“I can tell you that the people that are doing it aren’t the people who are coming here because they’re looking for a sandwich because they’re hungry,” said Ravi Ramberran, “It’s the people who are not afraid of consequences period.”
In the wake of the increase in dine and dashers, Ramberran said his restaurant has ramped up how they deal with it.
“We blast them on Facebook, we hold them, we make them wait for the cops…We do what’s in our power to do.”
If it’s becoming a big issue, why not ask people to put a credit card on deposit when they sit down?
“The Winnipeg Police Service said it does not track dine and dash incidents, but does say if there are threats or violence restaurants should call the police.”
Wait? They’re not supposed to call the police when they’ve been robbed? Theft of service is a crime is it not? If the police aren’t doing anything that’s the problem
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When was the last time you saw a police officer actually doing police work? 9 times out of 10 there’s just a bunch of cruisers in a parking lot chatting, but if you call 911 they say that all of their officers are busy already.
They’re not supposed to call the police when they’ve been robbed? Theft of service is a crime is it not? If the police aren’t doing anything that’s the problem
I’m speculating here, but I guess it boils down to the amount of money involved combined with the absence of threats or violence.
In general it makes little sense to spend resources investigating a non-indictable offense where the perpetrator is unlikely to be found in the first place and even if they are found the cost of even finding and processing then is much higher than the monetary damage they caused.
Sure but if stealing less then $100 becomes defacto legal, then we have a much bigger problem, society collapses in a million $100 thefts
But it already is and higher then that.
If it’s becoming a big issue, why not ask people to put a credit card on deposit when they sit down?
Restaurants that see you pay after the event are really in the experience business. Putting a card down takes away from the experience.
That’s not a problem, as such, when all restaurants are doing it, but it’s hard to go first as it compels customers to go elsewhere. Which you especially can’t afford when dine-and-dashers are already hurting you.
It will likely go that way eventually. But it’s a big risk and will no doubt claim some casualties when it comes.
I would have no problem paying early. It would make going out for food when you have limited time better because you can just walk out whenever.
“I’m sick of the crime!” The wage thieves cried.
It’s not the employees stealing the money back
It’s the owners…
Yes, as well as entitled randos
Having the entire system devolve into complete anarchy is not the answer
It’s almost like refusing to address the cost of living crisis has victims. Can you believe it?
From the actual post.
“I can tell you that the people that are doing it aren’t the people who are coming here because they’re looking for a sandwich because they’re hungry,”
Thing is, you’re not wrong either. The cost of living crisis does have victims, but the sort of people doing dine and dash are rarely those victims.
If anything they make it worse for people on low income jobs like waiting staff. Dine and dash is like the opposite of leaving a tip. It’s like reaching into an underpaid service workers pocket and pulling the money out.
It’s tricky, especially if we want to stay non-judgemental, but there does seem to be a difference between people trying to steal bread and flour from a supermarket and folk sitting down to a three course and running without paying, and I suspect that difference might be one of class and privilege rather than not.
Feels like an effective way of breeding distrust in each other
It does feel like we’re in a spiral of degeneration of the social contract. Of course that feeling, if it isn’t just an internet bubble thing, would be both symptom and cause so observe it with caution and distrust any who claim it exists.
Well said. Personally, I put a reckless amount of faith in those around me. Being the change I want to see.
I don’t think its that. I think selfish attitudes are rampant today and people today care more about what they can do for themselves regardless who gets hurt. Everybody is an other who doesn’t matter if they suffer consequences of someone else’s actions
So “A plague of selfishness”? Really?
I wouldn’t call it a plague of selfishness.
Society has certainly stopped looking fondly on those who go out of their way to help others though. But it goes further than that if you expend effort on something you don’t have to, you are looked at as having made a mistake.
One solution would be to pay at the time that you order, but then I’d be horrified at the concept of being asked to tip BEFORE your meal, in which case tipping switches from being mild/borderline extortion to being full-on blatant extortion. So, credit card for deposit would be better, like someone else suggested.
Or, if the point of this isn’t to ask for solutions but to complain about ‘people getting worse’… There’s always been shit-heads and there’s always going to be shit-heads out there. Maybe the percentages are shifting, but if so it’s likely the not-so-new problem of cities growing bigger and feeling less like a community, and if someone doesn’t feel like they have any connection or responsibility to the people that live around them, then this and countless other crimes and social breakdown tend to result. Maybe the nature of the internet and media etc. is making that worse, but if so it’s still only a different flavour to the old and ongoing task of maintaining social cohesion one generation to the next. I admit, some days I almost want to lose faith in that, but it’s gonna take more than an increase in petty theft to do it today.
How about ban tipping and just increase wages+benefits? Such an easy solution you found.
