cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/20133423
[interview with Dr. Hassan Abdel Salam, from Abandon Harris movement]
Ann Garrison, BAR Contributing Editor 04 Sep 2024
Removed by mod
Not liking a right wing pro-genocide candidate is a Russian twitter psyop?
Are you not clear that this is definitely going to be dramatically worse if Trump gets back in office? No one is Talking about abandoning Trump, so it makes it very questionable.
No one is Talking about abandoning Trump, so it makes it very questionable.
Do you think the people who would abandon Harris over these issues are pro Trump to begin with? How would they abandon him if not?
People like Trump because he is a pro-genocide right winger, Kamala is supposed to be his counter.
So, the goal is to erode support for a better option (not a good or best option) so that the killing can accelerate and spill into more countries? Having her in office gives more possibility to influence and change policy. Trump would be a spiteful response, most likely.
We live in a crappy reality.
What is the goal?
Having her in office gives more possibility to influence and change policy.
Based on what and using what influence? The genocidal apartheid has been around basically as long as Israel has, but just looking at the bombing aspect of the genocide.
Since oct-7 Biden and Kamala have both supported Israels right to “defensive” genocide.
Since oct-7 protesters have been trying to change that with no change on the issue from the administration.
Why would that change once they’ve already won another 4 years if it hasn’t worked so far?
The only leverage you have is your vote, if you are pledging to give it to them no matter what, and especially if they’ve already won with your vote…they have no reason to listen to you and millions to listen to the Israeli lobby.
You’re advocating we handle democrats support for Genocide the same way democrats handle Israels support for Genocide, just give them whatever they want and ask nicely for them to stop? No, I will not normalize genocide and appease the ones carrying it out.
What is the goal?
To not support a genocidal right wing candidate and make it known that they will not have the support of the anti-genocide constituency.
She can either oppose the genocide and get our vote, or she can continue supporting the genocide and not get our vote.
It’s not like we have been secretly plotting or hiding this. It’s up to her.
If she continues to support the genocide and loses, it’s only her own fault for not giving up on her support of the genocide, not ours for having the absolute lowest standards possible of “anti-genocide”…and maybe it will send a message that support for Genocide is not a winning strategy for the future.
Lol, this is from Lemmy.ml
If they abandon Harris, Trump will, at best, round them up into detention camps and deport them.
You should be fighting against genocide, not advocating for lesser evil genocide.
We are advocating against Genocide. What do you think repeatedly calling for a cease fire is?
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
“Let’s get the deal done so we can get a cease-fire to end the war. Let’s bring the hostages home, and let’s provide much-needed relief to the Palestinian people.”
That is NOT a “pro genocide” position.
For that, you have to look at Trump:
https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d
“They’re losing the PR war. They’re losing it big. But they’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
Harris - We need a cease fire to save the Palestinian people.
Trump - They just aren’t killing people fast enough.
One of these two people will be the next President. If enough people reject Harris, we get Trump.
We are advocating against Genocide. What do you think repeatedly calling for a cease fire is?
It is being ignorable so long as you wield no leverage. If you believe in electoralism, your current leverage is your vote. If you telegraph your vote for Harris then you are not really opposing a genocide so much as declaring that you will be troubled while you bear witness to it. You announce your pain and those of the systematically murdered civilians along with your inflinching support to continue both.
They don’t even have to call your bluff because you aren’t threatening anything. What ceasefire talk was there at the “joyous” DNC that had an Israeli speaj and the candidate pledge unconditional support?
Have you noticed that the Biden administration has attempted to make “ceasefire” to mean a temporary pause and hostage exchange? The call for a ceasefire is already a weak line and easy to coopt and ignore, in part because it is a vague “pro-peace” rather than pro-justice line that does not require any actual engagement or action or call to learn on the part of its supporters. See how cheap it has been to keep your support? They’ve given you nothing.
Here is a new line: end weapons and funding to Israel, stop the genocide now. Seems pretty modest to me.
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas […]
Yes this was part of the kayfabe I mentioned that included redefining the meaning of ceasefire. That was Harris meeting with the openly genocidal Gantz that will only ever want escalated destruction of Palestinians while introducing what would become a redefining and cooption of ceasefire.
Previous ceasefires with Isrsel have been predicated on arms embargoes. How do you square that with Harris’ announcement of unconditional support?
That is NOT a “pro genocide” position.
If you continue reading you will discover that your politicians lie and mislead. This is Harris trying to keep your support while continuing Biden’s policies. It is literally the same line as Biden’s and their only policy proposal is the aforementioned temporary pause and exchange.
Israel just assassinated the person they were supposed to be negotiating an alleged ceasefire with. What have Biden, Harris, et al had to say about this blatant undermining of their supposed flagship peace plan?
