from #NewYorkTimes #NYT
[Bias alert - #NYT usually favors Israel]
By Hiba Yazbek, Abu Bakr Bashir, and Lara Jakes
Jan. 8, 2025 Updated 1:19 p.m. ET
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“reee i won’t vote for harris because gaza genocide!!1!1” users on lemmy suspiciously silent now
Harris would not have done anything different, not that trump has done anything.
Fact of the matter is the USA under Biden and Harris let Israel do whatever it wants, and rewarded them. Really what would Harris have done differently?
Harris would have made some performative statement opposing IDF overreach while sending them more military aide
In addition to my other comment, this is applicable: Harris didn’t lose the election because of Gaza or protest voters - “the election was not close enough for the war to be a decisive factor”. Harvard research and Harris polls place Gaza as 15th among voter’s primary concerns. She lost because she ran what Bernie Sanders called a “disastrous campaign” that abandoned working class Americans. Instead of listening to and solidifying support among her base, she tried to court conservatives with moves like campaigning with the fucking Cheneys(!) and running commercials about wives secretly voting for her and hiding the truth from their husbands.
Democrats need to stop playing center field politically, and stop blaming left-leaning voters or protest voters for their party’s failure to listen to the concerns of their base.
Democrats need to stop playing center field politically, and stop blaming left-leaning voters or protest voters for their party’s failure to listen to the concerns of their base.
It’s clear that they find the very prospect repulsive.
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They are either humiliated, or they literally believe 4 years of genocide is worth it to send Democrats a message. I’m done giving a shit about their opinion. Half of them were probably Russian or Israeli anyway.
We tried to warn you that continuing to support genocide would be too much for some voters. You wanted genocide so badly that you screamed that anyone who tried to warn you was a Russian.
You’re getting the policy you refused to abandon, and you’re blaming your left.
So tell us, what was the realistic option that would have halted the genocide?
If we cannot count on democrats to stand against genocide, which should be the easiest thing to be against, then what makes you think democrats would stand for the people in other ways that conflict with what those in power want?
The only realistic option halting the genocide was putting pressure on the democrats and the only way to apply pressure to a politician for the non-rich is by threatening to withhold a vote for them.
If politicians refuse to listen to voters during an election, which is a most critical time, then clearly they will refuse to listen to voters outside of an election where you can’t even threaten to vote them out.
Has a lesson been demonstrably taught and learnt?
Let’s find out. Should Democrats have sold weapons that they knew were going to be used for genocide?
You can’t teach those who don’t want to learn.
Leading by example, I see.
crickets
Some of us have things to do in addition to entertaining entitled genocide supporters on lemmy. I’m not sorry that I didn’t respond within your timetable of checks comment times one hour.
But you still haven’t answered the question, who is the realistic non-genocise candidate we should have all voted for to prevent this? You’re so adamant that anyone who voted Harris loves genocide so much, so who was the non-genocide candidate that you, in your wisdom, voted for?
But you still haven’t answered the question, who is the realistic non-genocise candidate we should have all voted for to prevent this?
That wasn’t the question, and this comes off as gloating that both major candidates agreed with you that we should have kept funding genocide.
The question was:
So tell us, what was the realistic option that would have halted the genocide?
Which I answered. Biden should have adhered to the Leahy Law. That was a realistic option. I don’t know if it would have stopped the genocide, but we would no longer be complicit.
Biden should have abided by the Leahy law. No democrat has any business supplying a genocide.
Whether or not it would have stopped the genocide, who knows? We didn’t need to be complicit.
So handing the presidency to Trump is an improvement?
Of course trump isn’t. That’s why I voted for Harris.
So you can excuse genocide because the other guy also supports it?
So you just can’t help putting words on other people’s mouths?
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Pick a different subject to talk about Harris vs. Trump votes. There are arguments with a lot of merit, but this isn’t one them. Like the Palestinians said, it’s already hell. A hell of destroyed hospitals, schools and housing, of war crimes like murdered children, manufactured famine, rape, and torture…all with complete support from a Democrat President and large parts of his party.
Trump is going to create a lot of ruin if he accomplishes 10% of what he promises, but with the story being Trump’s approach to Gaza, stop pretending as if Biden has done better or Kamala would. On that issue it’s not as if either candidate would have done fuck all about Gaza other than continue to support the ethnic cleansing. There’s a reason Biden will be remembered as Genocide Joe. He repeatedly, explicitly affirmed the USA’s COMPLETE support of Israel and acted in accordance with that. He did nothing when Israel crossed “red lines” except provide Israel with more weapons and money. At least we’re spared the torturous, blatant hypocrisy of “we’re committed to peace” on the same week billions in arms deals are signed.
