The “Uncommitted” movement seeking a change in the Democratic Party’s approach to the war in Gaza on Thursday announced it is not ready to support Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris — while urging voters not to back Republican nominee Donald Trump or third-party candidates who could help Trump win the November election.
The “Uncommitted” group “opposes a Donald Trump presidency, whose agenda includes plans to accelerate the killing in Gaza while intensifying the suppression of anti-war organizing,” the statement continues. Additionally, the group is “not recommending a third-party vote in the Presidential election, especially as third party votes in key swing states could help inadvertently deliver a Trump presidency given our country’s broken electoral college system.”
They also acknowledge Biden can stop the killing.
Two people refusing to vote for anyone or voting for a third party has the exact same impact as one person voting for Trump instead of Kamala.
TIL that 92 million non voters actually voted for Trump in 2020, but somehow Biden became president.
“Well, let’s cross our fingers and hope the Democrats can get out the vote despite our virtue signalling.”
This announcement is just pointless.
At least we’re not getting the ‘vote third party’ spiel. I’ll never hold a person’s opinions on the Dems against them. I just don’t want anything done or suggested that will help Trump and his merry band of assholes.
I can get behind this. Sure, we can criticise Team Blue for slow-dragging their feet on protecting Palestinians. Never said we couldn’t. That said, there’s clear consequences to a Trump victory. The Uncommitted have made it clear they grasp this and ask you to vote for Harris, even if they can’t endorse Harris. Staying home, voting third party, or heaven forbid, voting Trump will just make things in the Middle East FAR worse.
“Voting is just a way to pick the person that will be sitting across from me at the negotiation table next year”, is one of the ways to think about it.
Harris‘ policy on Israel is ambiguous, weak and too-little-too-late. But you’ll get further trying to influence her administration than Trump 2.0.
Well, your thought experiment actually just agrees with the uncommitted, since if they don’t want to negotiate now that they want your vote, what hope you have after you lost that leverage?
I do agree with the uncommitted: voting third party because of Palestine is for idiots.
That said, if you are a political activist, and you think your one vote is the only thing you have to offer, you need a new ducking job.
The inability to think this way is why we’re in this mess. Happy Cake Day!
The ambiguity is ironically a good sign. That she isn’t outright committed to the status quo. But rather not willing to signal her actual position. If she came out strongly against Israel and for Palestine. Unfortunately that would be a large hindrance to her candidacy in the current climate.
It’s a shame that those illegally occupying Palestine have such influence over our government. Especially after their terrorist attacks of the last few days. Not to mention the decades long slow genocide that’s only accelerated in the last year.
For real, that’s all I’ve been saying whenever people start come in and start bashing on Harris and pushing false equivalence. Like, yeah, Biden is super bad on his policy towards Israel and Gaza; I HOPE Harris will be better; I KNOW Trump will be worse.
That’s it. That’s the whole dynamic. That’s the only two choices we have as members of the American electorate.
bashing on Harris and pushing false equivalence
You claim the Ds and Rs are the same, but you can very clearly see that the Ds are in favor of 10% less infanticide.
That’s the only two choices we have
The genocidiers have us by the balls, folks. Nothing you can do but voice your full throated support for one of them.
The genocidiers have us by the balls, folks. Nothing you can do but voice your full throated support for one of them.
Not only that, you must also shout down anybody who says they don’t want to support genocide. Only full loyalty is acceptable.
Oh so you’re likely voting dem anyway because you aren’t stupid and/or racist but you also say Harris should abide by US law and stop arms sales to Israel? WOW LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A TRUMP SUPPORTER HERE BOYS
It is deeply fucked the way social media has conflated opposing genocide and supporting The Other Team.
Really reeks of the Bush Era “You’re with us or you’re with the Terrorists!” when it came time to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.
Literally. Many people seem to have forgotten all the lessons from 9/11 and the clusterfuck that followed
It’s weird when you talk to yourself like this.
What do you mean?
You claim the Ds and Rs are the same, but you can very clearly see that the Ds are in favor of 10% less infanticide.
Be fair. They’re in favor of 10% slower infanticide.
Don’t put words in my mouth. You are a part of the problem that I’m highlighting.
So you’re saying I should still vote for infanticide? I don’t want that kind of blood on my hands. That’s the issue in the Trolley Problem.
I don’t want that kind of blood on my hands.
The joke of the modern American electoral system is that all the “viable” candidates are bloody. And if you abstain from voting or vote third party, you’re accused of supporting the winning candidate, regardless of your personal politics.
