The Heinz dilemma is a frequently used example in many ethics and morality classes. One well-known version of the dilemma, used in Lawrence Kohlberg’s stages of moral development, is stated as follows: A woman was on her deathbed. There was one drug that the doctors said would save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman’s husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: “No, I discovered the drug and I’m going to make money from it.” So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man’s laboratory…
Mangione’s Dilemma is another variant: “If Heinz’s wife dies, alongside 900 thousand other people, because of the scientist’s chosen profit margin, and Heinz proceeds to kill the scientist, should he be jailed?”
This is only a dilemma when your brain is on capitalism
Well said
Saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person.
Universal human ethics: Saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person.
This is the camp I am in.
Is this your universal position? I guess you don’t give everything you possibly can without starving to a charity that saves human lives.
With the cost of your phone alone you could fund dozens of vaccinations in poor regions that save lives but you don’t.You let those people die for your own selfish reasons.
I’m playing the devil’s advocate of course, but it’s interesting where people draw the line.
You need to take care of your own life too, selling off everything you have and give it to the red cross is not the way to go. The correct way is probably being pro capitalist, but garness the efficiency to do good (which might be impossible).
What a weird statement too, killing the messenger style.
I guess you wanted to jumpstart the discussion :-) ?
Not who you replied to, but your arguments remind me of Peter Singer. Basically, that none of us live ethical lives because of exactly the first problem you mentioned. If we CAN donate to a cause we know will do good with the money, more good than we could do ourselves, then we MUST do so. Failing to do so is a moral failing.
It’s definitely an appealing argument, and I enjoy exploring the limits of such philosophies. To me, it’s about immediacy, guarantee, and proximity. I see something that has a shorter timeline as something that must be acted on with higher priority. Something that’s guaranteed is higher priority than a slim chance. And I’m more likely to help those closer to me than across the world.
We’re all limited in our capacity to know and to do. I don’t have to be perfect, I can accept that some of my actions are less moral than they could be. I just aim to be as above the line, so to speak, trying to bring more positive than negative. I think the comment you initially replied to is a pretty good heuristic to follow to do so.
Is there a name for the concept that
One individual doing that is a tiny drop in a huge bucket- It would be a drastic change for the giver, and a tiny incremental change for the ones in need? Like, you’re fighting a systemic problem that you alone can never solve.I use “fighting the long defeat”:
“I have fought the long defeat and brought other people on to fight the long defeat, and I’m not going to stop because we keep losing. Now I actually think sometimes we may win.” ~Paul Farmer
Do what you must, but don’t expect results. Expect defeat, embrace it, and then persist through it.
starfish parable
Ok but I feel like instead of throwing a dozen starfish into the ocean, I’m moving a thousand of them two inches. Sure, some on the margin might survive now, but I’ve wasted a lot of time.
I had to look it up. Thank you! I learned something new
By the way, I think it’s quite different than what that other commenter was asking.
Taking the response to a very specific and pointed question out of context and then applying that answer to other things doesn’t really make sense.
The answer to the question, “Do you like chocolate?” is not transferrable to other things.
If you said, “Yes, I like chocolate”, that does not give me permission to assume that you have agreed to go to the store and buy everybody chocolate.
One does not equal the other.
You are just guessing that giving away all your worldly possessions to charities will help people, and not just make some charity management obscenely wealthy.
The Devil’s advocate position should be about things the person can directly witness or experience, like do they volunteer their time or have looked for a local place to contribute to etc
I thought this was going to be about ketchup vs catsup.
There is no dilemma: life over money.
What if there is only one dose, but two people need it?
In that case the production of drug should be increased until demand is 100% satisfied.
I’m that case, should the party with more money be entitled to it?
The story was about theft, so first come first serve I guess?
Are you willing to give up any new electronics you own because they were made with slave labor?
That’s a strawman and you know it.
Are you saying that electronics don’t rely on slave labor?
https://www.emergingtechbrew.com/stories/2023/06/01/forced-labor-tech-supply-chains
And another strawman.
Cows must love your trail of failed arguments.
Ad hominem fallacy (or ad hominem) is an attempt to discredit someone’s argument by personally attacking them. Instead of discussing the argument itself, criticism is directed toward the opponent’s character, which is irrelevant to the discussion.
They insulted the idea not you.
And yet another strawman.
no, but i’m too comfortable with them, and i should be giving them up and seeking ethically made stuff instead. i recognize that i’m doing something immoral
And you can check. This isn’t an account I control.
The 2 situations are not comparable.
Hmm… “life over money” seems like a reasonable justification for their decision and is an example of a “post-conventional” justification in Kohlberg’s theory, but I think it’s fair to try to point out the limitations of that justification as a general principle. I think that’s what @Dagwood222@lemm.ee was going for, but they were a bit too pithy, so their retort comes across as a straw man fallacy (more like whataboutism maybe - definitely some type of tu quoque).
no, but i’m too comfortable with them, and i should be giving them up and seeking ethically made stuff instead. i recognize that i’m doing something immoral
My take is that it’s pretty much impossible to live a completely moral life in an immoral world.
Even if you go 100% off the grid you aren’t actively fighting.
We have to pick our battles.
I just try to keep using my old stuff for as long as I can, and replace it with stuff I brought used.
Do you have a reputable source showing that Samsung phones, for example, are made with slave labour?
If they are then that would obviously be very bad, although I’m not sure it’s as bad as somebody dying (like in OP’s dilemma).
I see, Samsung is mentioned in that article. Like I said, I think that is obviously bad, but it’s probably not as bad as somebody dying.
I wasn’t expecting and liked the idea that whether the respondent says yes or no isn’t as important as the category of reason they give.
What stage of ethics is capturing the druggist, torturing him until he signs the rights to the drug over to you, and releasing the formula for people to make for free?
It depends on your justification for doing so, but I expect it will be universal human ethics.
Well, almost universal.
The husband was in the right!