Let me head off rebuttals that amount to “but at least Harris might have tried”. She also explicitly confirmed continued support for Israel, and offered zero credible objections to blank cheque support as VP. The only thing the world could have expected from her were more “serious concerns” speeches.
Edit: And I don’t give even the slightest damn about downvotes. Both Dems and Republicans are HORRIFIC regarding this war, which has met the standard for genocide and is riddled with war crimes. I’m not going to shut up about it or pretend Harris would have been better because of popularity. Asking if protest voters feel stupid because Trump says it’s going to be hell is a resounding no, because people are right in saying it’s been that for over a year. America’s policy was already incredibly evil with no change even hinted at from Kamala and more of the same promised. And no, I’m not a protest voter (I’m Canadian and told people to vote Harris anyways because I agreed with Bernie Sanders), I’m not Russian, or Israeli, or a fascist, or a communist, or a bot.
They’re just trying to bully you into going away because then they can say that all opposition to centrists’ genocide was paid shills that went away after the election. That’s the narrative they’re spamming in this thread.
It’s not like you didn’t want this.
I didn’t want this at all. But now we have the worst option of both worlds and Gaza will finish being cratered in a few months, and we get to lose most of our few human rights in the US!
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So you got what you wanted in Gaza either way, and you get to blame the left.
Maybe the Cheneys you lot were so enamored with will do something to help you. They’re your base now anyway.
You can stop putting words in my mouth, thank you very much. That “you”, “you lot” that shows up in every one of these comments is carrying an awful lot of water.
I want Palestine to be free. I want Ukraine to be free too. But I have to be realistic about the fact that one side could maybe be reasoned with, and the other one actively wants to nuke the entire situation as well as nuke trans people, gay people, disabled people, brown people, black people, poor people… so enjoy that moral high ground while it lasts, I guess.
You can stop putting words in my mouth, thank you very much.
Did you not just post this?:
“reee i won’t vote for harris because gaza genocide!!1!1” users on lemmy suspiciously silent now
I mean agreed that one option was way worse, but the issue with that logic is what can we use as leverage in attempting to get the Democratic Party to stop funding Israel? The power people as a collective have over politicians/governments is in numbers, and voting is the easiest of the available ways to use those numbers. Protesting a party outside of their convention and then turning around to vote for them means that the protest was an empty threat.
The same thing is kinda true for any protest sine Trump was elected too. As long as the Republican party exists in it’s current state the Democrats can use them as a threat against their voters because “the alternative is so much worse,” and then use that as a reason to ignore their base. I can’t really see a situation where Kamala/the Democrats would have done something until it was too late, so in 4 years the Palestine would probably look about the same whether it was Trump or not.
And neither party is innocent from leading us into this mess. Even if Trump lost this election, Biden had 4 years, 2 of which had a Democrat majority, to do basically anything to stop Trump and largely squandered it. Plus a big thing Kamala ran on was being the same as or more conservative than Biden on a lot of things. The system that birthed Trump and MAGA won’t just go away without actual change being fought for by the Democrats, and neither Biden nor Harris really tried to do that.
The Democrats can’t keep treating entire groups like the LGBTQ+ community, racial minorities, or people in extreme poverty as hostages to try and drive up their voting numbers. Not only does it clearly not work, but doing so doesn’t make them that much better than the Republicans since they keep enabling them in the first place by not actually doing anything.
All this being said I did vote for Harris, but blaming Trump winning on Democratic voters or people criticizing the DNC/Biden/Harris is misguided and honestly a bit harmful. It isn’t supposed to be a voters job to blindly support a party or politician. The government is supposed to support and represent its citizens. Reversing that relationship by blaming voters for Harris losing is beneficial to to Republican party since it means the DNC will continue running completely as is and continue losing elections they should have an easy time winning.
I want Palestine to be free. I want Ukraine to be free too.
Just not enough to stop carrying water for the people who have been shoveling weapons to be used in the genocide in Gaza. Bringing up Ukraine like I’m some Russian who will object is low. We should have been focusing on Ukraine and telling Netanyahu to get bent.
But I have to be realistic about the fact that one side could maybe be reasoned with,
Pelosi, the ossified center of party leadership, was calling people who wanted us to stop our support for genocide “Russians” just like every pro-genocide centrist on lemmy. There is no reasoning with the genocidal.
and the other one actively wants to nuke the entire situation as well as nuke trans people
After they ran anti-trans hate in their own ads and spat in every trans person’s eye with the recent military spending bill, you don’t get to pretend Democrats aren’t itching to abandon trans people.
Democrats think solidarity is when you vote for us and we… ask you for money.
so enjoy that moral high ground while it lasts, I guess.
It beats framing cowardice as morality.
Republicans had no business supporting genocide, let alone Democrats.
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