I think a case could have been made in the past, but I think it is pretty clear it is not capitalist based on the fact that:
they execute corrupt businessmen and such, open hostility and control of major corporative class members.
State-owned Enterprises(SOEs) are a huge part of the economy. These enterprises exist as an arm of the state and function within the global capitalist ideological context. I firmly believe that if SOEs existed without a corporative or business structure, and strictly as a nationalized corporation, they would be subject to major sanctions by the imperial core.
their major achievements in social equity, and eradicating extreme poverty.
The open eradication of huge sectors like the private tutoring business which was pretty much abolished overnight because it was considered exploitative of parents and children.
Conclusion: China has had to adopt capitalist structures in order to survive within a world that would have ruthlessly crushed it otherwise. To that extent, China has consistently used such structures in a practical purpose and has not shown signs of wavering in any sense away from socialism. In fact, China has been enhancing socialist structures of economic control and political practice. Even going so far as to encourage the development of Marxist parties and theory around the world. Therefore it is not capitalist. I would argue that their development is an existential threat to capitalist ideology as a brutal and outdated form of organizing society, governments and economies.
I forgot to add that this is what I have observed and studied as an outsider. Please feel free to correct me or add any details that I have missed. I also forgot to mention that their 95% approval rate of the CPC is consistent with the idea that the party should serve the people and not the bourgeoisie. A fact that is in firm alignment with Marxist and Leninist principles.
This is nothing more than Dengist Revisionist propaganda, and a total detachment from Marxism.
Saying things such as “they execute corrupt billionaires” is false; as in your haste to defend Capitalist-states like China, who have the largest amont of billionaries than any other country, you have forgotten to compute one simple thing - WHY DOES CHINA HAVE BILLIONAIRES IN THE FIRST PLACE?! Even if this were to be true, they only rarely execute bourgeois for major crimes, extreme nepotism, corruption, and such, not out of any Anti-capitalist ideology. If they were truly Socialist, these billionaires would not exist in the first place.
Furthermore, The PRC has shown an extreme amont of amiability to its bourgeoisie, they have
greatly removed labour rights, and given many favours to its bourgeoisie, not anything near hostility.
You fail to understand that SOEs only make up less than 25% of the PRC’s total economy, nor are these SOEs Socialist in regards to their economic relations with their workers.
In fact, you have already partially proven my point: “These enterprises exist as an arm of the state and function within the global capitalist ideological context”. In other words, these SOEs have been turned into a form of Capitalist-style ownership in order for them to be able to contend with Western corporations.
These SOEs fuction identically to private ownership, they both are owned by a bourgeois class, they both exploit their workers’ labour value, and they both care about profits. Therefore, even these SOEs create Capitalist exploitation.
What achievments? Workers cannot even get basic healthcare (at least not outside the major cities), China has one of the worst labour conditions, and its Capitalist-ruling class makes unthinkable profits at the same time.
Lastly on this point, how is poverty reduction Socialism by itself? Poverty reduction could sometimes happen under Capitalism, do we call that Socialism?
The private education sector is still fuctional, from what I can tell. Could you present proof? And furthermore, how is that to itself Socialism?
How exhausting. And hostile. If you’re so convinced by yourself, then why are you even writing on this website?
If it works and it’s not war communism, it’s revisionism and anti-marx. Got it. The CPC has done more for its people and the earth than you ever will in your life. So, come back when you run a successful revolution, and establish the largest communist and political party on Earth. You are from the imperial core, right? You got your work cut out for you.
You could work on your social and argumentative skills. Here’s my suggestion. Read “ON THE CORRECT HANDLING OF CONTRADICTIONS AMONG THE PEOPLE”
It’s by Mao Tse-tung That should help you figure out what you want to say to convince other comrades of your point of view instead of debasing yourself online.
