• FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world
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    12 hours ago

    Unless you think taking civilian hostages is a legitimate tactic, then any ceasefire must unconditionally involve their release. Not complicated.

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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      10 hours ago

      unless you think genocide is a legitemate tactic, you are wrong. genocide is bad. it’s not complicated.

      • FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world
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        2 hours ago

        That’s kinda included in the ceasefire part, no? Ceasefire = no more genociding. So it should also equal no more civilian hostages, right?

        Edit: I feel making this obvious point is making some feel uncomfortable…

    • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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      12 hours ago

      Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.

      This isnt about the hostages, this is Israel engaging in Genocide to eradicate and forcibly displace the Palestinian people. Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967. Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, and has been the one preventing a ceasefire.

      De-development via the Gaza Occupation

      Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.

      Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.’ In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.

      • Page 105

      Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986.

      • page 240

      In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60% over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50% decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (combined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.

      • Page 402

      • The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy

      Blockade, including Aid

      Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.

      After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.

      The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.

      Peace Process and Solution

      Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

      How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

      ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

      One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

      Human Shields

      Hamas:

      Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.

      Israel:

      Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields:

      Deliberate Attacks on Civilians

      Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:

      Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.

      • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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        3 hours ago

        It would take too much time to try and point out to you how brainwashed you are with half truths and misinformation.

        99% of Gaza still alive after one year of this “mass assassination factory.”

        And for fucks sake stop accusing the IDF of using human shields. That happened like literally five times. It’s a crime. The IDF people who do it face a court martial.

        Gaza uses entire schools, apartment buildings, hospitals, and their own families as actual human shields. And then they cheer with giddy excitement when their own families get killed, just so they can removed about how they are the real victims. Hamas and Hamas supporters are not victims. They are perpetrators.

        They do not want peace. They never made a serious peace offer. The demands that you’re referring to are utter bullshit, which again you leave out half of the details, conveniently the half that’s most ridiculous, such as Hamas agreeing to release hostages only if the IDF releases every Hamas member. LOL. That’s not a serious offter and was never going to be entertained. It was only proposed to trick dotards such as yourself that Hamas was proceeding in good faith.

        I don’t know how to make this any simpler form you: criminals don’t get to dictate the terms by which they are arrested and prosecuted, or the terms by which they are targeted in war.

        Hamas can either surrender or die. There’s is no third outcome for Hamas. How much of Gaza they want to take with them is up to them and the people not Gaza. I’m sure Hamas would want to take 100% of Gaza. So far, it seems 99% of the Gaza is NOT willing to go huddle up around some Hamas commander to try and deter an air strike. Only the most extreme Gazans seem to be going along with Hamas on that one. That’s the option for peace, those 99% of people in Gaza who left north Gaza, who aren’t huddled up in tunnels to shield Hamas members. There is no path to peace that involves catering to actual terrorists and you sound delusional suggesting otherwise.

        Same for Hezzbollah: they can stop launching thousands of rockets at Israel, or they can get bombed and pushed back until they’re dead or beyond range for their rockets.

        Yes, I know, it’s very sad that terrorists have radicalized the population and 1% of Gaza goes along with it. Boo hoo.

        • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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          2 hours ago

          And for fucks sake stop accusing the IDF of using human shields. That happened like literally five times.

          It seems pretty reasonable to accuse them of something they have done repeatedly.

          And this isn’t “minding their own business near something we want to bomb,” like the claims against Hamas, these are cases of people literally and directly used as shields.

          • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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            1 hour ago

            Sure, it can be reasonable. Using it as “whataboutism” though isn’t a legitimate argument.

            Hamas uses entire cities. Millions of people. Generations of young men and women who might otherwise prosper except they are born into a place run by Hamas.

            It’s disgusting when anyone uses human shields. In Israel it’s a crime. In Gaza, it’s a the greatest hope of the leadership, that a civilian might die to an Israeli bomb.

            • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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              1 hour ago

              Hamas uses entire cities. Millions of people.

              Can you explain exactly how? How can someone sat in their home above a tunnel they did not create or possibly even know about be a human shield? That is meaningfully different to being strapped to the front of a car or forced into a booby trapped tunnel at gunpoint, no?

              • Voluntary vs involuntary human shields. Hamas plundered the wealth of all Gaza and used it to build 500 miles of tunnels in an area only 25 miles wide.

                It is meaningfully different, yes. There’s been a handful of strapping people to a car. It’s a crime in Israel. People have been imprisoned for it.

                ~5 people < ~2,000,000 people.

                5 people is basically an isolated incident.

                2,000,000 people decade over decade is a modus operandi.

                • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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                  10 minutes ago

                  How exactly are Gazans human shields? In what meaningful sense? Being in your home near something Israel deems a target doesn’t make you a shield, does it?

                  Voluntary vs involuntary human shields.

                  Who is voluntary?

                  It is meaningfully different, yes.

                  Glad we agree. And much worse, imo.

                  ~5 people < ~2,000,000 people.

                  The rest of this all depends on how exactly you’re alleging that 2 million people are human shields and not just humans

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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          3 hours ago

          Anyone can throw a few links together

          And yet not a single citation here. 🤔

            • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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              1 hour ago

              “trust me bro these facts are soooo easily verified. i won’t do it but it’s so easy bro i swear.”

            • OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world
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              1 hour ago

              And then they cheer with giddy excitement when their own families get killed, just so they can removed about how they are the real victims.

              Come on now. Is this easily verified? Is it even true?

      • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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        10 hours ago

        thanks for your effort in putting this together. praying it falls on more attentive ears than deaf.

        • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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          3 hours ago

          Anyone can throw a few links together from literal propaganda outlets of foreign state media and from people who begin every single “article” with “Click Here to Donate!”

          Praying this doesn’t fall on the blind. You, know, because you can see with your own eyes what’s happening in Gaza.

          • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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            3 hours ago

            people who begin every single “article” with “Click Here to Donate!”

            “oh nooooo the non-profit site asks for donations” 😂 i guess every wikipedia article is also propaganda

          • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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            3 hours ago

            Just pretend you’re sure that reactionaries down voting a fact that makes them feel angry doesn’t change the truth of the fact. I don’t even need to imagine. The downvotes track with my experience: most people are dumbasses.