Not sure how a burned book is restricting anyones freedom of religion. Compulsory book burnings, that would be another story. Some people have fun believing in sky daddy, some people have fun burning fantasy books - there is no real problem in coexisting, if they tolerate each other.
Because freedom of religion means that you can be religious without persecution. Someone publicly burning the symbols of your religion is aiming at threatening you for your religion.
Imagine you’d be living in a foreign country and your neighbour is greeting you every morning with burning the flag of your country of origin. He’s just having fun burning flags right?
Or how about the KKK burning black straw figures? They are jsut having fun right? It is their right. It is your fault for assuming they might want to incite violence against you this way right?
Or maybe we can stop pretending that the burning of a religious book is meant as a threat against the people believing in that religion just as much as burning any book related to a people, to certain ideas etc. aims at threatening them.
Imagine you’d be living in a foreign country and your neighbour is greeting you every morning with burning the flag of your country of origin
I join in, since he has a point and the country of my origin sucks.
Or how about the KKK burning black straw figures?
Is he burning straw muslims?
Or maybe we can stop pretending that the burning of a religious book is meant as a threat against the people believing in that religion just as much as burning any book related to a people, to certain ideas etc. aims at threatening them.
So wat muslim rules do we have to follow to not upset conservative and fundamentalist muslims? Do women have to cloth modest? Do LGBT+ people have to give up on their rights? Introduce some blasphemy laws? Because that are all things, conservative and fundamentalist muslims are upset about. Where do you draw the line?
You are convoluting two things. You say that not burning the Koran would be a sign of adhering to conservative muslim ideas of society. But it is a sign of adhering to the principles of democracy and human rights to prevent the abuse of freedom of expression for inciting hate and threatening a minority.
There is no right to threaten people and incite violence against them. That has nothing to do with the freedom of how you dress, who you love etc. It also doesn’t require blasphemy laws, because again, it is not constructive criticism of the religion, whose book is burned, but a threat of violence against the followers of that religion.
Incidently the LGBT+ community you seem to care about and want to protect is currently attacked in many US states by books talking about LGBT+ issues or written by LGBT+ authors being attacked. Now would you say that it is okay to burn a straw figure depicting a stereotype of an LGBT+ person is okay, because that would have nothing to do with hate against LGBT+ people? I hope not, because of course it does.
You are convoluting two things. You say that not burning the Koran would be a sign of adhering to conservative muslim ideas of society. But it is a sign of adhering to the principles of democracy and human rights to prevent the abuse of freedom of expression for inciting hate and threatening a minority.
Nah, I just value freedom of expression over the right of religious people to not be offended.
There is no right to threaten people and incite violence against them.
And there is no right to be not offended. What about drawing the Prophet? And again - existence of LGBT+ people offends conservative muslims, as well as women having basic human rights - so where do you draw the line? You dodged that question.
burn a straw figure
Are they burning straw muslims? You also dodged that question. I’m slowly getting a feeling that you are not really interested in engaging in a conversation.
you are clearly trolling so i end it here. You are ignoring the key issue, that burning a symbol of a group is always meant as a threat against the group. It has nothing to do with feelings of being offended or freedom of speech or whatever you try to justify your hatred with. If you defend the burning of symbols of a minority it is an expression of your hatred against that minority.
Sure, it’s me who is trolling - not you who constantly is not engaging with the arguments I made.
you try to justify your hatred with.
And for some reason you also get personal. I don’t hate muslims, I don’t like fundamentalist of any kind and I think organised religion is an obsolete concept that mostly brings suffering into the world, while at the same time I respect every humans personal faith - as long as they tolerate me and others.
If you defend the burning of symbols of a minority it is an expression of your hatred against that minority.
Nope. I don’t even have to agree with actions - but I can think that people have the right to do them. This concept is called tolerance - you should try it some times.
But I also have a question for you to think about - who is offended by burning of Koran? Secular, moderate muslims or fundamentalist? Maybe you are the one missing the point, the guy burning the book is trying to make.
Well i am atheist, my wife is a moderate muslim and we feel threatened by it, because it is a threat and it is no coincidence that i goes along with more and more open hatred, discrimination and violence against muslims or people perceived as muslims in europe. And you are proudly defending that hatred so it is obvious that you share the hatred.
Well i am atheist, my wife is a moderate muslim and we feel threatened by it
Fair point, but I asked if moderates and secular muslims were offended?
Again, I don’t hate muslims and I don’t think that burning koran or any book is a good thing. I might even join a counter protest, if some nazis were burning koran somewhere not far away. But I believe they have a fundamental right to do so, just like AfD clowns and Querdenker have the right to organise protests and marches - I will join the counter protest, but I believe that they have a fundamental right to do so. Freedom of expression is extremely important.
