• hglman
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      1 year ago

      Bu but it’s sovereign!

      You can make plenty of arguments about why the actions of Russia are wrong, but using the phrase sovereign territory like it’s the king’s divine right aint one.

          • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            Usa took over ukraines government and made them murder the people in east ukraine. The goal of usa is to put nukes in ukraine and to murder all ukrainians and russians. Usa is racist and wants them gone.

            • Tosti@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              ROFL, you cannot be serious.
              This is some Q-anon level nonsense but then the russian version.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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                1 year ago

                Ah yes, people like Chomsky and Mearsheimer are the conspiracy theorists and not you. Welcome to the blueAnon level ignorance.

                • Tosti@feddit.nl
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                  1 year ago

                  Their premise is: “Because these countries become part of NATO, russia is directly threatened.
                  And thus russia must act in self defense.” This is the abusers credo. “Look what you forced me to do!” and it should not be acceptable. Well spoken intellectuals do not change that.

                  Your question: conspiracy theorists; probably. Russian apologists, absolutely.

                  And even if you could justify the invasion as self defense, how do you justify the way they go about it?

                  • Using precision weapons on apartment buildings, and other civilian targets.
                  • Personalized atrocities against civilians in occupied cities
                  • Holding the world hostage with a nuclear power plant.
                  • Holding the worlds poorest for ransom with the grain deals.

                  Try not to pivot and point at others and say “but what about…” we can agree other things might be just as wrong or even worse, that is besides the point in this conversation.

                  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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                    1 year ago

                    Russia is directly using the precedent NATO established in Yugoslavia when NATO recognized breakaway regions and then had them invite NATO for help. If people in NATO countries don’t like what Russia is doing then maybe they shouldn’t have been setting up the precedent for that.

                    Also, nobody is apologizing for anything, that’s a moral argument that has no value and isn’t constructive in any way. I’m simply pointing out that this conflict could have been averted and both sides played a role in creating the conditions for it. RAND literally published a paper titled “Extending Russia” which advocates for the exact scenario we’re currently seeing.

                    Try not to pivot and point at others and say “but what about…” we can agree other things might be just as wrong or even worse, that is besides the point in this conversation.

                    No, we’ll hold Russia to the same standards we hold the west to. Otherwise, we are creating two systems of morals one that applies to the west and another that applies to opponents of the west.

                    Yes wars are horrific, but nothing Russia has done even begins to compare to what NATO and its various members have been doing over the decades. Just a few examples for you:

                    • 90% of drone strikes in Afghanistan killed civilians and the west massacred over 6 million people with the war on terror. Where were you when that was happening?

                    Why is there so much outrage in the west over a war in Ukraine when nobody gave a shit about the wars the west conducts. Why is US not sanctioned for Iraq for example.

                    Why is the US occupying a larger chunk of Syria as we speak than Russia does of Ukraine. What is the difference between the two situations in your mind?

                    Holding the world hostage with a nuclear power plant.

                    Maybe don’t lie about something so obvious? https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-interview/20230629-iaea-saw-no-evidence-moscow-planning-attack-on-zaporizhia-nuclear-plant-but-anything-can-happen

                    Holding the worlds poorest for ransom with the grain deals.

                    Once again you’re spreading misinformation here either out of ignorance or intentionally. Either way that’s a bad look. After the Grain Deal was struck, Western Europe became the top importer of Ukrainian grain, and a negligible amount of it ended up feeding the “Millions of hungry people around the world”. The bulk of the African, Asian, and Global South countries, rely on Russian grain and not the Ukrainian.

                • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  If you can think of any other example of the US doing something like this, I’d love to hear it.

        • 768@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          A link is not a proof of work, even a chatbot answer would’ve been better than that.

          • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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            1 year ago

            If you can’t even be arsed to watch an hour long lecture on a complex subject perhaps you shouldn’t be debating it.

            • 768@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              If you can’t even be asked to summarise an erratic thought chain perhaps you shouldn’t be classist about it.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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                1 year ago

                There’s nothing erratic about what I said. The article linked in the submission, which you obviously didn’t read either, summarizes precisely what happened. Maybe take a moment away from trolling to actually engage with the subject you’re attempting to debate here.