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You’re almost there. You’re almost at the answer.
Urgh… ehm… we should… we should tip cashiers and self-checkouts as well?
That’s the answer, right?
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Just don’t ask for tips, seems like you found a solution for 2 problems
Paying before is a possible solition, but it’s a double-edged sword for restaurants.
I would imagine that the sticker shock would lead to people spending less on their overpriced food and drinks, ignoring the outrageous tip on top of that.
I’d lose my appetite 😂
Also how do you handle things that pop up mid meal? Like a second beer/cocktail with your meal.
I think a deposit when you sit down makes the most sense. If paying by card, then just keep their card on file for the duration of the meal, if cash, then do a small deposit per person - less than the cost of the meal, but enough to make dining and dashing really not worth the risk/effort.
Not exactly perfect, but itd work
They’d probably do it like gas stations… put a $200+ hold on the card, then actually charge the amount you pumped.
Fair point, makes cash customers trickier, but for better or worse, more and more people don’t use cash anyways, so that might be a non issue
I would imagine that the sticker shock would lead to people spending less on their overpriced food and drinks
I’m not sure sticker shock affects people when it comes to food. Maybe because they are going to buy it no matter what.
Look at the cost of cooking at home. The cost of an average property in Canada’s metros is around $1,000 per square foot. An average kitchen is 100 square feet.
If you buy a house at the age of 30, you might use it for, what, 50 years? It’s not hard to get 5% interest these days, so if you stuck that amount in the bank instead you would have $1.1 M after 50 years. In other words, it costs $60 per day just to have an idle kitchen in your home.
Heaven forbid you actually use it. The average meal takes around 30 minutes to make and cleanup. The average wage is around $30 per hour. If we assume three meals per day, that’s $45 spent. We’re up to $105 per day and we still don’t have any food.
The average person spends $200 per month on groceries. So that brings us up to $111 per day, or nearly $40 per meal. Hope you are a good cook! And I didn’t bother even getting into other costs like electricity, maintenance, etc. associated with owning and operating a kitchen. Doesn’t phase people one bit.
It is true that you can improve upon those numbers if you have a family, but one-person households are the predominant household type in Canada (and increasingly).
You’d never convince me that eating at a restaurant is more economical and cooking at home, even with the math you present.
I mean, when it costs $5 to make pasta for four people at home, or $20 per plate at some cheap diner down the street, I’m not sure I’d want to pile on desert and drinks after seeing the bill before I eat.
In other words, it costs $60 per day just to have an idle kitchen in your home.
An idle kitchen in the home is a sin, especially if money is a factor. But kitchens aren’t really used 24/7. Even an hour of kitchen time per day is going to save you money and time vs multiple restaurant meals, coffee runs, or convenience store snacks.
The average meal takes around 30 minutes to make and cleanup. The average wage is around $30 per hour. If we assume three meals per day, that’s $45 spent. We’re up to $105 per day and we still don’t have any food.
Nah. Breakfast for most people might involve pouring milk into cereal. 10 seconds at most.
Lunch is often <5 minutes to prepare, add an extra minute if you’re making it for multiple people.
Dinner can take 30 minutes, if you want it to. But in less than 30 minutes of actual kitchen time, you could have had your pressure cooker making meals for the week. You could have made a wonderful cappuccino for you and your partner, and had fresh bread going ready while you did something else.
Tim Hortons 3 x a day? Make it in minutes at home using pennies worth of beans.
Any typical restaurant meal would at a minimum $25 ($10 for lunch) + the time and gas to get there to order it, eat it, then come home. Do that 6x a day (3 meals + snacks) for X number of people in the home, and you’d literally need another income just to feed your family restaurant meals.
It is true that you can improve upon those numbers if you have a family, but one-person households are the predominant household type in Canada.
I’d argue that one person can be even easier to cook for, since a meal for four can feel one person four times. And a single person doesn’t have to cater to multiple preferences.
The reality is that restaurants are among the most expensive, unnecessary things that most Canadians indulge in. In a time when people are concerned about housing affordability, job insecurity, and the cost of food, it’s almost silly to try to justify eating out these days.
You’d never convince me that eating at a restaurant is more economical and cooking at home
I wouldn’t dream of it. I couldn’t care less about what you think. You are supposed to convince me that cooking at home is more economical.
But kitchens aren’t really used 24/7.
And? The cost is the same no matter how much you use it. We call these fixed costs. They are as true in a commercial kitchen as a residential kitchen. They are, by far, the largest cost in both cases.
Any typical restaurant meal would at a minimum $25
Okay, even if we say three meals at that price, your cost is only $15 - or $5 per meal. Remember, you kept $60 in your pocket from not owning a kitchen: 75 - 60 = 15.