I get it that you and your wife might be frightened. I’m an immigrant my self and my gf does not pass as german, while being born here. The pure existence of AfD and likes, is rather threatening to me and if the trend continue I might have to seek a new home. But at the same time I strongly believe that people should be able to express them selfes even in ways that might be provokative to myself. Maybe it’s due to stories of my parents living under a regime that randomly forbade all kinds of expressions.
Not sure how a burned book is restricting anyones freedom of religion. Compulsory book burnings, that would be another story. Some people have fun believing in sky daddy, some people have fun burning fantasy books - there is no real problem in coexisting, if they tolerate each other.
Because freedom of religion means that you can be religious without persecution. Someone publicly burning the symbols of your religion is aiming at threatening you for your religion.
Imagine you’d be living in a foreign country and your neighbour is greeting you every morning with burning the flag of your country of origin. He’s just having fun burning flags right? Or how about the KKK burning black straw figures? They are jsut having fun right? It is their right. It is your fault for assuming they might want to incite violence against you this way right?
Or maybe we can stop pretending that the burning of a religious book is meant as a threat against the people believing in that religion just as much as burning any book related to a people, to certain ideas etc. aims at threatening them.
I join in, since he has a point and the country of my origin sucks.
Is he burning straw muslims?
So wat muslim rules do we have to follow to not upset conservative and fundamentalist muslims? Do women have to cloth modest? Do LGBT+ people have to give up on their rights? Introduce some blasphemy laws? Because that are all things, conservative and fundamentalist muslims are upset about. Where do you draw the line?
You are convoluting two things. You say that not burning the Koran would be a sign of adhering to conservative muslim ideas of society. But it is a sign of adhering to the principles of democracy and human rights to prevent the abuse of freedom of expression for inciting hate and threatening a minority.
There is no right to threaten people and incite violence against them. That has nothing to do with the freedom of how you dress, who you love etc. It also doesn’t require blasphemy laws, because again, it is not constructive criticism of the religion, whose book is burned, but a threat of violence against the followers of that religion.
Incidently the LGBT+ community you seem to care about and want to protect is currently attacked in many US states by books talking about LGBT+ issues or written by LGBT+ authors being attacked. Now would you say that it is okay to burn a straw figure depicting a stereotype of an LGBT+ person is okay, because that would have nothing to do with hate against LGBT+ people? I hope not, because of course it does.
Nah, I just value freedom of expression over the right of religious people to not be offended.
And there is no right to be not offended. What about drawing the Prophet? And again - existence of LGBT+ people offends conservative muslims, as well as women having basic human rights - so where do you draw the line? You dodged that question.
Are they burning straw muslims? You also dodged that question. I’m slowly getting a feeling that you are not really interested in engaging in a conversation.
you are clearly trolling so i end it here. You are ignoring the key issue, that burning a symbol of a group is always meant as a threat against the group. It has nothing to do with feelings of being offended or freedom of speech or whatever you try to justify your hatred with. If you defend the burning of symbols of a minority it is an expression of your hatred against that minority.
Sure, it’s me who is trolling - not you who constantly is not engaging with the arguments I made.
And for some reason you also get personal. I don’t hate muslims, I don’t like fundamentalist of any kind and I think organised religion is an obsolete concept that mostly brings suffering into the world, while at the same time I respect every humans personal faith - as long as they tolerate me and others.
Nope. I don’t even have to agree with actions - but I can think that people have the right to do them. This concept is called tolerance - you should try it some times.
But I also have a question for you to think about - who is offended by burning of Koran? Secular, moderate muslims or fundamentalist? Maybe you are the one missing the point, the guy burning the book is trying to make.
Well i am atheist, my wife is a moderate muslim and we feel threatened by it, because it is a threat and it is no coincidence that i goes along with more and more open hatred, discrimination and violence against muslims or people perceived as muslims in europe. And you are proudly defending that hatred so it is obvious that you share the hatred.
Fair point, but I asked if moderates and secular muslims were offended?
Again, I don’t hate muslims and I don’t think that burning koran or any book is a good thing. I might even join a counter protest, if some nazis were burning koran somewhere not far away. But I believe they have a fundamental right to do so, just like AfD clowns and Querdenker have the right to organise protests and marches - I will join the counter protest, but I believe that they have a fundamental right to do so. Freedom of expression is extremely important.
I get it that you and your wife might be frightened. I’m an immigrant my self and my gf does not pass as german, while being born here. The pure existence of AfD and likes, is rather threatening to me and if the trend continue I might have to seek a new home. But at the same time I strongly believe that people should be able to express them selfes even in ways that might be provokative to myself. Maybe it’s due to stories of my parents living under a regime that randomly forbade all kinds of expressions.