Edit: stop cherry-picking 🙄 Look up Guo Wengui. He is a billionaire in exile in Manhattan. Jack Ma also was openly hostile to the CPC and then he “disappeared” for three months. Like, no capitalist nation controls their billionaires so publicly. It’s clear that they only exist because the CPC finds their role useful in developing its economy. China is still a very economically modest nation. 10,500.40 USD GDP per capita.
You miss the forest for the trees. It is not any one isolated fact that makes China socialist. It’s all of them, combined. You may have your private opinion about things, but China is run by a communist party, they uphold communist ideology and seek common prosperity for their citizens. China was, before deng, a very poor, and relatively weak nation. I don’t personally agree with every single detail of the Chinese economy or society, but that’s just what happens when things exist outside of our imagination. It doesn’t fit our ideal. They are not communist Albania, they are not DPRK, or Cuba. Deng’s China had to exist in a hostile, capitalist-dominated world. It was adapt or die. The USSR had been dying and reforming into oblivion. However, I see that China is slowly rolling back capitalist reforms and influence, and seeks prosperity for their people in a democratic and revolutionary way. It’s clear capitalism is a tool of the people and not their cudgel, albeit there is a lot of work remaining to completely remove it.
I’ve read your other comments and you are spouting the same propagandistic nonsense that RFA, RFE, and NED do. All of which are funded by CIA. You’re really going to side with Imperialist intelligence before Socialist China? I think you have plenty of unlearning you have to do. But unfortunately, I trust you will not listen.
Well you see, if China doesn’t follow exactly what Hoxha said, it can’t be Marxist. Hoxha was the only true Marxist and Albania was the only true socialist state. Marxism is unchanging and rigid and no one can ever do anything different based on their country’s material conditions and circumstances. If a country ever makes mistakes, does anything I personal disagree with, it is an evil revisionist capitalist hellscape.
The US and the west are evil, but I utilize their information channels for all of my opinions of other countries, or I base all my opinions on purist infighting from the 1970s and won’t ever accept that there may be alternate paths to the same goal. You are stupid and wrong for having a different opinion than me, revisionist pig.
/s
But in all seriousness, I appreciated your updated response, saved me from having to write a book at work.
What you said is a complete mischaracterisation of Enver Hoxha and Hoxhaism.
The People’s Republic of China has taken an openly Anti-Marxist path, selling out its people to Western Megacorporations, and adopting bourgeois-nationalism as part of its ideology.
Enver Hoxha never claimed to be the only “true” Marxist, nor do Hoxhaists claim that the People’s Socialist Republic of Albania was the only true Socialist State.
Saying that:
Marxism is unchanging and rigid and no one can ever do anything different based on their country’s material conditions and circumstances. If a country ever makes mistakes, does anything I personal disagree with, it is an evil revisionist capitalist hellscape.*
Is false, considering that Hoxhaists fundimetally oppose the imperialism of NATO and uphold national self-determination.
And lastly claiming that:
The US and the west are evil, but I utilize their information channels for all of my opinions of other countries, or I base all my opinions on purist infighting from the 1970s and won’t ever accept that there may be alternate paths to the same goal. You are stupid and wrong for having a different opinion than me, revisionist pig.
Is utterly false. Everything I said is based on empirical information, not what the State Department said. You can use information, not based off Western-sources, to prove the large existance of billionaires in the PRC government and the Communist Party of China. You can prove that the SOEs only make up less than 25% of the economy, and so on. I am simply adhering to Revolutionary defeatism.
Everything I said is based on empirical information, not what the State Department said.
Okay. Provide the sources. Link how it is that China is not socialist or communist. Second, address the other points which you have conveniently neglected. You can’t just cherry-pick and think to get away with addressing half the points brought up.
Lastly, why are you even on lemmygrad? if you hate the user base so much, why submit yourself to this? Most people here are not Hoxhaists. Get over it. Like, you haven’t even explained things well, or made a convincing argument for yourself. It’s all naysaying. Aka a waste of time. You don’t even like Mao. Petty bourgeois? Lenin was petty bourgeois, and Marx! Don’t even get me started on Engles, or Guevara or Castro!