That is, I think, a big part of what drives the street protests. Americans who don’t want to be complicit in this barbarity have no other actionable way to express their condemnation.
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Not voting is just allowing the worse option which still puts blood on your hands. Inaction still has consequences.
We don’t live in a world where we have the ability to be completely pure, it’s an option that simply doesn’t exist unfortunately. :(
We need some way to denote “not gloating.”
The path to ending the conflict is through boycotts, not the president. But that takes time, so 10% less killing makes sense as a stop gap.
There is precedent for this. See apartheid South Africa. Palestinian freedom will seem impossible until it becomes inevitable.
The path to ending the conflict is through boycotts, not the president.
US House overwhelmingly passes anti-BDS resolution
We’ve already seen individual states go so far as to issue state sanctions aimed at BDS movements. US House Resolution 246 seems to be an exercise in vote counting by the AIPAC Lobby to advance a national bill to the same effect.
Palestinian freedom will seem impossible until it becomes inevitable.
The South African Apartheid system likely would have held up indefinitely if the US was the only country involved deciding its fate. And the Afrikaners had far less influence over the US Congress than the Israel lobby.
Sure, we can criticise Team Blue for slow-dragging their feet on protecting Palestinians.
HA.
Sure, we can criticise Team Blue for slow-dragging their feet on protecting Palestinians.
Incredibly generous way to put it. They are providing the weapons that maim and kill the innocent children. I criticise them for the blood on their hands
Biden isn’t dragging his feet…
He’s moving at light ing speed (for his age) to support Israel’s genocide in anyway he can, including going around congress illegally to avoid a delay of just a few days.
I just hate how all the blame is put on voters, it’s literally Kamala and her campaign teams job to get votes, and despite how much they hate the thought, that means giving Dem voters what Dem voters want.
And they don’t want to be citizens of pretty much the only country still supporting the genocide by sending munitions. Especially when it’s a violation of the
LegacyLehey law and bare minimum we should be demanding Israel track the use of US supplied munitions.Like. You’re completely underselling the damage Biden and other party leaders are causing…
And then claiming you can’t understand why people don’t like him or the party’s stance.
Why dont you spend your time and effort trying to stop a genocide instead of telling people they have to support a genocide?
Your way even if we win. Still a genocide.
If we demand Kamala and party leadership stop breaking US and international law, and they actually listen
Kamala could moonwalk into the oval office and Israel wouldn’t be able to continue their genocide.
What’s so hard about picking the best path?
We can stop trump and genocide or just stop trump.
Seems like an easy choice to me
I mean if I understand you correctly you’re saying bascially the same thing as OP - can hold Biden/Harris feet to the fire while working to re-elect Kamala and defeat Trump.
And the fun part is these aren’t my words. These are the words of the “Uncommitted” faction that wants to hold Democrats’ feet to the fire. They’re saying that at the moment, there’s bigger fish to fry – a MAGAt movement that would make everything Team Blue has done look like child’s play in comparison. So, Mr. Give Some Fucks isn’t just arguing with me. He’s arguing with the guys and gals actually advocating for Palestinians.
Do you honestly think they give a fuck?
Sorry, can’t answer that question. I’ll be Rule 3’d if I did. :3
Well, duh. Anyone who didn’t know this hasn’t been paying attention. He’s (Trump) said as much, himself.
And his advisor on, and ambassador to, Israel literally wrote a book promoting a one state solution where he said that the US has a Biblical obligation to help Israel win. His ultimate plan is to set up an apartheid state where Palestinians do not have the same rights as Israelis.
It’s good to get that out explicitly, because it has been the focus of a lot of misinformation out there.
The cause of Palestinians is not served by a second Trump presidency. Preventing it should be a major aim of any pro-Palestinian advocate.
That it’s the advocacy group trying to hold Biden and Harris accountable for the continuation of the atrocities in Palestine saying this should make it clear. The actual people on the ground may feel strongly about Palestinian civil rights, they know where their bread is buttered and that the other realistic alternative in this election is “Orange Hitler”, to use another poster’s euphemism, is just plain horrible.
I think everyone who is being intellectually honest knows full well that Trump would be worse. The problem seems to be that the Democratic party has decided it can take the votes of the left wing of its party for granted. If the left is not willing to actually follow through and withhold their votes, then the Democrats know that they never have to appease them. It’s really a lose-lose situation until the Harris campaign shows some moral courage or takes seriously the possibility of losing votes over this issue.
“If the left is not willing to actually follow through and withhold their votes”
Wthholding your vote only helps Trump. Candidates know they have to appease the folks with money. We’re fighting the wrong bad guy - focus on reversing Citizens United.
