have a pair of bose wireless earbuds, and they’re nice. But every time I think about using them, they are flat in their charging case. I don’t want to have to keep the charging case on charge soooooo for 90 percent of my usage , the wired ones it is.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
“Another thing to charge” is a strawman. They all use C or micro today, and headphones use so little power your laptop can easily charge them. Or even your phone.
They are not functional for the time it takes to get a useful charge into them. I’ll just pause that movie and pop my buds back into their charging case for a while, it’s so convenient. So, like I said, you have to maintain their charge, alongside the other devices that have to have their charge maintained.
A lot of it has to do with BLE running constantly in the background (things like find my buds, “easy connect” features with their own management app tend to use it). If you fly like, once a week , and have a headset for flying, you need to check on its charge, as BLE will slowly grind it down to nothing while it sits in your travel bag.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
What brand were they? I bought my current set of Bose corded noise cancelling headphones in 2015 precisely because battery life in Bluetooth products was still reasonably abysmal. I’m guessing that they were one of the very first sets to come out, seeing that regular consumer Bluetooth headphones only appeared on the market in 2003.
Say I’m a fan of buds, but now I need wireless buds. No one makes ones that are made to have the battery replaced. They’re intended to be thrown away after the batteries wear out. While wired ones work forever, maybe needing a replacement cable, or to patch an existing cable… maybe.
Not to mention, audio quality. I’ll skip the buds quality themselves, bc some people claim to not be able to hear the difference… there are no bt headsets that have a mic that even approaches the quality of the old included buds from iPhones. None.
You mean the disposable nature of wired headphones with thin-as-hell 26/28 gauge wires that break if you look at them wrong?
I’ve broken more wired headsets than I’ve owned Bluetooth. I still have my ten+ year old noise-canceling bletooth headphones. I haven’t “disposed” them.
If things are disposed, it’s generally on the person, not the device.
I have multiple 2017 and older phones that still work, and get used as podcast/music players, security cameras, etc. I have a 1998 laptop I use to run Linux for testing. The batteries are toast, but so what.
Again, disposability is primarily a consumer issue, not a product one.
And I call BS on the sound quality. Given the nature of the source, and especially environments we’re in, noise is a huge factor. As for the microphone thing - the transport systems are far worse than what mics can do - “can you hear me” wouldn’t be a meme otherwise. Until that’s addressed it’s really a non-argument.
I guess I can agree that disposability is more of an individual thing, personally, I like wired headphones (Though, I don’t use them exclusively). And because of the very issue you mentioned, I normally buy headphones/earbuds that have replaceable cables. One hard-wired set got chewed by a dog, and I opened them up and replaced the cable with some soldering (Something that would be much harder on hardwired earbuds).
With regard to the phones, the laptops, etc… those have ways of using them with dead batteries, and often can have their batteries replaced.
This is the key difference with wireless earbuds (particularly earbuds much more so than wireless headphones in general). Wireless earbuds are extremely difficult to replace batteries on, if not literally impossible, and because of the very small capacity of the batteries, they tend to be charge cycled more and will chemically age faster.
My first Airpods lasted me a good 2 years of pretty heavy use, but towards the end the battery life was inconsistent. One bud was virtually useless, it died so fast, and I took the pair to apple to see what they might be able to do. They did me the favor of charging me the replacement cost of a single bud, but then replaced both buds and case (~$60). Not horrible, but definitely not ideal.
Mics, the bluetooth transport used for mics (two-way-SBC vs other enhanced codecs for one-way audio like AAC/AptX) is the horrible limiting factor. The physical capsules are definitely adequate, but it doesn’t matter if the audio can’t be sent to the phone at quality. I think you might have been referring to the cellular transport, but that really depends on how you’re making the call. VOIP Calls, VoLTE, etc are capable of very high quality audio, given a good source, which bt sbc mics are not. During covid we had people using the “best bluetooth mics” (Airpods pros) on their zoom calls and they sounded like CRAP. Plug in a cheap trusty pair of wired EarPods… crystal clear. Even the tiktok kids get that mic quality thing, thats why so many are using the mic from EarPods.
Anyway, no ill will. Kudos on the reusing of old tech… I often intend to, but I’ve had a habit of holding on to aging tech until its of virtually no use to anyone. So instead, lately, I’ve just been refurbishing things that I can and donating/giving them away.