You need not look further then the constitution, the fundamental law, of the People’s Republic of China itself. During the 10th National People’s Congress, held in 2004, it was decided that private (bourgeois) property should be both allowed and enforced by the “Communist” party. For example, it says, I quote:
legally obtained private property of the citizens shall not be violated
Private ownership of the means of production is legally enforced by the Communist Party, how Socialist.
Do you want sources for all the billionaires? let me present them:
As to your claim that I am “cherry-picking”, that is false. As I have already said, people such as Guo Wengui are very rare. Geo Wengui commited very major crimes to get such as treatment. However, I must once again ask you something; Why does China have billionaires in the first place? Billionaires are not useful for economic growth, they are greedy, selfish, and care about exploiting their labourers. China could, with ease, achive the same, if not more, economic growth with a centrally planned economy. They do not need billionaires, let alone have atleast 100 billionaires in major government posts.
I am on Lemmygrad, particularly this part of Lemmygrad, because I thought I could get an intellectually meaningful discussion with fellow Marxists. I do not hate Dengists (which clearly seems to be an omnipresent ideology here), one of the reasons why I was so invested in this discussion was to help Dengists and other revisionists understand their Capitalistic and Anti-Marxist theory. Of course, now that I see how deeply Revisionist this community is, I have realised that this is rather futile - You Revisionists really think that Billionaires is Socialism, abusing Proletarians is Socialist in character, and selling guns to Anti-Communist governments to murder Communists is Spreading the Revolution. You Dengists use so many complex mental gymnastics to defend a clearly Capitalist state, I was not expecting this, I confess.
Ah! a non-response combined with an ad-hominem attack. Mao Zedong was a petite-bourgeois nationalist and revisionist, and later would betray the USSR and invite the Americans into his nation.
To Dengists such as youself, I suggest reading “Theory and Practice of the Revolution”, and perhaps if you have the time, also read “Imperialism and the Revolution”, by Enver Hoxha, it will help you understand applied Marxism.
I think a case could have been made in the past, but I think it is pretty clear it is not capitalist based on the fact that:
Conclusion: China has had to adopt capitalist structures in order to survive within a world that would have ruthlessly crushed it otherwise. To that extent, China has consistently used such structures in a practical purpose and has not shown signs of wavering in any sense away from socialism. In fact, China has been enhancing socialist structures of economic control and political practice. Even going so far as to encourage the development of Marxist parties and theory around the world. Therefore it is not capitalist. I would argue that their development is an existential threat to capitalist ideology as a brutal and outdated form of organizing society, governments and economies.
I forgot to add that this is what I have observed and studied as an outsider. Please feel free to correct me or add any details that I have missed. I also forgot to mention that their 95% approval rate of the CPC is consistent with the idea that the party should serve the people and not the bourgeoisie. A fact that is in firm alignment with Marxist and Leninist principles.
This is nothing more than Dengist Revisionist propaganda, and a total detachment from Marxism.
Furthermore, The PRC has shown an extreme amont of amiability to its bourgeoisie, they have greatly removed labour rights, and given many favours to its bourgeoisie, not anything near hostility.
In fact, you have already partially proven my point: “These enterprises exist as an arm of the state and function within the global capitalist ideological context”. In other words, these SOEs have been turned into a form of Capitalist-style ownership in order for them to be able to contend with Western corporations.
These SOEs fuction identically to private ownership, they both are owned by a bourgeois class, they both exploit their workers’ labour value, and they both care about profits. Therefore, even these SOEs create Capitalist exploitation.
Lastly on this point, how is poverty reduction Socialism by itself? Poverty reduction could sometimes happen under Capitalism, do we call that Socialism?
How exhausting. And hostile. If you’re so convinced by yourself, then why are you even writing on this website?
