I’m sure this is an important step to get the inflation under control, it will really improve the people’s life !
Great use of their time and power.
I really hope this is just to appease Trump and get on his good side and he doesn’t actually go and attack trans rights
A point some people seem to miss is that this administration is attacking from the bottom. They make it seem like little kids are getting surgeries as soon as they declare they’re the opposite gender so no one “reasonable” could be against this ban.
Once this passes and no one objects, and nothing really changes because kids weren’t getting surgeries in the first place, they wait a while. Then they’ll find some other “issue” and move on to adult trans people.
Not an expert, but isn’t the argentinian president an ultra-liberal? (liberal as the world-definition, not the US-definition)
Could this just be to appease Trump?
He ran a campaign claiming to be ancap libertarian and liberal (as you say, the world definition). However, if one listened closely to what he said and paid attention to what he did, as well as look at the local people he rubbed elbows with, one would understand immediately that he’s just a right-wing authoritarian populist.
He has met up with the same people behind Trump from the start, and as soon as he took over last year he pulled the same crap Trump is pulling in the US. He only became bolder now that Trump’s term began. That’s not appeasement, it’s knowing he has Trump backing him in case people here become too fed up with him. Though I have to wonder if Trump would even care.
Edit: Some people here are trying to paint trumpism = peronism as to distance Milei from Trump, but it’s bullcrap.
Liberal like Libertarian, actually small government, low inflation, leaving people alone, allegedly.
That seems extremely un libertarian of him. Wonder how his supporters will spin it as a positive for libertarians
No it isn’t. Children are not considered mature enough to make legal decisions on their own, so the whole libertarian issue doesn’t apply to them.
Right, so it falls to the parents’ discretion, not the government’s, in such a worldview.
So he’s also going to raise the age of consent from 14 to 18?
I dunno dude, I am just explaining while this move isn’t a contradiction with libertarian ideas.
I’m just pointing out the fact they don’t consider that when it’s related to consent.
Is this guy just a little ass fly hanging around Trump’s crappy nappy or something?
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Except that’s not what’s happening. They pause puberty with pills so the kid can grow up and make an informed decision after years of therapy. Meanwhile they don’t have to worry about their body going the wrong way and contributing to serious mental health problems.
These laws are forcing kids to deal with serious mental illness, not saving them.
In addition to what other commenters have said, the extent of gender affirming care should solely be based on:
- the decision of a medical ethics body and
- peer-reviewed and repeated studies
By the way, surgeries removing enlarged breast tissue for men with Gynecomastia is gender affirming care. In the article, it says that in the US 25% of patients were 19 or younger at the time of surgery. Should this too be banned for minors? If not, how exactly is it different from a trans teen desiring surgery?
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I wasn’t aware you were the leading expert on the subject. Because your opinion is so much more informed than mine.
I see, your reading comprehension is just generally shit. I did not claim to be “the leading expert on the subject.” I was simply pointing out how blatantly obvious it is that you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about and wondering why then you felt the need to contribute your opinion which carries negative value.
How about you try to enlighten him then, instead of throwing verbal abuse at him. He stated his opinion and you are free to debate him on that.
The fact that he gets attacked like this for his opinion is why I don’t engage in these discussions. Your kind of reaction will lose all support for your cause.
How about you try to enlighten him then,
Why should I? Other people in this thread have already explained why these misconceptions are just that. There’s no shortage of resources available from feminists, trans advocates and medical professionals online that argue the point that restricting bodily autonomy is bad far better than I ever could.
The fact that he gets attacked like this for his opinion is why I don’t engage in these discussions.
Good. My intent is to provide a disincentive for people to go online and confidently spread their harmful ignorance in ways that fly in the face of common human decency. Thanks for letting me know that I’m effective.
There’s no shortage of resources available from feminists, trans advocates and medical professionals online
If they’re so abundant and easy to find, then why not simply share them? You can also link the other posts that explain your position.
confidently spread their harmful ignorance
If he has such an uninformed position, it should be very easy to defend against it instead of wasting everyone’s time by making ad hominem attacks? Maybe we can make the internet a better place by not spewing toxic abuse even if one feels attacked by an opinion, no matter how uninformed it is?
You are defending your ideology in the worst way possible, and believe me when I say this, but you will never convince anyone beyond your closed bubble of why we need to move forward as a society this way.
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Sorry, Greg, you’re gonna just have to have breasts until you offically turn 18, because people think the goverment need to control children thet hate with no understanding of any detail.
But seriously, I had a cousin who had breast removal surgery when he was like 10-12, because he was a boy and didn’t want to grow breasts, and he had the surgery so early in the process he was never in a position to be made fun of or bullied over it.
1 anecdotal story does not mean we should allow something carte Blanche. For every story of someone that needs it there’s another where they regret it.