A $25 breakfast sounds pretty swanky, though.
Tim Hortons 3 x a day?
So, like, maybe $30 gross cost – or $30 profit each day (60 - 30 = 30)! Now you’re getting paid to eat!
I’d argue that one person can be even easier to cook for
Easier, but you lose economies of scale. Those fix costs are the same either way, so the more people you can feed, the lesser the cost per person. That $60 becomes $30 per person if you are feeding two.
This is exactly how restaurants are able to feed you for so much less. Each time they feed another customer, the fixed costs divided by each mouth fed goes down. Instead of charging you that $60 to recoup their cost, they only charge you $60 / number of customers.
You are supposed to convince me that cooking at home is more economical.
If you want to set aside some criteria, then I’d be game. Are you including transportation costs per restaurant trip? “Lost wages” in the time it takes to go and then wait for your meal? Delivery fees? Etc.? If so, set out the parameters.
And? The cost is the same no matter how much you use it. We call these fixed costs. They are as true in a commercial kitchen as a residential kitchen. They are, by far, the largest cost in both cases.
You look at having a kitchen as a loss, while someone else would see it as a bonus for the place you’re paying for to have a roof over your head. Even without a kitchen you could make meals in your bedroom using a simple pressure cooker, or more if you want to expand on your options.
So, if you want to go that route, a kitchen is zero cost, because you can use whatever room you sleep in.
Okay, even if we say three meals at that price, your cost is only $15 - or $5 per meal. Remember, you kept $60 in your pocket from not owning a kitchen: 75 - 60 = 15.
Again, zero cost kitchen per above. You’d be overspending far more than $60 per day, and you’re getting a (likely) unhealthy meal.
So, like, maybe $30 gross cost – or $30 profit each day (60 - 30 = 30)! Now you’re getting paid to eat!
Per above, you’re spending specifically more!
Easier, but you lose economies of scale. Those fix costs are the same either way, so the more people you can feed, the lesser the cost per person. That $60 becomes $30 per person if you are feeding two.
No, because rather than making many meals for many people, you’re making many meals for one. No added cost necessary.
This is exactly how restaurants are able to feed you for so much less.
Yeah, $20 pasta, $15 sandwich, $6 lattes, $8 for home fries, $3 for pop… much less than what? A banquet wedding dinner? LOL
Maybe do it like gas stations where you pre-auth $200 or $300 then at the end they just charge you for what you end up using.
I.e. pre-auth $200 and then at the end of your meal, get the bill for $100, put down a 15% tip, they only charge your card for $115 afterwards.
Just have tables put a card down to open a tab, like standing at a bar
I am more than willing to pay when I order but I will not be tipping then.
You can always tip after. Tips are between you and the server anyway. The business is not part of that transaction.
You can always tip after. Tips are between you and the server anyway. The business is not part of that transaction.
Not true in many places. Lots of restaurants pool all the tips, then distribute them to all staff, sometimes even owners and managers.
Then don’t go out to restaurants. Don’t tip on bad service, but if you had good service, you not tipping is just you punishing the server for doing their job. They pay out to the kitchen and bar on every table, regardless if you tip, so when you don’t tip, your server has to pay out of pocket to serve you. Don’t care? Why don’t you tell that server working 2 jobs to “just quit”. You don’t need to go out to eat. They do need to pay their bills. Stop patronizing an industry that exploits its workers, and then make it the worker’s problems.
This is the problem.
Framing this as the consumer doing something wrong and withholding wages from the servers is total bullshit.
The real fault is the industry underpaying their staff and leaving it up to the consumers to subsidize a significant portion of their income.
I’m not sure why people say it is on the industry. It’s clearly driven by customer preferences. Try being a server some time and reject any tips that come your way. The customers will not be too thrilled.
In fact, the restaurant business would be much better served by charging a higher price, even if that also means paying the workers more, as they can skim more profit off the top. They have no legal entitlement to tip money. That is a huge opportunity loss.
Remember, restaurants – at least the kind where you pay after the event – aren’t really in the business of food. They are in the experience business. They provide an experience that allows you to feel “like a king” for an hour or two, and throwing some coins at the “poor servants” to show how “rich and powerful” you are is part of that experience.
Try being a server some time and reject any tips that come your way. The customers will not be too thrilled.
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting tips should be banned. It’s just that tips shouldn’t be expected from each customer. Someone working at any given fast food restaurant (not to mention other low level service jobs) is working just as hard as a server at a sit down restaurant for the same pay. Why should I be expected to tip one and not the other? Also, why is 15-20% considered a proper tip? 10% shouldn’t be treated like it’s an insult.
Why should I be expected to tip one and not the other?