Exactly
Exactly. We know how bad Trump is, but Biden in his disastrous “hug Netanyahu” policy went out of his way to not just ignore pro-Palestinian voices but actively insult them. He said “I have zero trust of Palestinians” and publicly supported the invasion of Al Shifa hospital despite the ridiculous and debunked claim that there was a 3 story underground Hamas base beneath it. He overrode his advisors and removed pro-Palestine language in all his October and November speeches. He met with Israeli victims but never met a single Palestinian one and even had his tour bus detour around towns in Michigan that had too many Arab-Americans. He claimed he was looking for peace but vetoed ceasefire attempts and bashed Palestinians in general. (He later privately told people he meant to bash Hamas and shouldn’t have use the words interchangeably, but never apologized).
It’s one thing to hold your nose and vote for Biden, but it’s quite another to vote for him when he’s so unapologetically anti-Palestinian. And his attempt to get Arab-Americans to vote for him when he helped kill their relatives is to ignore them and say “Trump would be worse.” That’s not a winning strategy and he wants to claim he both needs our votes to win but also that we aren’t politically relevant.
I hope Biden retires in shame and that Harris does better. She already had been meeting with Palestinian-American families when Biden refused to be seen with one.
People who are uncommitted because of Gaza are fools to think that their reticence won’t have any consequences in the country.
Having said that there is no hope for Gazans from US since both the parties are bought and paid for by the Israelis.
Russia take note - US only lets those foreign countries to influence the election who are willing to buy both the parties.
Nobody is claiming that and you’re attacking a strawman.
The problem is we don’t want to reward politicians for their bad behavior “because Trump is worse” or get blood on our own hands by voting for someone who will continue the same deadly failed policies. Have you ever heard of the Trolley Problem? It’s not as straightforward as you think.
The article is about the group publicly saying it is important to vote with the intention of keeping Donald out even while they cannot endorse Harris. Maybe you should join them?
This trolley problem has a large number of the same people across two tracks, but one of the tracks has a large number of additional people that the other track bypasses. It is not a complicated trolley problem to solve.
“A philosophy problem that has existed for thousands of years can be easily solved by me!”
That tells me all I need to know about you.
If you want to try some reading comprehension you’ll see I disagree it is a trolley problem at all. Pretending it is despite having the difference pointed out does tell us a lot about you.
I think on this issue I’ll consider the thoughts of the group in the article, instead of someone dead set on describing the issue as something it is not.
The Trolley Problem is all about how there’s frequently no good options in a scenario. People are gonna die whether or not you make a decision, and you’d be right to walk away from that lever if there were equal amounts of death on each track. But there frequently are not equal situations. Six people versus one person. A kid versus an old man. 7 Nuns versus 10 Lawyers. The person you love the most in the world versus the person you hate the most in the world.
Sure, you have to be discerning and look for any tracks that don’t have something tied to them. That’s why I mention that self-driving cars, thanks to their sensors, don’t have to hit the bus full of school children or the SUV full of nuns – they’ve seen the bus and the SUV and the idiot merging into traffic and the idiot on their phone and everything else due to their 27 different cameras and their LADAR and RADAR and so on, and to the advanced AI computer that can pay attention to all those sensors at once, and have calculated a path to escape to the track that doesn’t have anyone being killed in the phony concocted examples of why AI cars are bad.
But in regards to the Presidency, there literally is a Trolley Problem here, and it IS as straight forward as you say it isn’t. Come January of next year, one of two people will take the Oath of Office.
- Kamala Harris, who you say is a genocidal maniac who will enable the mass murder and enslavement of Gaza by the Israelis…
- Donald Trump, who himself has said is a genocidal maniac who will not only enable but accelerate the mass murder and enslavement of Gaza by the Israelis, and who plans on bringing that treatment right back to home for LGBTQ+, minorities, non-Christians, and women.
Jill Stein, Cornel West, Chase Oliver (seriously, I had to go look this guy up!), and whoever else promises you they can fix a Broken Washington won’t be elected to that office. Period. End of line. All they’ll accomplish is taking votes away from the major party candidate closest aligned to your positions, and ensure the other guy gets into office. The track of no genocide is an illusion, a mirage that fades the moment you look at it too hard. I know. It sucks. We all want more options for people to represent us. But those are the rules, and have been the rules for literally this country’s entire existence. It sucks, but denying reality won’t help. Come January, one of two people will take the oath of office: a Republican and a Democrat, just like it has been for the past 150 years, and even before, albeit with Federalist vs. Anti-Federalist or Democratic-Republican vs. Whig.
