And general lower standards of living to most, outside the party or political class like the Politburo?
Do you actually, literally believe that the standard of living was lower for regular people in the USSR (the world’s first spacefaring nation, at the time the second most powerful country in the world, a country that eliminated famines completely once they’d dealt with the consequences of WW2, a country where by the 80s, people were twice as likely as a modern American to take a vacation away from home) than for peasants in the Russian Empire?
Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you just completely ignorant about the topic in spite of speaking so authoritatively about it?
What “I” believe is irrelevant. History is the point. So yes, tens of millions died during Communism. If you are focusing on Russia, sure, let’s go there. First and foremost, during the later part of the 20th century until the Fall, Russian was essentially a corrupt, authoritarian State. This is widely known. Plus, I have old Russian friends who lived there, so I will certainly trust them over some possible ideologue on the internet. You know that living while you are concerned of being on the States radar over wrong think is not necessarily something that I would call a quality life. I have Romanian friends whose parents lived under the shadow of communist, oppressive propaganda and forced group think. Russia is not unique but they were one of the most forceful. One of the things that many pro-Communists never like to talk about was what happened to the people who society who did not want to LARP along. Generally they were re-educated or considered traitors or enemies of the State. Feel free to look it up.
Regarding vacations, makes sense that since you were seen like a cog in a machine, that for most, vacations, mandated by the State would be given generally, all at once and time off depended on a number of factors.
https://www.rbth.com/history/334213-soviet-union-month-vacations
Worth noting that the above is a Pro-Russian site, so there is bound to be some bias.
Secondly, millions died due to political persecutions, like in the Great Purge, at least 1.2+ million Kulaks, just to mention one. Their crime being only slightly better off plebs. On top of that millions of others died of famines, in order to get the USSR “going.” Same happen under Mao, in fact way more died under Mao as they too played the class game as to label citizens into different bins. They called them the 5 different black categories, partly borrowed from the Russian approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Black_Categories
The presumption that I would be dishonest is silly and reeks to bad faith. Do not just try to cherry pick a time period for what seems to be benefit. How many millions dead over governmental ideology shift does the US have? Also, would you not say that the standard of living in say, the USA was superior in the aggregate to Russia’s during the same time period, or would you deny that?
Plus, I have old Russian friends who lived there, so I will certainly trust them over some possible ideologue on the internet.
The vast majority of Russians who actually lived in the Soviet Union regret its fall, your friend’s are outliers. This information is easy to find if you do literally any research.
One of the things that many pro-Communists never like to talk about was what happened to the people who society who did not want to LARP along. Generally they were re-educated or considered traitors or enemies of the State.
Oh wow, the state imprisoned people that didn’t follow laws and otherwise threatened it? That might be uniquely concerning if every single human society in history didn’t do that.
Feel free to look it up.
Regarding vacations, makes sense that since you were seen like a cog in a machine, that for most, vacations, mandated by the State would be given generally, all at once and time off depended on a number of factors.
Most Americans do not get a vacation at all, which group is getting treated like a cog in a machine again?
Worth noting that the above is a Pro-Russian site, so there is bound to be some bias.
“Here’s a source I am using to make an argument, but if you find anything contradictory to my argument in this source, it doesn’t count.”
Then don’t link the site.
Found this person who claims that some type of vacations given to workers would be booked, group vacations. Not my idea of a vacation, however, if you ask me.
The sort of vacation I take, and that most Americans take, is that we either can’t afford to travel even domestically so we take a few days off here and there to catch up on housework or we work somewhere that doesn’t even offer vacation time and we just take zero days off through the year.
Your idea of a vacation sounds like pampered shit that has only even been available to the most privileged. Of course you prefer this highly stratified and brutal society, you benefit from it.
So, no, more time off is not necessarily the only metric that should matter.
One, it’s a hugely important one when discussing the quality of life of a typical citizen.
Two, it wasn’t the only thing we were discussing. Are you really not understanding that most regular Americans can’t afford to travel anywhere?
Secondly, millions died due to political persecutions, like in the Great Purge, at least 1.2+ million Kulaks, just to mention one.
