In light of the recent election, it’s clear that the Democratic Party needs a significant leftward shift to better address the needs and concerns of the American people. The party’s centrist approach is increasingly out of touch, limiting its ability to appeal to a broader base and especially to young voters, who are looking for bold and transformative policies. The fact that young men became a substantial part of the conservative voting bloc should be a wake-up call—it’s essential that the Democratic Party broadens its appeal by offering real solutions that resonate with this demographic.

Furthermore, one major missed opportunity was the decision to forgo primaries, which could have brought new energy and ideas to the ticket. Joe Biden’s choice to run for a second term, despite earlier implications of a one-term presidency, may have ultimately contributed to the loss by undermining trust in his promises. Had the party explored alternative candidates in a primary process, the outcome could have been vastly different. It is now imperative for the Working Families Party and the Progressive Caucus to push for a stronger, unapologetically progressive agenda within the Democratic Party. The time for centrist compromises has passed, as evidenced by setbacks dating back to Hillary Clinton’s 2016 loss, the persistently low approval ratings for Biden since 2022, and Kamala Harris’s recent campaign, which left many progressives feeling alienated. To regain momentum and genuinely connect with the electorate, a clear departure from moderate politics is essential.

  • abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us
    11·
    2 months ago

    You do acknowledge the main point afterward though. I think we’re in agreement on it being a mistake for her to not distance herself from Biden and not sufficiently acknowledge people’s economic problems.

    Yep. I think there’s still a tiny disagreement here over whether or not Harris could have put enough distance - but we both agree that a primary would have proven it either way and solved the problem with a different candidate if it wasn’t possible, so that’s perhaps immaterial.

    The only similarity is, “We’re going to make the economy better going forward” which every politician ever is going to say.

    Both Harris and I provided more specific details than that.

    No no no. You cut off major parts of what I said.

    Space limits on posting. But actually I agreed on those points and didn’t feel the need to respond to them - Harris never said the economy was really and painfully bad outright and never sought distance from Biden.

    That’s still completely insignificant, obviously. Individual politicians don’t matter unless they draw in constituencies (and don’t alienate other constituencies), which did not materialize.

    Agreed, the latest numbers do suggest that if there was split voting, it was in favor of the Dems downballot and orange voldemort rather than the opposite, like we saw in 2020 for Biden.

    I was just pointing out that this did draw in some, but as you said it wasn’t enough.

    No, the number did not fall short of that, it’s just that Arizona and Nevada have not been called for Trump yet

    Oh, that’s right. I spoke too soon - should have waited for the data.

    And Clinton won the popular vote while Kamala lost it.

    But from your own wikipedia pages, Clinton wont 65,853,514 votes while the estimate at https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/18340229 says “Kamala around 73 million” so Harris objectively did better than Clinton on the popular vote in terms of raw numbers.

    The only thing I was wrong about was that it wasn’t just 20 years. We actually have to go all the way back to 1988 to see a result this bad for the democrats, an election where George H.W. Bush won California.

    So worst case 2024 will still be better than 1988 in terms of EC numbers. Anyways, if I’m reading https://www.politico.com/2024-election/results/president/ it’s still too soon to call - the reason being that it’s mathematically possible for Harris to still win those two (if she won all the remaining votes left to be counted). So still too soon to tell.

    This is essentially a conspiracy theory. It’s no different from QAnon people explaining away anything Trump does that they don’t like by saying that he had to say it to appease the deep state and get elected, TRUST THE PLAN. It’s completely baseless cope and every piece of actual evidence clearly contradicts it.

    So let me give some quotes here to back this up.

    as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, …end the suffering in Gaza,… and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,”

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

    Kamala Harris says two state solution is the ‘only path’ forward after meeting with Israel’s Netanyahu

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/kamala-harris-says-two-state-solution-is-the-only-path-after-meeting-with-netanyahu-b2586161.html

    Harris didn’t have much in terms of actual action, but her position post-Hamas was still for a two-state solution and to put an end to what was happening in Gaza.

    The problem is there was no plan for that - but she only had three months to rush a campaign through. So less “TRUST THE PLAN” and more “hope she can figure out a plan once she’s in office.”