If it works and it’s not war communism, it’s revisionism and anti-marx. Got it. The CPC has done more for its people and the earth than you ever will in your life. So, come back when you run a successful revolution, and establish the largest communist and political party on Earth. You are from the imperial core, right? You got your work cut out for you.
You could work on your social and argumentative skills. Here’s my suggestion. Read “ON THE CORRECT HANDLING OF CONTRADICTIONS AMONG THE PEOPLE” It’s by Mao Tse-tung That should help you figure out what you want to say to convince other comrades of your point of view instead of debasing yourself online.
Edit: stop cherry-picking 🙄 Look up Guo Wengui. He is a billionaire in exile in Manhattan. Jack Ma also was openly hostile to the CPC and then he “disappeared” for three months. Like, no capitalist nation controls their billionaires so publicly. It’s clear that they only exist because the CPC finds their role useful in developing its economy. China is still a very economically modest nation. 10,500.40 USD GDP per capita.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-larger-meaning-of-chinas-crackdown-on-school-tutoring/amp
https://www.who.int/china/health-topics/universal-health-coverage
http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0504/c90000-9456411.html
http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0729/c90000-10128877.html
You miss the forest for the trees. It is not any one isolated fact that makes China socialist. It’s all of them, combined. You may have your private opinion about things, but China is run by a communist party, they uphold communist ideology and seek common prosperity for their citizens. China was, before deng, a very poor, and relatively weak nation. I don’t personally agree with every single detail of the Chinese economy or society, but that’s just what happens when things exist outside of our imagination. It doesn’t fit our ideal. They are not communist Albania, they are not DPRK, or Cuba. Deng’s China had to exist in a hostile, capitalist-dominated world. It was adapt or die. The USSR had been dying and reforming into oblivion. However, I see that China is slowly rolling back capitalist reforms and influence, and seeks prosperity for their people in a democratic and revolutionary way. It’s clear capitalism is a tool of the people and not their cudgel, albeit there is a lot of work remaining to completely remove it.
I’ve read your other comments and you are spouting the same propagandistic nonsense that RFA, RFE, and NED do. All of which are funded by CIA. You’re really going to side with Imperialist intelligence before Socialist China? I think you have plenty of unlearning you have to do. But unfortunately, I trust you will not listen.
/s
Well you see, if China doesn’t follow exactly what Hoxha said, it can’t be Marxist. Hoxha was the only true Marxist and Albania was the only true socialist state. Marxism is unchanging and rigid and no one can ever do anything different based on their country’s material conditions and circumstances. If a country ever makes mistakes, does anything I personal disagree with, it is an evil revisionist capitalist hellscape.
The US and the west are evil, but I utilize their information channels for all of my opinions of other countries, or I base all my opinions on purist infighting from the 1970s and won’t ever accept that there may be alternate paths to the same goal. You are stupid and wrong for having a different opinion than me, revisionist pig.
/s
But in all seriousness, I appreciated your updated response, saved me from having to write a book at work.
What you said is a complete mischaracterisation of Enver Hoxha and Hoxhaism.
The People’s Republic of China has taken an openly Anti-Marxist path, selling out its people to Western Megacorporations, and adopting bourgeois-nationalism as part of its ideology.
Enver Hoxha never claimed to be the only “true” Marxist, nor do Hoxhaists claim that the People’s Socialist Republic of Albania was the only true Socialist State.
Saying that:
Is false, considering that Hoxhaists fundimetally oppose the imperialism of NATO and uphold national self-determination.
And lastly claiming that:
Is utterly false. Everything I said is based on empirical information, not what the State Department said. You can use information, not based off Western-sources, to prove the large existance of billionaires in the PRC government and the Communist Party of China. You can prove that the SOEs only make up less than 25% of the economy, and so on. I am simply adhering to Revolutionary defeatism.
Okay. Provide the sources. Link how it is that China is not socialist or communist. Second, address the other points which you have conveniently neglected. You can’t just cherry-pick and think to get away with addressing half the points brought up.