Yes some people need it but it can always be done later. We need to prevent the abuse of these types of surgeries first and foremost.
Yeah that’s why eliminating all ‘‘gender affirming’’ care for children is INSANE. That’s the exact thing I’m communicating.
Actually for every 99 stories of someone that needs it there is only one who regrets it. I don’t know about you but I think a 99% chance (the actual stat for regretting gender affirming care) is good enough for me to potentially save hundreds to thousands of kids from potentially suicidally bad depression and dysphoria.
So 1% suicide rate in children is acceptable you you I guess. I don’t care what the stats are and the problem with liberal extremists is they don’t care about people. They want to virtue signal that they are progressive and everyone else is a maga whack job that needs to kill themself. I don’t want ANYONE to resort to suicide and people should be able to access the care that is medically necessary for them.
Do not confuse me with someone that doesn’t want to give options to families. “Gender affirming care” is an EXTREMELY broad term. I am all for leaving medical decisions to medical professionals and we need to be clear about what exactly is “gender affirming care”. My comment is geared specifically toward irreversible surgeries.
You’re insufferable. How about DOCTORS take care of medicine and RELIGIONS pumped up on moral panic can NOT do whatever they personally choose not to do, and leave everyone else alone.
I think you completely misunderstand what is being said to you. Good job, I guess.
The remaining 1% doesn’t commit suicide. Suicide rates are significantly lower in groups that did do the surgery than in the groups that didn’t. And even for the very, very few that do, the stated reason is almost always the transphobia they still encounter from society.
Blanket banning will increase the suicide risk.
Nice
Gender affirming care for minors doesn’t mean surgery. I’m not sure if you’re under the impression that’s what this is banning but if it is, it’s wrong.
What this is banning, and what every similar ban is banning is things like puberty blockers which are reversible and are only effective before puberty (obviously). Preventing or delaying puberty is REALLY important because it makes fully transitioning infinitely easier later on as adults.
All bans like this are doing is making the lives of trans people much harder under the guise of “preventing unreversible operations” when that’s not even what they’re banning.
Thank you! That’s very informative! Maintaining my opinion
Can I ask why?
I do not agree with prepping children for a sex change and puberty blockers
Article: Gender-affirming care
Commenter:Gender-affirming care
You: Sex change
You seem to still be misinformed.
Dude literally talked about teansitioning
No, he talked about letting the person decide for themselves when they are actually mature enough to make the decision, and not making it harder on them physically and mentally if they do decide to transition later. If they don’t want to transition, they can just stop taking the blockers.
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None of that is anywhere close to what’s happening.
They give them a pill to temporarily block puberty. The point is to keep them from feeling severe mental anguish at their body developing the wrong way while they get years of therapy before a surgery.
We let children have medical care
Gender affirming care is medical care
But where do you draw the line of gender affirming care?
Is giving a teenage boy a bigger dick gender affirming care, and therefore essential medical care? What about a girl who’s flat chested wanting bigger boobs? I know it’s weird to ask and I do feel kinda gross but yeah. Is that too far? What about an athlete who wants to take steroids cause it would help them achieve their ideal body?
I’m genuinely not trying to be rude. I just, if you give the life altering drugs to one group of kids, where do you draw the line? What about kids who clearly need to hit a joint and chill but it’s illegal cause they’re underage? I don’t think it’s fair to give one group more privileges regardless of how they feel.
Drawing the line is easy: Can the procedure be delayed without any life long consequences? If yes, you can wait until you’re an adult.
You want bigger boobs? That’s fine, but in the end, it doesn’t make a difference whether you do it as a 14 years or as an adult. You can wait 4 more years.
You want steroids to achieve a more muscular body? That’s your choice, but it won’t harm you to wait another few years, you will still have enough time to achieve and enjoy your ideal body when you are an adult.
You don’t want to undergo male puperty? Okay, time to act now, because you will suffer irreversable consequences if we do nothing.
Is giving a teenage boy a bigger dick gender affirming care, and therefore essential medical care? What about a girl who’s flat chested wanting bigger boobs? I know it’s weird to ask and I do feel kinda gross but yeah. Is that too far? What about an athlete who wants to take steroids cause it would help them achieve their ideal body?
If my grandma had wheels?
None of these are mostly reversible treatments with negligible long term impacts that are common with trans minors.
None of thee are also connected to issues that cause intense mental health issues, including suicidal ideation AND can be treated by your proposed suggestions.
You’re comparing completely incomparable situations that look similar at face value without thinking about them for just a minute.
Cis people don’t kill themselves over body issues? Only trans people can be fucked up mentally?
Posting like this just makes you seem dishonest.
If you really wanna talk about this drop me a discord handle in dms, I don’t feel like typing out long form forum messages.