Again, everything is disposable, nothing lasts indefinitely (and I keep everything much longer than most people. My cars last 10-20 years).
Just because your headphone battery fails before some other internal component, doesn’t change this. I’ve had plenty of devices fail. Electronics are no different than batteries (which are electronic devices).
With wired headphones (all headphones actually) the cones age - I can’t imagine what most cones look like after 10 years of exposure to atmospheric oxygen and heat/cooling cycles. I seriously doubt any of them reproduce sound anything like when new.
You’re arguing as if wireless audio is somehow better as ps2, etc was replaced by something better.
It’s simply not. You either buy a dumbass dongle or have to charge yet another thing. Along with that you can’t charge and listen to music at the same time without aforementioned dumb wireless ear buds.
It was a money grab, plain and simple. The 3.5 Jack is still monumentally viable and an asset.
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks. The inconvenience of having to charge the buds is not actually as bad as you’re making it out to be. You can charge and listen if you consider charging the case as still being charging the whole unit.
The convenience of not having to deal with the damm cables themselves outweighs the inconvenience of needing to occasionally charge them for me, and clearly I’m not alone.
Someone smarter than me can talk about audio quality over wireless, but when we’re talking about streaming music from Spotify, it’s moot anyway.
The fact is, for the vast majority of mobile users, wireless is an upgrade over wired.
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks.
You’re right, it is subjective. The point is, you don’t have to choose. You can have both and sacrifice nothing. But what you want is simply for everyone else to have fewer options.
you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
You could but it would be a shit argument because that was a very logical and objective improvement and this is not.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s
That is a pro, not a con. Because it means my headphones and other devices, regardless of how old, will still work just fine on brand new devices. Meanwhile your shitpod headphones will have to be thrown away after a year and you have to lick Tim Cook’s boots to buy another pair.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
And all of them come with drawbacks, and having a headphone jack comes with none.
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
That is a pro, not a con
Never said it was a con, nor did I mean to imply that jacks are obsolete overall, only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity. Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
lick Tim Cook’s boots
Lol, personally I prefer the taste of Han Jong-hee or Kenichiro Yoshida’s boots
jack comes with none.
Respectfully, this is rose tinted glasses talking. Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
Open case
Insert buds into ears and wait for “Bluetooth connected”
Tap left bud
Music plays.
Compare that to
Pull out buds
Untangle cord
Pull out phone
Fumble jack into the microphone hole for 2 minutes
Look at device, and insert jack into correct hole.
Unlock phone
Open music app of choice
Hit play
Music plays
With wireless buds, I don’t even have to know exactly where my phone is. To say nothing of having to carry it around with me which, if you’re doing housework, or a workout can be a pain.
Also, anyone who’s ever had buds forcibly ripped from their ears because they’ve dropped their phone will tell you:
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
I replied to “your other comment”.
only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
You’re missing the point. Pros and cons of each don’t matter because you don’t have to choose. You can have both. We had both, for decades. You can continue using whatever workflow you want. The existence of a headphone jack does not stop you from continuing to use Bluetooth. I was obviously referring to the cons of having the option of choosing wired.
I meant the one made elsewhere in this thread where I explain why I don’t think it’s a shit argument. I think the wireless is a legitimate upgrade over wired when we’re talking about a mobile phone.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format, and so aren’t taking advantage of that extra fidelity anyway. This is admittedly an area I’m not strong in, so I could well be wrong, but I don’t think there’s any difference between wired and wireless when the source is Spotify.
you don’t have to choose.
Alright, this is fair. It would be great to keep the option for both. However, I don’t think it’s fair to knock Fairphone for not offering this option though, particularly because it takes space on the pcb and is an extra component cost (yes, a small one, I admit)
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format
Some people do, though.
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
It’s absolutely fair because there’s no other legitimate explanation for removing it while simultaneously introducing your brand new wireless headphones. Just like there was no other legitimate explanation when Apple or Google or Samsung did it.
Fairphone’s entire brand is built around “sustainability” and they just shit all over it, so people are rightfully disappointed.
Wired headphones will pretty much last for an eternity, and while you can argue the merits of Bluetooth headphones, sustainability is absolutely not one of them.
