Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley laternecessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is “fixed” the only bar that matters, or is “better” not still valuable? What about simply “not actively getting worse”? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You’ve asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it’s a gotcha.
Let’s imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren’t, but let’s pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn’t believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there’s an issue but hasn’t fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it’s entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don’t want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
What about simply “not actively getting worse”?
Who says it’s not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating “history” in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
It’s not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It’s not calling them equivalent, in fact it’s arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Who says it’s not getting worse?
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
Ah yes, because Harris isn’t as anti genocide as we want, it’s totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against “black people dying more at the hands of police”?
Even if more people die on the bottom track than are shown in the drawing, it will still be true that no one dies on the bottom who isn’t also dying on the top, and that more people in total die on the top. (IMO, and I think in the opinion of the first group of people I described.)
If the folks who don’t want to vote Harris due to Gaza are doing so for some reason other than what I outlined above, I’d love to hear it. Because if they aren’t trying to get rid of the Trolley than why the fuck would they be taking action that increases the chance of the trolley going to the top track?
Weird to repeat myself, since the original words are there. Let’s see if you ignore the point again:
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
I skipped over it because it’s practically a non-sequitur, and it’s nearly the same argument as Trump vs Harris on Gaza. You’ve got the party that might do something good and you’ve got the party that definitely will do nothing good, and you have no other viable option. Not a difficult choice at that point, for me.
It’s dumb of me to question your lever pulling logic?
No, but it’s pretty disingenuous to suggest that either all problems must have been solved or else I should make a choice that might let Trump in.
I’m not here to shame anyone for how they are voting, and don’t really care what you think of my “lever puling logic” - I was trying to get at the heart of your trolley analogy.
And yes, it’s exactly as stated - you are very focused on the Trolley, while I consider it an unstoppable force at this time. All the rest of our “argument” is just restating that difference more explicitly.
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is “fixed” the only bar that matters, or is “better” not still valuable? What about simply “not actively getting worse”? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You’ve asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it’s a gotcha.
Let’s imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren’t, but let’s pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn’t believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there’s an issue but hasn’t fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it’s entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don’t want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
Who says it’s not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating “history” in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
https://lemmy.world/post/21294216
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
It’s not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It’s not calling them equivalent, in fact it’s arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
Ah yes, because Harris isn’t as anti genocide as we want, it’s totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against “black people dying more at the hands of police”?
Even if more people die on the bottom track than are shown in the drawing, it will still be true that no one dies on the bottom who isn’t also dying on the top, and that more people in total die on the top. (IMO, and I think in the opinion of the first group of people I described.)
If the folks who don’t want to vote Harris due to Gaza are doing so for some reason other than what I outlined above, I’d love to hear it. Because if they aren’t trying to get rid of the Trolley than why the fuck would they be taking action that increases the chance of the trolley going to the top track?
Weird to repeat myself, since the original words are there. Let’s see if you ignore the point again:
I skipped over it because it’s practically a non-sequitur, and it’s nearly the same argument as Trump vs Harris on Gaza. You’ve got the party that might do something good and you’ve got the party that definitely will do nothing good, and you have no other viable option. Not a difficult choice at that point, for me.
So the last time you pulled the lever for Harris, Democrats solved all non-Palestinian-genocide related issues?
It’s dumb of me to question your lever pulling logic?
No, but it’s pretty disingenuous to suggest that either all problems must have been solved or else I should make a choice that might let Trump in.
I’m not here to shame anyone for how they are voting, and don’t really care what you think of my “lever puling logic” - I was trying to get at the heart of your trolley analogy.
And yes, it’s exactly as stated - you are very focused on the Trolley, while I consider it an unstoppable force at this time. All the rest of our “argument” is just restating that difference more explicitly.
Are we looking at two different memes??