None of thee are also connected to issues that cause intense mental health issues, including suicidal ideation AND can be treated by your proposed suggestions.
This isn’t leading to CIS people not having intense mental problems that can potentially be changed through body modifications? That only people who are trans want to kill themselves because of the body they were born with?
Everyone has problems mentally. And I’m truly sorry trans people haven’t been helped in the past. But I honestly think and body modifications, be it through surgery or hormones or anything else, should be held off until we as a society agree children are adults. Else we might as well allow kids to smoke, drink, take steroids, or do anything that will let them have the “ideal” body.
The problems that lead to similar outcomes as gender dysphoria, such as body dysmorphic disorder are different and have different treatments.
In the case of trans people with gender dysphoria, it is social and medical transition.
You need to understand that these are different situations that require different approaches, this is why they’re approached differently by doctors.
Please I beg you to try to read up and understand the topics you talk about. I don’t want to sound hostile, I’m just really tired.
I’m not a doctor, so I don’t.
Just FYI, most “gender-affirming surgery” in the below 18 group is males having their moobs removed because male boobs are usually a source of social problems like being bullied in school. This will mostly affect straight young cis men if we’re going purely by the numbers.
So like, be as bigoted as you want, but don’t pretend to be informed on the subject just because you feel like jumping on the right wing bandwagon.
Really? Cause most people I’ve seen defend it, even in this thread, have been about hormone blockers and whatnot
On a statistical basis, really.
Trans people are a small minority compared to fat teenage boys.
Obviously this is aimed against trans people, so there’s a clear difference in how it’s received and it clearly affects trans people more politically, but according to numbers most gender affirming surgeries are indeed on cis males.
Of gender-affirming surgical procedures identified among adults and minors, 1591 of 2664 (59.7%) and 82 of 85 (96.4%) were chest-related procedures, respectively. Of the 636 breast reductions among cisgender male and TGD adults, 507 (80%) were performed on cisgender males. Of the 151 breast reductions among cisgender male minors and TGD minors, 146 (97%) were performed on cisgender male minors
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11211955/
Puberty blockers are maybe considered gender affirming care legally, idk, but technically it’s the opposite of affirming. You can’t use puberty blockers forever afaik, but you can use them to delay your decision possible gender affirming care until you’re ready to make the decision. And with that sort of use, they’ve proven to be quite safe and effective.
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How on Earth did I call you fat by pointing out that cis-males with obesity issues are far more common than trans people?
Guess you’ve some confidence to work on buddy, as talking about you didn’t even cross my mind. I pointed out a fact about gender-affirming care. Honestly, I assume that people are more or less closer to my age on Lemmy, so I genuinely didn’t consider that you might be actually a minor looking to get themselves some gender affirming care.
Yeah, puberty blockers are probably considered gender affirming care, but them not being included is just me being pedantic about the name. I guess “care which affirms your position of not being sure about your gender identity yet until you’re old enough to make one”.
Do you even read what your typing? or do you just get off on being a dick?
Excuse me?
You’re saying gender affirming care shouldn’t exist for minors despite not knowing the facts then when the facts are pointed out, you start screaming about me calling you fat.
Get off your high horse.
How is you supporting right wing policies being less of a dick than me pointing out your support of right wing policies, which might be because you don’t understand all the facts, not because you actually support the right, which is why I pointed out the facts which you took personal offense at?
Your argument fails to take into account that any person seeking to change their gender will not get any gender afferming treatment from medical professionsals, without a lot of therapy, psychological, and medical assessment. These kids don’t just go up to their parents and say “I want boobs” or “I want a penis” and mom calls up the family doc to schedule the appointment.
Your whole argument hinges of this conservative boogeyman thinking that any kid can just walk up to their lib parents and magic up a full gender reassignment surgery. And your example of girl asking her parents for bigger boobs would probably be denied by any reputable cosmetic surgeon.
Let’s be real: that type of total transition medical care is astronomically expensive and heavily gated by the professional medical community/industry. So how 'bout we leave those decisions to these kids, their families, and the qualified medical professionals?
No, I don’t think that. Thank you for putting those words in my argument for me. But you’re wrong.
How 'bout you don’t be so condescending
Your entire argument hinges on believing this, so either you believe it, or your entire argument is bullshit. Pick one.
You’re not a bad guy, but this is kind of a bad faith argument, saying that a 14yo not being comfortable with their gender is just a phase they’ll grow out of (like any other stupid kid / teenager phase). Does it happen? sure, of course it does. But it’s not ‘just a phase’ for the VAST majority of trans pre adults. If you’re scared that someone will change their mind and keep them from doing anything until 18, then they get hit with full wrong gender puberty and change their bodies in ways they can’t undo. Most of the older trans women I know transitioned in adulthood, and it sucks to say but they still sound like a dude talking. They hate it. They wish so bad they could have been allowed to do this as early as possible. They knew exactly what was going on, but had to wait. It’s up to parents to know their kids and say are you sure? are you SURE? REALLY? yeah? ok cool let’s do this then. Why make them suffer longer?