Nazi sympathizers and famine opportunists aren’t gonna get much sympathy from me.
Their crime being only slightly better off plebs.
You’re leaving out the part where they destroyed crops and livestock during a famine because they were upset they couldn’t price gouge their neighbors who were starving to death.
On top of that millions of others died of famines, in order to get the USSR “going.” Same happen under Mao, in fact way more died under Mao
Oh wow, millions died of famine in the early USSR? Tell me, prior to the USSR (which, remember, this argument started because you claimed that things were not better in the USSR than they had been in the fucking Russian Empire), how often did they have famines? About once a decade right?
There were three famines in the Russian Empire in the 20th century. The Russian Empire existed for less than two decades in the 20th century.
Same story with China. The communists came in and put a stop to the famines. You’re mad that it didn’t happen instantly in the aftermath of a giant civil war, or when the whole planet invaded them, or when the Nazis were ravaging their country. Once they got a moment’s peace the famines stopped and never returned.
The presumption that I would be dishonest is silly and reeks to bad faith.
Nah, liberals constantly make dishonest arguments in bad faith. You might just be extremely bad at critical thinking, I guess, and not dishonest at all.
Do not just try to cherry pick a time period for what seems to be benefit.
The last famine was in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and then famines didn’t reoccur for the remainder of the Soviet Union’s existence.
Who’s cherry picking?
How many millions dead over governmental ideology shift does the US have?
Millions of native Americans, millions due to deprivation and deaths of despair (including famines, see the dust bowl), millions due to foreign wars of aggression, millions due to poor conditions in the American prison (slave camp) system, millions due to the ripple effects of our actions wrt “foreign policy.”
The US is one of the most evil empires in history. It’s obviously killed a massive number of people.
Also, would you not say that the standard of living in say, the USA was superior in the aggregate to Russia’s during the same time period, or would you deny that?
Probably but you’re leaving a lot out by painting with such a broad brush.
the US was geographically isolated and mostly untouched by WW2. While we sent away ships of Jews and considered whether or not to enter the war at all, the Nazis were ravaging Russia with a genocidal war of aggression. The consequences would ripple for decades.
Superior for who? I would say not for Native Americans, and not for Chinese rail workers, and certainly not for black people, and not for women who wanted to go to university, and not for striking mine workers being gunned down by Pinkertons.
American wealth came from plundering the rest of the world abroad, and theft of land and slavery at home. If you are okay with unspeakable cruelty you can really pile up some material comforts for yourself, sure.
Do you actually, literally believe that the standard of living was lower for regular people in the USSR (the world’s first spacefaring nation, at the time the second most powerful country in the world, a country that eliminated famines completely once they’d dealt with the consequences of WW2, a country where by the 80s, people were twice as likely as a modern American to take a vacation away from home) than for peasants in the Russian Empire?
Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you just completely ignorant about the topic in spite of speaking so authoritatively about it?
What “I” believe is irrelevant. History is the point. So yes, tens of millions died during Communism. If you are focusing on Russia, sure, let’s go there. First and foremost, during the later part of the 20th century until the Fall, Russian was essentially a corrupt, authoritarian State. This is widely known. Plus, I have old Russian friends who lived there, so I will certainly trust them over some possible ideologue on the internet. You know that living while you are concerned of being on the States radar over wrong think is not necessarily something that I would call a quality life. I have Romanian friends whose parents lived under the shadow of communist, oppressive propaganda and forced group think. Russia is not unique but they were one of the most forceful. One of the things that many pro-Communists never like to talk about was what happened to the people who society who did not want to LARP along. Generally they were re-educated or considered traitors or enemies of the State. Feel free to look it up.
Regarding vacations, makes sense that since you were seen like a cog in a machine, that for most, vacations, mandated by the State would be given generally, all at once and time off depended on a number of factors. https://www.rbth.com/history/334213-soviet-union-month-vacations Worth noting that the above is a Pro-Russian site, so there is bound to be some bias.
Found this person who claims that some type of vacations given to workers would be booked, group vacations. Not my idea of a vacation, however, if you ask me.
https://reddit.simo.sh/r/AskHistorians/comments/pejfni/i_am_an_average_soviet_citizen_who_wish_to_go_on/ So, no, more time off is not necessarily the only metric that should matter.