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Raycons are trash. Like they’re literally e-waste for how bad they are
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
At that point you’re getting a very specific phone for a very specific purpose. It’s not the rule but the exception. So it doesn’t apply as a reason for any other phone. You’ve argued why the LG has a 3.5mm jack, not why Fairphone should have a 3.5mm jack. I’d also be curious as to how powerfully it can even drive headphones at that point. It must also have a stronger amplifier than most phones too. It’d be meaningless without it. What’s the point of high fidelity if it can’t drive headphones that can utilize it.
This is all getting away from the purpose of the Fairphone. It’s not a dedicated music player. It’s not advertising high fidelity music, psrticyij relation to other phones. I don’t think anyone is calling that LG phone “green” either.
Congratulations to anyone who can think of an edge case that wouldn’t apply to the Fairphone. Might as well mention a tensor chip not being in the Fairphone.
Is this a fair argument in 2023 with all the options for wireless headphones/buds? I feel like it still sucks because you can’t use your dollar store wired sets, but there are enough cheap raycon clones out now that it’s hardly a guaranteed secondary sale at this point.
It’s more about not being able to use existing high-end headphones and IEMs. It’s wasteful and expensive to replace those.
There are workarounds of course, but it’s never as nice as having a real headphone jack to work with.
I already have a good set of headphones. I don’t want to buy new ones or adapters, especially when I can just buy a device that they can plug straight into
Look, I do understand, and it took me a while to buy into the wireless buds thing, but you could have made the same argument for PS/2 mouse and keyboards, or anything using mini, and then later, micro USB.
The fact is, if you want to keep your old peripherals, but upgrade your main compute device, at some point you need to accept that you’ll need an adapter.
The 3.5mm jack was first introduced in the 1950s as a mini version of the 6.5mm jack… which was used as far back as 1878… it’s had a hell of a run, but if you weigh the pros and cons fairly, wireless as a standard has drawbacks, but is actually, ultimately an upgrade and it’s well overdue.
I just think there are enough wireless options (and adapters) available now that it’s not fair to knock fairphone for this decision anymore.
My main issue with all of this is that I’m not interested in maintaining a charge for yet another wireless device.
I’m a frequent flier for work. My wired noise cancelling headphones run on a single AAA battery for 14+ hours straight. I can buy a small pack of AAA batteries at the airport in 30 seconds and get 60 hours of listening time. I don’t have to worry about putting them back in their carrying/charger case. I don’t have to worry about charging that case. If they go flat and I don’t have a spare AAA battery (the case actually has a convenient hole for a spare AAA), they still work, albeit with a noisier background. And they plug into in flight entertainment system headphone sockets. Haven’t seen a Bluetooth option on IFE systems yet.
Would I want to go jogging with my wired headphones? No. I do have a pair of bose wireless earbuds, and they’re nice. But every time I think about using them, they are flat in their charging case. I don’t want to have to keep the charging case on charge soooooo for 90 percent of my usage , the wired ones it is.
My noise-canceling, Bluetooth headphones in 2004 ran for 2 days, no problem (back when I was flying for work all the time).
“Another thing to charge” is a strawman. They all use C or micro today, and headphones use so little power your laptop can easily charge them. Or even your phone.
They are not functional for the time it takes to get a useful charge into them. I’ll just pause that movie and pop my buds back into their charging case for a while, it’s so convenient. So, like I said, you have to maintain their charge, alongside the other devices that have to have their charge maintained.
A lot of it has to do with BLE running constantly in the background (things like find my buds, “easy connect” features with their own management app tend to use it). If you fly like, once a week , and have a headset for flying, you need to check on its charge, as BLE will slowly grind it down to nothing while it sits in your travel bag.
What brand were they? I bought my current set of Bose corded noise cancelling headphones in 2015 precisely because battery life in Bluetooth products was still reasonably abysmal. I’m guessing that they were one of the very first sets to come out, seeing that regular consumer Bluetooth headphones only appeared on the market in 2003.
What about their typically disposable nature?
Say I’m a fan of buds, but now I need wireless buds. No one makes ones that are made to have the battery replaced. They’re intended to be thrown away after the batteries wear out. While wired ones work forever, maybe needing a replacement cable, or to patch an existing cable… maybe.
Not to mention, audio quality. I’ll skip the buds quality themselves, bc some people claim to not be able to hear the difference… there are no bt headsets that have a mic that even approaches the quality of the old included buds from iPhones. None.