    It’s not a conspiracy theory because she did actually say these things, but if you’d question if these would end up as broken promises … it seems that the voters who cared about these things shared your questioning.

    But even if it were true it doesn’t matter in the context of assessing why she lost, because there was no possible way for voters alienated by her public stance to know that she was lying and secretly on their side.

    Again, it wasn’t secret, but was based on the speeches she gave, along with this bit of protestor inspired impromptu: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/harris-appears-to-agree-with-protester-accusing-israel-of-genocide-what-he-s-talking-about-it-s-real/ar-AA1szCVt

    Obviously it wasn’t enough, but, it wasn’t kept as a secret.

    • OBJECTION!English
      3·
      2 months ago

      Yes, Clinton got fewer total votes in a lower turnout election, but by every other metric the election was less bad than this one was for Harris, whether we look at the EC or votes compared to the other side.

      As for Gaza, there is one very simple and straightforward action that Biden could have taken (or still could actually) or that Harris could have said she’ll do: place conditions on arms shipments to Israel (or even just stop them entirely). Refusing to do that is a complete endorsement of Israel’s actions. Like I said, it’s like saying that you disapprove of a mass shooter’s actions while handing him another clip. Words and speeches are completely meaningless unless that is addressed, all she ever said was essentially, “Wouldn’t it be nice if they could resolve their differences without fighting? But of course I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself and will keep arming them unconditionally.” There is no indication that she would’ve been at all willing to take meaningful action.

      It used to be the case that politicians would promise to do good things, and then maybe sometimes they’d actually keep their promises. Nowadays they don’t even promise anything and people just convince themselves they’ll do what they want regardless. Like, even if she had said that she’d stop shipments, sure I would support her, but it would not be entirely unreasonable to question whether she’d follow through. But in the case where she couldn’t even say it, the chances of her doing it are basically zero.

      • abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us
        11·
        2 months ago

        Yes, Clinton got fewer total votes in a lower turnout election, but by every other metric the election was less bad than this one was for Harris, whether we look at the EC or votes compared to the other side.

        No need to rehash what I said above, beyond that I’m still waiting for the data.

        As for Gaza, there is one very simple and straightforward action that Biden could have taken (or still could actually) or that Harris could have said she’ll do: place conditions on arms shipments

        Agreed. Now, my understanding is that Harris as VP can’t actually do this, that authority runs from Biden down to his cabinet secretaries. But she could have made that promise. It’s still not taking action, but maybe it would have been enough.

        Refusing to do that is a complete endorsement of Israel’s actions.

        So minor disagreement here. You say complete, or 100%, while I’d say like 95% or 97%. Perhaps an immaterial difference.

        Words and speeches are completely meaningless unless that is addressed

        But your proposal above, for Harris, is just more mere words: “Harris could have said”

        all she ever said was essentially, “Wouldn’t it be nice if they could resolve their differences without fighting?"

        I think calling for a cease-fire is a mite bit stronger than that, but again perhaps the difference between us is so small as to be immaterial.

        "and will keep arming them unconditionally.”

        Agreed, definitely a problem. No need to rehash about the Jewish voting bloc stuff - we understand why this was done and we saw first hand that it didn’t work out. So with 20/20 hindsight…

        “But of course I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself”

        After Oct 7, 2024, I would too. To say otherwise is an insult to the families of the hostages - telling them that they aren’t important enough to protect, that it’s okay for this to happen to them again.

        There is no indication that she would’ve been at all willing to take meaningful action.

        On here we completely disagree. “I will stop the Gaza war by any means necessary.” seems like a pretty big indication.

        Meanwhile,

        Trump says he’s about to speak to Netanyahu and says, "Biden is trying to hold him back … he probably should be doing the opposite, actually.

        Source: https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-trump-cease-fire (link to quote in the “free rein” link on that page)

        To be fair, the above is also a really big indication.

        • OBJECTION!English
          3·
          2 months ago

          Words and speeches are completely meaningless unless that is addressed

          But your proposal above, for Harris, is just more mere words: “Harris could have said”

          That’s why I used the word, “unless.” If the words are addressing that point, then they’re meaningful, but as long as they aren’t, they are not.