Secondly, millions died due to political persecutions, like in the Great Purge, at least 1.2+ million Kulaks, just to mention one. Their crime being only slightly better off plebs. On top of that millions of others died of famines, in order to get the USSR “going.” Same happen under Mao, in fact way more died under Mao as they too played the class game as to label citizens into different bins. They called them the 5 different black categories, partly borrowed from the Russian approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Black_Categories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://allthatsinteresting.com/how-many-people-did-stalin-kill https://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/world/major-soviet-paper-says-20-million-died-as-victims-of-stalin.html https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2010/09/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310
The presumption that I would be dishonest is silly and reeks to bad faith. Do not just try to cherry pick a time period for what seems to be benefit. How many millions dead over governmental ideology shift does the US have? Also, would you not say that the standard of living in say, the USA was superior in the aggregate to Russia’s during the same time period, or would you deny that?
Friend the ignorant here seems to be you. Cheers.
The vast majority of Russians who actually lived in the Soviet Union regret its fall, your friend’s are outliers. This information is easy to find if you do literally any research.
Oh wow, the state imprisoned people that didn’t follow laws and otherwise threatened it? That might be uniquely concerning if every single human society in history didn’t do that.
Most Americans do not get a vacation at all, which group is getting treated like a cog in a machine again?
“Here’s a source I am using to make an argument, but if you find anything contradictory to my argument in this source, it doesn’t count.”
Then don’t link the site.
The sort of vacation I take, and that most Americans take, is that we either can’t afford to travel even domestically so we take a few days off here and there to catch up on housework or we work somewhere that doesn’t even offer vacation time and we just take zero days off through the year.
Your idea of a vacation sounds like pampered shit that has only even been available to the most privileged. Of course you prefer this highly stratified and brutal society, you benefit from it.
One, it’s a hugely important one when discussing the quality of life of a typical citizen.
Two, it wasn’t the only thing we were discussing. Are you really not understanding that most regular Americans can’t afford to travel anywhere?
Nazi sympathizers and famine opportunists aren’t gonna get much sympathy from me.
You’re leaving out the part where they destroyed crops and livestock during a famine because they were upset they couldn’t price gouge their neighbors who were starving to death.
Oh wow, millions died of famine in the early USSR? Tell me, prior to the USSR (which, remember, this argument started because you claimed that things were not better in the USSR than they had been in the fucking Russian Empire), how often did they have famines? About once a decade right?
There were three famines in the Russian Empire in the 20th century. The Russian Empire existed for less than two decades in the 20th century.
Same story with China. The communists came in and put a stop to the famines. You’re mad that it didn’t happen instantly in the aftermath of a giant civil war, or when the whole planet invaded them, or when the Nazis were ravaging their country. Once they got a moment’s peace the famines stopped and never returned.
Nah, liberals constantly make dishonest arguments in bad faith. You might just be extremely bad at critical thinking, I guess, and not dishonest at all.
The last famine was in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and then famines didn’t reoccur for the remainder of the Soviet Union’s existence.
Who’s cherry picking?
Millions of native Americans, millions due to deprivation and deaths of despair (including famines, see the dust bowl), millions due to foreign wars of aggression, millions due to poor conditions in the American prison (slave camp) system, millions due to the ripple effects of our actions wrt “foreign policy.”
The US is one of the most evil empires in history. It’s obviously killed a massive number of people.
Probably but you’re leaving a lot out by painting with such a broad brush.
the US was geographically isolated and mostly untouched by WW2. While we sent away ships of Jews and considered whether or not to enter the war at all, the Nazis were ravaging Russia with a genocidal war of aggression. The consequences would ripple for decades.
Superior for who? I would say not for Native Americans, and not for Chinese rail workers, and certainly not for black people, and not for women who wanted to go to university, and not for striking mine workers being gunned down by Pinkertons.
American wealth came from plundering the rest of the world abroad, and theft of land and slavery at home. If you are okay with unspeakable cruelty you can really pile up some material comforts for yourself, sure.