You mean the disposable nature of wired headphones with thin-as-hell 26/28 gauge wires that break if you look at them wrong?
I’ve broken more wired headsets than I’ve owned Bluetooth. I still have my ten+ year old noise-canceling bletooth headphones. I haven’t “disposed” them.
If things are disposed, it’s generally on the person, not the device.
I have multiple 2017 and older phones that still work, and get used as podcast/music players, security cameras, etc. I have a 1998 laptop I use to run Linux for testing. The batteries are toast, but so what.
Again, disposability is primarily a consumer issue, not a product one.
And I call BS on the sound quality. Given the nature of the source, and especially environments we’re in, noise is a huge factor. As for the microphone thing - the transport systems are far worse than what mics can do - “can you hear me” wouldn’t be a meme otherwise. Until that’s addressed it’s really a non-argument.
I guess I can agree that disposability is more of an individual thing, personally, I like wired headphones (Though, I don’t use them exclusively). And because of the very issue you mentioned, I normally buy headphones/earbuds that have replaceable cables. One hard-wired set got chewed by a dog, and I opened them up and replaced the cable with some soldering (Something that would be much harder on hardwired earbuds).
With regard to the phones, the laptops, etc… those have ways of using them with dead batteries, and often can have their batteries replaced.
This is the key difference with wireless earbuds (particularly earbuds much more so than wireless headphones in general). Wireless earbuds are extremely difficult to replace batteries on, if not literally impossible, and because of the very small capacity of the batteries, they tend to be charge cycled more and will chemically age faster.
My first Airpods lasted me a good 2 years of pretty heavy use, but towards the end the battery life was inconsistent. One bud was virtually useless, it died so fast, and I took the pair to apple to see what they might be able to do. They did me the favor of charging me the replacement cost of a single bud, but then replaced both buds and case (~$60). Not horrible, but definitely not ideal.
Mics, the bluetooth transport used for mics (two-way-SBC vs other enhanced codecs for one-way audio like AAC/AptX) is the horrible limiting factor. The physical capsules are definitely adequate, but it doesn’t matter if the audio can’t be sent to the phone at quality. I think you might have been referring to the cellular transport, but that really depends on how you’re making the call. VOIP Calls, VoLTE, etc are capable of very high quality audio, given a good source, which bt sbc mics are not. During covid we had people using the “best bluetooth mics” (Airpods pros) on their zoom calls and they sounded like CRAP. Plug in a cheap trusty pair of wired EarPods… crystal clear. Even the tiktok kids get that mic quality thing, thats why so many are using the mic from EarPods.
Anyway, no ill will. Kudos on the reusing of old tech… I often intend to, but I’ve had a habit of holding on to aging tech until its of virtually no use to anyone. So instead, lately, I’ve just been refurbishing things that I can and donating/giving them away.
Again, everything is disposable, nothing lasts indefinitely (and I keep everything much longer than most people. My cars last 10-20 years).
Just because your headphone battery fails before some other internal component, doesn’t change this. I’ve had plenty of devices fail. Electronics are no different than batteries (which are electronic devices).
With wired headphones (all headphones actually) the cones age - I can’t imagine what most cones look like after 10 years of exposure to atmospheric oxygen and heat/cooling cycles. I seriously doubt any of them reproduce sound anything like when new.
You’re arguing as if wireless audio is somehow better as ps2, etc was replaced by something better.
It’s simply not. You either buy a dumbass dongle or have to charge yet another thing. Along with that you can’t charge and listen to music at the same time without aforementioned dumb wireless ear buds.
It was a money grab, plain and simple. The 3.5 Jack is still monumentally viable and an asset.
Ye, well, that’s just, like, your opinion man…
But seriously, that highly subjective. I’ll take wireless over wired any day thanks. The inconvenience of having to charge the buds is not actually as bad as you’re making it out to be. You can charge and listen if you consider charging the case as still being charging the whole unit.
The convenience of not having to deal with the damm cables themselves outweighs the inconvenience of needing to occasionally charge them for me, and clearly I’m not alone.
Someone smarter than me can talk about audio quality over wireless, but when we’re talking about streaming music from Spotify, it’s moot anyway.
The fact is, for the vast majority of mobile users, wireless is an upgrade over wired.