          On here we completely disagree. “I will stop the Gaza war by any means necessary.” seems like a pretty big indication.

          Does it now? There are lots of ways to stop a war, for example, by destroying the other side’s willingness or capability to keep fighting. You know, like Trump said, “finish the job,” and then there won’t be any more fighting because one side would all be dead. You’re choosing to interpret it to mean what you want it to mean, and a supporter of Israel would interpret it to mean what they want it to mean, typical equivocation with no indication of what it actually means in practical terms.

          What you don’t understand is that politicians are most responsive to voters in the lead-up to an election. After they get elected, then they’ve already gotten the votes they needed, so they can focus more on lobbyists and corporate donors. That’s why there is zero chance that she would’ve become more pro-Palestinian when in office, because the voters are far more favorable to Palestine than the donors and lobbyists are.

          • abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us
            11·
            2 months ago

            That’s why I used the word, “unless.” If the words are addressing that point, then they’re meaningful, but as long as they aren’t, they are not.

            Ah I think I got your meaning now.

            Does it now?

            Yes.

            There are lots of ways to stop a war, for example, by destroying the other side’s willingness or capability to keep fighting. You know, like Trump said, “finish the job,”

            I assume this is just an example and you aren’t seriously suggesting this is what Harris means. Harris has been very clear on the need for an immediate ceasefire.

            You’re choosing to interpret it to mean what you want it to mean,

            Well, the alternative meaning doesn’t fit with what Harris has said about getting to an immediate ceasefire - you can’t have a ceasefire if you’re trying to kill every last person on the enemy side. That contradiction makes me think I’ve interpreted it correctly.

            What you don’t understand is that politicians are most responsive to voters in the lead-up to an election.

            I got that. I figured this was an important constraint on Harris being able to speak in support on Gaza in fact - AIPAC withdrawing their support of her.

            After they get elected, then they’ve already gotten the votes they needed, so they can focus more on lobbyists and corporate donors.

            This is a good point, AIPAC would still be around after the election.

            That’s why there is zero chance that she would’ve become more pro-Palestinian when in office, because the voters are far more favorable to Palestine than the donors and lobbyists are.

            I think zero chance is too extreme. Consider this,

            Obama said in late 2010 that his views on gay marriage were “evolving,” and since then administration officials have pointed to those comments, stressing that Obama is a supporter

            Source: https://www.politico.com/story/2012/05/obama-expected-to-speak-on-gay-marriage-076103

            Also, the goal wasn’t necessarily to make Harris pro-Palestine, but simply more anti-genocide. As the situation in Gaza worsens, I could see a possibility where from the grassroots a movement of change, going thru e.g. Sanders and AOC, would eventually convince Harris to evolve her position here as well.

            Now, as you point out there are powerful forces that would resist that, but the outcome of that battle would not have been a foregone conclusion.

            • OBJECTION!English
              3·
              2 months ago

              Quick question, how do you feel about Trump talking about immediately ending the war in Ukraine?

              • abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us
                11·
                2 months ago

                Optimistic. As per https://sopuli.xyz/post/18928087 it seems that “Zelensky was somewhat reassured”

                Previously I had thought that this guy would just withdraw all support and hand free reign to Russia, but Zelensky is no fool. If he’s feeling it, then I’m very happy indeed to be proven wrong about this point.

                Another silver lining - if the US withdraws from NATO, then at least, they can’t block Ukraine from joining…

                • OBJECTION!English
                  3·
                  2 months ago

                  My point is that calling for peace doesn’t necessarily mean very much unless there’s terms and/or a plan for how to bring people to the table if they don’t want to cooperate.

                  • abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us
                    1·
                    2 months ago

                    From a personal point of view, I’d still take the promise, provide that I can the person making it as being reliable.

                    But from a wider point of view, agreed. Perhaps there was something more Harris could have said, earlier, to back up those statements and give this voting bloc a stronger reason to believe in her without causing the Jewish voting bloc to move away from her. Alternatively, maybe the risk of alienating that other bloc with more concrete steps or plans should have been taken - as stepping to hard to avoid alienating them clearly didn’t work out.