If you want get into the long history, alcohol service is unique in that it places liability on the server rather than the business. This means that they are legally their own independent agent and as such are free to charge their own rates. The tip separates what was sold by the restaurant and what was sold by the server. You will notice that any old laws on the books about tipping refer specifically to alcohol.
This is why it has been traditionally customary to tip in establishments that sell alcohol, but not places that just sell hamburgers. But these days I’m pretty sure everyone will ask you for a tip and a lot of those old laws have been stricken from the books. It is of little applicability these days. Now, it’s mostly just because people enjoy tipping.
Also, why is 15-20% considered a proper tip?
Because that is what the market will bear.
10% shouldn’t be treated like it’s an insult.
So what if it is an insult? I think most everyone feels a little insulted when someone says “no” to their offer. But are you going to accept every telemarking scam and vacuum salesman just because you are afraid you are going to hurt their feelings?
Lots of people get pleasure from tipping. And if a server can provide that service to them, great. If that is not you, just don’t pay for the service. You can’t win every customer, as they say.
The industry decides that profits come before everything else. Large restaurant corporations could easily charge the same amount, pay workers more (with the add on effect of customers saving money by not having to tip), and take a hit to profits. Unfortunately, our legal system doesn’t punish businesses for not paying workers a livable wage or for using tips to deceptively price goods to overcharge consumers. Instead, it’s illegal to not abide by fiduciary duty in the pursuit of infinite profits. Due to this, I can’t see the tipping culture going away anytime soon. It isn’t the consumers who are driving this, it’s the restaurant industry.
The industry decides that profits come before everything else.
Exactly. So why do you think they are happy to let their margins go out the door?
A business is always incentivized to get paid as much as possible. Tips, however, are not paid to the business. They are paid directly to the workers. This means an, often substantial, loss in potential revenue for the business and thus is a huge loss in opportunity for the business.
Again, what business willingly turns revenue away? The answer is no business willingly turns revenue away. Where did you even get the idea otherwise?
Businesses prefer tipping because they don’t need to provide benefits or scheduling for their employees. When they are slow, they aren’t paying for all the staff hanging around. When it is busy, they still aren’t paying their staff, but they have even more because people want to work for tips when it is busy. And when their employees act up, the customers are the ones who deal with it.
Tips let businesses staff for peanuts while punishing their employees with terrible schedules so they quit instead of being fired and getting unemployment.
Businesses love tipping culture.
I agree 100% especially given the behaviors that our current economic system incentivizes. I was simply responding to what you said about consumers preferences driving tipping culture instead of the industry.
Although consumers in North America feel comfortable and good about tipping, this tradition primarily stems from the push to increase profits by underpaying workers and offsetting their deserved pay with the “merit” based tipping system. It’s a clever trick that feeds into the idea that “the harder your work, the more you get paid”.
I don’t think this system will change unless profit is removed as the main factor in driving a business. Not to mention our legal system discourages and even prosecutes those who attempt to undermine the growth of a company against shareholder interests.
The only places this works is in privately owned businesses where the people who run it have the authority to prioritize paying employees over profits. However, this opens the door for businesses to reduce prices by cutting wages which undercuts the private business used in this example and could lead them to go out of business.
This example is basically to state that in order to eliminate the tipping culture and give workers the pay they deserve, the entire industry needs to change. One private company cannot be solely responsible for this change since another can come in and eliminate them. Now do I think this will happen? NO!
I was simply responding to what you said about consumers preferences driving tipping culture instead of the industry.
Yes, that’s right. That’s the topic at hand.
This example is basically to state that in order to eliminate the tipping culture and give workers the pay they deserve, the entire industry needs to change.
The only thing that will eliminate it is customers losing their desire to tip. They are under no obligation to. They do so because they want to! They could literally end it right now. But why should they? They clearly derive enjoyment from it, as found out in that tip rejection experiment.
Like you said, we 100% agree that the business would be better off charging more for the service (more revenue) instead of seeing the transaction split between the business and the workers (less revenue). There is no question that restaurant businesses, if it were up to them, would prefer to charge more for the plate over having tips. That gives them greater cashflow to work with and increased profitability on the margins.
But you can’t get blood from a stone. If the customer wants to split the transaction between the business and the workers, there isn’t much a business can do beyond saying “no soup for you” – but that’s even less profitable than accepting a split transaction. Restaurants are forced to begrudgingly accept (if they want to be profitable).
None of what you said justifies paying these employees less because consumers are expected to give them money above and beyond the products/services that were purchased.
Wait, really? if I don’t tip on a meal the server has to then take money from their wages for the night and give it to the kitchen and bar? that doesn’t seem right to me.
Absolutely not. Tips are optional.
Just incease the mimimum tip!
/s