Israel has just begun a similar campaign against the West Bank. They killed an American activist that had been organizing in the US against complicity with Israeli perpetrated genocide. What is the response to the exact opposite thing happening? The most powerful people in the party, with the highest office, and literal control over the military, is not throwing its weight around to get Israel to stop. It is doing the opposite: arms, aid, and using its military to go after Houthis - who act in solidarity with Gaza - instead. The facts speak for themselves.
This is why the Uncommitted Movement switched to an arms embarho demand. Because this weaseling appropriation convinced liberals desperate to have any excuse to vote for their gemocider.
For that, you have to look at Trump:
Trump has no voter contingent that he could maybe lose if he didn’t feign sympathy for Palestinians. He doesn’t need to do the “Lucy holding a football” thing on this particular issue.
One of these two people will be the next President. If enough people reject Harris, we get Trump.
The current Biden-Harris administration is genociding Gaza via its complete support for the Israeli settler colonial project, including a systematic civilian bombing campaign against housing, hospitals, food distribution, schools, and shelters. It has cut off electricity and water. If you vote for this, if you advocate for voting for this, you are complicit in genocide.
I would be happy to explain how lesset-evil cheerleading voting is self-defeating illogic, but I would hope that having blood on your hands would be enough.
I agree that as long as Bibi is in charge we have no actual leverage to get things done because he doesn’t give two shits what anyone in the US says or does, but that’s not the same thing as saying Harris is “pro genocide”, she’s not.
Blaming Netanyahu is a copout that distracts from two salient facts:
-
The US hasn’t actually done anything against Israel, let alone withheld from actively supporting its genocide. It makes no sense to sat, “oh well I guess we could never make things happen due to Netanyahu”. Nothing has been tried! But it does place the focus for responsibility on a foreign leader over whom you have no expectation of influence, whereas every person in the US can fight against genocide supported by the Biden-Harris admin.
-
Israelis have, on average, incredibly dehumanizing attitudes towards Palestinians. Netanyahu isn’t even that far right in Israel. They broke that rapist out of jail and are parading him around on TV. This is typical of ethnic supremacist settler colonisrs, it has happened several times over the last 200 years, we know the pattern. The protests against Netsnyahu, and his lower approval ratings, are tied to sentiments about not being harsh enough on Gaza and not retrieving the hostages, not the genocide of Palestinians, who they call terrorists. Who they believe should not be shown on television in a sympathetic light, that it should be censored. All of this is to say that the genocide in Gaza is very popular in Israel. What is unpopular are the impacts to the settlers. Economic problems, exodus from the north, and an inability to return the hostages.
but that’s not the same thing as saying Harris is “pro genocide”, she’s not.
The Biden-Harris administration is supporting a genocide. That genocide depends on the consent and military support of the most powerful country on the planet. Both Biden and Harris are providing thus unconditionsl support. They are sending the weapons. They are sending the money. They are building the little pier that was used to land and extract military personnel. They are fighting the ICJ on Israel’s behalf. They are pressuring every country they can on Israel’s behslf. They are trying to undermine the Houthis’ blockade done in solidarity with Gaza. Faced with a domestic anti-genocide movement, they are refusing to pressure college campuses to not sic cops (et al) on protesters and feed into the bad faith rhetoric that to oppose Israel’s genocide is to be antisemitic. When corronating their new candidate, part of this genocidal administration, they brought on an Israeli speaker, pledged unconditional material support to Israel, and shut out a potential Palestinian soeaker.
Harris is not just pro-genocide, she has assisted this one and has pledged to materially support its continuation.
Bibi and the Likud property are literally the problem. They take US support intended for the legit support of the Iron Dome and re-direct it into war crimes.
Please see: everything I just said that contradicts overemphasizing “the problem” just being Netanyahu being obstinate. I wrote out two main points with many specifics to support and explain my meaning.
And the US knowingly funds the genocide in Gaza. It isn’t an oopsie. They have only increased funding since Oct 7.
-
that’s not the same thing as saying Harris is “pro genocide”, she’s not.
Kamala: builds gas chamber "please don’t use this for genocide!
Hitler: uses it for genocide.
Kamala: builds another “I’m serious, please don’t use it for genocide, I will keep building them no matter what but please stop”
Hitler: uses it for genocide
Kamala: builds another “this genocide is getting old, look at all those other countries opposing you for it! Please stop, if not I’ll have to fight those other countries for you!”
Hitler: continues genocide
You: wow look how anti-genocide Kamala is! She keeps asking Hitler to stop doing genocide! While directly helping him do genocide and even vowing to defend him from others who would stop him! It’s the fact she asks him to stop that matters not the enabling!
That is not what Harris is doing.
It’s not?