I’m going to vote for the person who will do the least harm to those I care about. I’m going to push and push hard for everyone else to join me in voting for her. I’m going to constantly call out this ‘but third party!’ stuff. Because for everything you have accused Harris of allowing, Trump will not only do that, but a dozen other hateful things.
All that talk and you still missed the point. Why do you think it’s so hard for others to pull the lever for Harris despite that? Harris is part of an administration that helped kill family members of my neighbors. If you can’t see why this makes it hard, I can’t help you.
Because Russia has a long history of propping up third party distractors, especially those who are friendly to Russia’s causes, and another of their tools, useful idiots and bought-and-paid for bad actors (note: Mods, not accusing THIS poster of this, but you can’t disagree such people exist and operate here on Lemmy and on other forums across the Internet) spread bullshit across the web to convince people that the Shitgibbon with his plans to directly enable his fellow authoritarian shithead to exterminate and/or subjugate the Palestinians AND his plans to let Russia do the same RE: Ukraine AND his plans to bring that same subjugation/extermination to LGBTQ+, non-Christian, minority, female, and non-Conservative populations HERE IN THE USA is somehow better than letting Team Biden/Harris have 4 more years.
You don’t like me calling that out? Well, you can fuck right off because I’m not going to stop.
Not everyone who opposes Biden’s policies on Gaza is a Russian plant. We know third parties are not viable, but we also want to pressure Democrats. This isn’t hard, and you thinking this is all Russian conspiracy and that you wanna curse out your political allies is a Feinstein-level of out-of-touch rambling. Peace.
What, just because he basically said he would and loves dictators?
UN votes against Israel’s occupation of Palestine: Will it change anything?
Seems like the rest of the international community is moving on this whether or not the US leadership approves of it.
Barking up the “Who will you vote for?” tree, when neither American candidate for President has expressed an interest in ending the holocaust in Gaza or prosecuting the litany of war crimes in surrounding Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan, seems pointless.
If anything “Vote for Kamala because hey remember that genocide we’re financing via Israel?” seems like its going to scare away more voters than it attracts.
Unsurprising. While people opposed to any criticism of the democrats’ self defeating and inhumane policy on this issue like to pretend it’s all a pro Trump psy op, it’s actually more of a DON’T SUPPORT GENOCIDE YOU EVIL FUCKS type of thing.
But for the dems it’s fine because the electoral college has the whole country by the balls I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who are you going to vote for dumb dumb? Orange hitler? Spoiler candidates? Lol didn’t think so, send the bombs boyos
Try reading the article.
What makes you say that? Is there something I’m missing?
The Uncommitted group “opposes a Donald Trump presidency, whose agenda includes plans to accelerate the killing in Gaza while intensifying the suppression of anti-war organizing,” the statement continues. Additionally, the group is “not recommending a third-party vote in the Presidential election, especially as third party votes in key swing states could help inadvertently deliver a Trump presidency given our country’s broken electoral college system.”
I agree with them. Including about this:
Vice President Harris’s unwillingness to shift on unconditional weapons policy or to even make a clear campaign statement in support of upholding existing U.S. and international human rights law has made it impossible for us to endorse her
Although I would say obviously people should still vote for her because the political system is broken.
I was responding to this “news” because it is what many of us have been saying the whole time, only to be met with accusations that this must mean we think trump is better. Obviously he would be much worse for this and everything else. But that doesn’t excuse the dems position.
I don’t disagree with any of that. I didn’t read your previous comment as opposing the system in a productive way. The system is garbage but we still have to participate or it becomes worse.
You will likely get the accusations anywhere you are omitting the part about voting for Harris despite opposing an endorsement. That is due to the prolific MAGA campaigners on here urging people to vote third party and using this issue as the reason.
You will likely get the accusations anywhere you are omitting the part about voting for Harris despite opposing an endorsement.
Yeah absolutely. But I don’t really see why anyone should need to add a voting disclaimer if they are criticising the government’s support for a genocide. People can downvote all they want, some things are just more important than party politics.
That is due to the prolific MAGA campaigners on here urging people to vote third party and using this issue as the reason.
Yeah I’m sure there are such people and they can get fucked. But in my experience the people receiving these accusations mainly just don’t want the government to support Israel unconditionally. But as you said, without the disclaimer, these people are accused of a bunch of stuff.
Is it really so hard for people to believe that others actually just care about preventing mass murder? The fact someone can say something like that and get many responses talking about Trump and the electoral college system rather than acknowledging the legitimacy of the problem being raised is truly disgusting to me.