Ok, but where do you draw the line? Is it ok to treat non trans kids for gender affirming care? How far do you let it go?
Non-trans kids who want extreme changes to their body go to the same doctor that trans kids do: a psychotherapist and/or psychiatrist.
No one just getting any of your example body mods without serious psychological evaluation, even adults.
Nah, nobody here has been talking about psycotherapist. If that was all it was, everything would be cool. This is about body modifications. Which no kid should be doing. Leave it till 18
Talk to therapists all you want
Then you need to pay attention. They lie about surgery and ban the therapy and puberty blocking medications.
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Aaaaannnnd there it is - the unwillingness to accept reality.
And no one is getting that kind of body modifications without talking to one first. Your ignorance of the medical community is on full display.
Ok? And your point is?
The fact that children are getting body modigicatiks after talking is still the problem.
It sucks people are born into the wrong body. I wish it didn’t happen. But it does.
And if you start letting one group of kids start making body modifications, where do you draw the line of too much? Why would it be fair for a group to completely change gender but not for another to add more modifications the help theirs.
And this whole thread started by Argentina blocking those life altering changes. They didn’t stop therepy or anything, atleast not from what I’ve seen. The article was super short and Google results didn’t lead to much.
If they did then I’m sorry for the previous ignorance. But my original argument said dress and act a certain way all you want. And I’ll add we need to crack down on people bullying those that want to transition. I just don’t think the answer is let the child start transitioning. And it sucks for those that truly do know early that they should be yhe other gender.
But like, what about short people that know if they were taller than would have everything. What about kids who think if just had the one part of their body diffrent everything would be better? At what point do we stop the idealization that if we were just diffrent everything would be better and start helping kids in other ways.
is it ok to treat non trans kids for gender affirming care
Absolute yes, puberty blockers weren’t even invented for trans kids. Early puberty is a thing and a problem that’s treated using puberty blockers, the same that a trans person would use.
My son nearly had to go on puberty blockers, as he was starting to show signs of early puberty. We talked to our pediatrician, who ultimately determined that he’s not starting puberty just yet. Turns out he’s just a really rambunctious and rowdy 8 year old.
Thats literally not the same thing. CPP can cause actual health problems past wanting to kill yourself.
The drugs in this case it to make suure kid, primarily girls, can grow to their full height and bot have spinal issues due to that, lower cancer rates, and significantly lower the chances of diabetes.
Not thebsame
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“cut their dick off” yeah that’s exactly what gender affirming care is. This isn’t about surgery, it’s about HRT and puberty blockers, and the regret rates for all of those things are super low. Besides, there is already an epidemic of trans suicides. Do I need to repeat that? People are killing themselves because of transphobia, and yes, detransitioners exist, but most people don’t regret getting gender reaffirming care, and again, this is about HRT and puberty blockers, not just surgery.
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gender reassignment surgery is not done on minors with the exception of intersex babies(which itself is questionable ethics). Minors can and often do get a tattoos with parental approval.
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They can also get psychological counciling and be referred to as a preferred name. These count as gender affirming care.
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How is this affecting you? Why do you care what someone else does to their body?
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You mean how in the US they literally mutilate the genitalia of a majority of male children as soon as they are born and how no-one is doing anything about it?
I agree. That should be illegal.
Those babies can’t possibly consent to having their prepuces removed. Forced genital mutilation. Fucking disgusting.
Religion affirming care gets an exception when it comes to mutilating little kids
Not where I live it doesn’t.
Well they’ve been sort of soft about it recently because a right-wing government is on the rise.
But basically it’s not something that really happens here that much. Some people have even been charged with grievous bodily assault for cultural circumcisions, but I don’t think that went through. So basically I think cultural circumcision is currently legal, but not widely spread and has to be done by a medical practitioner, so you can’t get a traditional religious practicer to perform the circumcision.
Oh yeah now that I’m reading up about it, some fking company in Finland has seen circumcision as a market gap in like 2016. Pretty much no medical practitioners used to do non-medical circumcisions, but since the muslim population has grown quite a bit and there was some friction about it ~15 years ago https://yle.fi/a/3-5516204 iirc. That’s not the only story though.
Anyway, I personally am against any sort of genital mutilation of babies. And trans bottom ops aren’t easily done on minors, I can pretty confidently say.
“As someone with no horse in this race, this seems fair to me”
Nobody is doing that. “Gender-affirming care” also includes giving hormone blockers to a kid who started puberty way too early.