-
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. So, I just had a frank and constructive meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu. I told him that I will always ensure that Israel is able to defend itself, including from Iran and Iran-backed militias, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
-
From when I was a young girl collecting funds to plant trees for Israel to my time in the United States Senate and now at the White House, I’ve had an unwavering commitment to the existence of the state of Israel, to its security, and to the people of Israel.
-
Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization. On October 7, Hamas triggered this war when it massacred 1,200 innocent people, including 44 Americans.
-
It is important for the American people to remember the war in Gaza is not a binary issue. However, too often the conversation is binary, when the reality is anything but.
-
So, I ask my fellow Americans to help encourage efforts to acknowledge the complexity, the nuance, and the history of the region.
July 25, after a meeting with Netanyahu…
-
And let me be clear. And let me be clear. I will always stand up for Israel’s right to defend itself, and I will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself, because the people of Israel must never again face the horror that a terrorist organization called Hamas caused on Oct. 7,…
-
And know this: I will never hesitate to take whatever action is necessary to defend our forces and our interests against Iran and Iran-backed terrorists.
Aug 22, DNC Speech.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/23/us/politics/kamala-harris-speech-transcript.html
-
Harris also did not expose any daylight between herself and Biden on the Middle East when asked directly if she would be doing anything differently, including limiting arm sales to Israel.
-
“We have to get a deal done. This war must end, and we must get a deal that is about getting the hostages out,” she said.
Aug 29, interview with CNN.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/29/politics/kamala-harris-tim-walz-cnntv/index.html
- Vice President Harris will never hesitate to take whatever action is necessary to protect U.S. forces and interests from Iran and Iran-backed terrorist groups. Vice President Harris will always stand up for Israel’s right to defend itself and she will always ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself. She and President Biden are working to end the war in Gaza, such that Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the suffering in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self-determination.
The issues tab on her website
-
If you believe Harris is advocating for a ceasefire you deserve Trump
Harris is repeatedly saying that and advocating for it, including when she met with Bibi, so what’s your evidence to not believe it?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/25/politics/harris-netanyahu-israel-hamas-ceasefire/index.html
“it is time for this war to end and end in a way where Israel is secure, all the hostages are released, the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can exercise their right to freedom, dignity and self-determination.”
The vice president said there has been “hopeful movement” in the talks and that she pushed the prime minister to bring the conflict to a close.
“As I just told Prime Minister Netanyahu, it is time to get this deal done,” she said. “So to everyone who has been calling for a ceasefire, and to everyone who yearns for peace, I see you and I hear you.”
And Putin says he wants Harris elected instead of Trump.
Putin is not an honest broker and is known for being a master manipulator.
And Harris words are reliable?
I agree, we shouldn’t vote for the SPD, they’re not really any different than the NSDAP, we should send a message by not voting in the election of 1932!
The SPD wasn’t doing a genocide.
The left argument against SPD advocated for voting for the KPD, not skipping voting. Aside from stark political disagreement, the SPD had mobilized the Freikorps against the left, killing many of their compatriots, including party leadership. The SPD was rarely in the fight against the Nazis taking direct action (terrorizing cities), that was communists and anarchists. The SPD were the polite progressives but still far to the left of Democrats today. To the left of Sanders. But when push came to shove and Nazi brownshirts were given license to fight and arrest communists, the SPD was useless, having no idea how to oppose the right.
However, the parties more similar to Democrats were the center and nationalist parties (e.g., Papen and Hindenburg) that ended up collaborating with the right and, eventually, making Hitler chancellor rather than support the left. There is an echo of this in this very thread, and in your comment.
I highly recommend actually reading this history.
Pfft, they’re all the same, no difference between them really, not like either is going to actually change anything, why bother to vote at all?
The “Left” at this time, specifically in Russia, was purging the shit out of everyone, and committing the Holodomor.
But the argument that both sides are the same is very clear: Hitler and Stalin were both very much aligned when it came to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, including the protocol for splitting Eastern Europe.
Couldn’t be that much daylight between them? Both a bunch of warmongers, Stalin even invaded Finland 3 months after the war started.
Pfft, they’re all the same, no difference between them really, not like either is going to actually change anything, why bother to vote at all?
I haven’t said anything like that. I have, however, said that you should oppose gemociders and not vote for them.
The “Left” at this time, specifically in Russia, was purging the shit out of everyone, and committing the Holodomor.
The SPD is German and the analogy was about voting in German politics enabling Hitler. What you’ve said is neither here nor there.
But the argument that both sides are the same is very clear: Hitler and Stalin […]
I thought the next paragraphs would return to the subject at hand, but they didn’t. I would be happy to discuss Hitler and Stalin in a different thread. Feel free to start one. But it doesn’t address anything here.