You’re right, it is subjective. The point is, you don’t have to choose. You can have both and sacrifice nothing. But what you want is simply for everyone else to have fewer options.
Well that’s great because even if they include a jack you guys can all still have that.
You could but it would be a shit argument because that was a very logical and objective improvement and this is not.
That is a pro, not a con. Because it means my headphones and other devices, regardless of how old, will still work just fine on brand new devices. Meanwhile your shitpod headphones will have to be thrown away after a year and you have to lick Tim Cook’s boots to buy another pair.
And all of them come with drawbacks, and having a headphone jack comes with none.
This is fundamentally where we disagree. See my other comment
Never said it was a con, nor did I mean to imply that jacks are obsolete overall, only that it’s a valid move to not include them on a device that is primarily used to stream audio and thus doesn’t need the extra fidelity. Unless you want to try and tell me that Joe Public should be lugging around gigabytes of flac files?
Lol, personally I prefer the taste of Han Jong-hee or Kenichiro Yoshida’s boots
Respectfully, this is rose tinted glasses talking. Do you know what my wireless buds workflow is?
Compare that to
With wireless buds, I don’t even have to know exactly where my phone is. To say nothing of having to carry it around with me which, if you’re doing housework, or a workout can be a pain.
Also, anyone who’s ever had buds forcibly ripped from their ears because they’ve dropped their phone will tell you:
Wired buds ALSO have drawbacks
I replied to “your other comment”.
The fidelity is one of many many pros we have listed
I don’t understand what this has to do with anything.
You’re missing the point. Pros and cons of each don’t matter because you don’t have to choose. You can have both. We had both, for decades. You can continue using whatever workflow you want. The existence of a headphone jack does not stop you from continuing to use Bluetooth. I was obviously referring to the cons of having the option of choosing wired.
I meant the one made elsewhere in this thread where I explain why I don’t think it’s a shit argument. I think the wireless is a legitimate upgrade over wired when we’re talking about a mobile phone.
I’m trying to point out that your “pro” of better fidelity doesn’t mean anything in a space where people aren’t using a lossless format, and so aren’t taking advantage of that extra fidelity anyway. This is admittedly an area I’m not strong in, so I could well be wrong, but I don’t think there’s any difference between wired and wireless when the source is Spotify.
Alright, this is fair. It would be great to keep the option for both. However, I don’t think it’s fair to knock Fairphone for not offering this option though, particularly because it takes space on the pcb and is an extra component cost (yes, a small one, I admit)
People are calling it a money grab move to not include a headphone jack, and I just don’t think that’s fair.
Some people do, though.
It’s absolutely fair because there’s no other legitimate explanation for removing it while simultaneously introducing your brand new wireless headphones. Just like there was no other legitimate explanation when Apple or Google or Samsung did it.
Fairphone’s entire brand is built around “sustainability” and they just shit all over it, so people are rightfully disappointed.
Wired headphones will pretty much last for an eternity, and while you can argue the merits of Bluetooth headphones, sustainability is absolutely not one of them.
Tell me a pair of wireless headphones that are as good and around the same price as the moondrop Aria’s with extremely low latency (so they can be used for rhythm games) and can buy a replacement case for not too much.
Also Raycons are trash. Like they’re literally e-waste for how bad they are
Also Bluetooth’s audio quality is terrible when also using the microphone at the same time. So you can’t really make a call and enjoy listening to music at the same time
Who is listening to music on the same headset while making a phone call?
And why use your phone’s onboard DAC at that point if you want quality headphones?
Some phones (LG) did actually come with a HQ DAC.
At that point you’re getting a very specific phone for a very specific purpose. It’s not the rule but the exception. So it doesn’t apply as a reason for any other phone. You’ve argued why the LG has a 3.5mm jack, not why Fairphone should have a 3.5mm jack. I’d also be curious as to how powerfully it can even drive headphones at that point. It must also have a stronger amplifier than most phones too. It’d be meaningless without it. What’s the point of high fidelity if it can’t drive headphones that can utilize it.
This is all getting away from the purpose of the Fairphone. It’s not a dedicated music player. It’s not advertising high fidelity music, psrticyij relation to other phones. I don’t think anyone is calling that LG phone “green” either.
Congratulations to anyone who can think of an edge case that wouldn’t apply to the Fairphone. Might as well mention a tensor chip not being in the Fairphone.