Lastly, why are you even on lemmygrad? if you hate the user base so much, why submit yourself to this? Most people here are not Hoxhaists. Get over it. Like, you haven’t even explained things well, or made a convincing argument for yourself. It’s all naysaying. Aka a waste of time. You don’t even like Mao. Petty bourgeois? Lenin was petty bourgeois, and Marx! Don’t even get me started on Engles, or Guevara or Castro!
Get outta here with that nonsense.
You need not look further then the constitution, the fundamental law, of the People’s Republic of China itself. During the 10th National People’s Congress, held in 2004, it was decided that private (bourgeois) property should be both allowed and enforced by the “Communist” party. For example, it says, I quote:
Private ownership of the means of production is legally enforced by the Communist Party, how Socialist.
Do you want sources for all the billionaires? let me present them:
https://www.rt.com/business/553679-shenzhen-china-billionaires-number/
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-04-06/China-has-more-billionaires-than-ever-Forbes-ZffqU7Mmbe/index.html
https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774d774d544d30457a6333566d54/index.html
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-10-20/Stock-market-boom-new-listings-mint-China-billionaires-at-record-pace-UKyamY6s9i/index.html
As to your claim that I am “cherry-picking”, that is false. As I have already said, people such as Guo Wengui are very rare. Geo Wengui commited very major crimes to get such as treatment. However, I must once again ask you something; Why does China have billionaires in the first place? Billionaires are not useful for economic growth, they are greedy, selfish, and care about exploiting their labourers. China could, with ease, achive the same, if not more, economic growth with a centrally planned economy. They do not need billionaires, let alone have atleast 100 billionaires in major government posts.
I am on Lemmygrad, particularly this part of Lemmygrad, because I thought I could get an intellectually meaningful discussion with fellow Marxists. I do not hate Dengists (which clearly seems to be an omnipresent ideology here), one of the reasons why I was so invested in this discussion was to help Dengists and other revisionists understand their Capitalistic and Anti-Marxist theory. Of course, now that I see how deeply Revisionist this community is, I have realised that this is rather futile - You Revisionists really think that Billionaires is Socialism, abusing Proletarians is Socialist in character, and selling guns to Anti-Communist governments to murder Communists is Spreading the Revolution. You Dengists use so many complex mental gymnastics to defend a clearly Capitalist state, I was not expecting this, I confess.
我不知道你为什么分不清生产资料与个人财产，像你这样的想法在大跃进时期也出现过，锅碗瓢盆都被收归公有最后落得了什么下场？中国有亿万富翁，但腾讯拿出一年的利润支持乡村振兴战略，拼多多免费帮助落后地区销售产品，这些是资本家良心发现的作为还是被中共要求的作为？我再问你，请问在中国没有开放私营经济的时候中国是否比现在更好？我是中国人，我更喜欢现在的中国
我再问你，生产资料公有制是社会主义的目的还是社会主义的手段？
👍
Ah! a non-response combined with an ad-hominem attack. Mao Zedong was a petite-bourgeois nationalist and revisionist, and later would betray the USSR and invite the Americans into his nation.
To Dengists such as youself, I suggest reading “Theory and Practice of the Revolution”, and perhaps if you have the time, also read “Imperialism and the Revolution”, by Enver Hoxha, it will help you understand applied Marxism.
deleted by creator
无法获得基本的医疗服务？我不知道你是哪里听来的！五十年前全民免费医疗但是质量很差，基本只能治愈感冒之类的小病，想要做手术很困难。四十年前医疗需要花钱，但如果是小病花费很少，如果有较严重的疾病可以得到治疗但要花很多钱。城市职工有医保但农村人没有。如今不论是城市人还是农村人都能获得医保而且医保报销额度不断增高。你从哪里道听途说听来的鬼话
你对中国的叙述越多，我越能感到你对中国的无知