This is Left Praxis, LIBERALS would never understand the 4d chess involved in how Trump winning helps Palestine and American minorities.
This is Left Praxis, LIBERALS would never understand the 4d chess involved in how Trump winning helps Palestine and American minorities.
Oh, fuck off with this bullshit. Anyone politically conscious enough to call themselves a leftist is overwhelmingly more likely to cast a Biden vote than pretty much any other group you could carve out.
The left tells centrist morons how to appeal to average Americans. Centrist morons ignore the left. Average Americans stay home on election day. Centrist morons assume it’s because they’re leftists since the leftists warned them .
It’s bad enough the left has to keep voting for establishment goons. It’s intolerable that we are the first place they look for a scapegoat when they fall on their fat asses. Hillary lost because of Hillary, and that’s on the Democratic establishment and primary voters who nominated an arrogant hag.
My 2c as a non American: The politically active “far-left” will likely hold their noses & vote for Biden as “damage reduction”.
The non-voters will be the disenfranchised, suppressed and the “non-political”.
Then whatever happens, democrats will blame the “far-left” and talk about how they could have done better if only they’d appealed to some imaginary conservative swing voter who doesn’t exist.
I’ll end up voting for Biden. Not psyched about it, but pragmatically the alternative is so much worse. Might get shit from the ultratankies and hexbros, but I’d rather do damage control than whine about Biden and do nothing while an actual fascist snakes his way back in.
It doesn’t feel good. And it isn’t good. But this is the reality we live in at the moment.
Thank you, comrade. I mean it. 2000 wasn’t like this. 2004 wasn’t like this. 2008 and 2012 weren’t like this. The opposition was cretinous and eager to violate what rights they could, our failure to defeat them in 2000 and 2004 caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, minimum, and is a stain on our soul, but they weren’t a direct threat to democracy itself. More than happy to cheat if they could, but not trying to fundamentally dismantle the system. This? Trump? I don’t know that we would survive a second term - large amounts of ‘us’ and the republic itself.
The vote for the Dem candidate (one hopes not Biden) is essential against fascism.
As an American, let me assure you, there are plenty of swing voters. Altogether too many, honestly. People who are deeply political often spend their time around others who are deeply political, which colors their views significantly.
The Dem tendency to chase the swing voter is real, and counterproductive, but it’s not for an imaginary voter. The issue is that the swing voter they’re trying to appeal to isn’t voting on policy. They’re voting on feelings. So when the Dems move their policy right, they piss off and demoralize large amounts of left-leaning voters, but do only a little to sway swing voters.
This is more perceptive than most things I’ve read on lemmy.
Jesus, do you know how many people on here regularly swear against voting for Biden?
Sweet Jesus, have you ever talked to an average American?
I support carving out more left positions, but if there is an electoral advantage, it would be in motivating left-leaning voters who are not deeply involved in the political process, not in swaying the ‘average American’ positively.
Like, man, I would love it if most people were left-leaning, but hearing this line time and time again, at this point it rings as hollow to me as the semiannual “I, a City Liberal, had waffles with these Common Folk and they’re Not That Bad” articles that come out from liberal publications before every fucking election.
Living here, it’s a different story.
And you think that is evidence of something? The exit polling was crystal clear. Bernie supporters overwhelmingly voted for Hillary in 2016 and for Biden in 2020. Who the fuck cares what online trolls say?
In the case where leftists might say they won’t vote for Biden, odds are that they are venting or pushing for a better candidate. When it’s Trump or Biden, most will come around unless some idiot causes them to harden their position. That’s pretty much the standard human reaction to this kind of post.
If you are really concerned that the left won’t show for Biden, there are ways of approaching the topic that aren’t designed to alienate. You are far more likely to push people away than convince them to vote for Biden with your tone-deaf chastisements.
You might have fooled yourself that this is about helping Biden win, but that’s bullshit. You are scratching an itch to declare your moral and intellectual superiority to the Internet. You don’t give a flying fuck about the election, you just want to be smug. If you really cared about the election then you would find a better approach.
Me. Obviously. Since I’m removed about it.
After 2016, I’m very wary of ignoring the influence of trolls on discourse.
It’s funny, then, that it always seems to come along with lots of voter suppression. Spreading right-wing talking points, saying both sides are the same, playing up the idea of a ‘protest vote’ to anyone who will listen…
I’m not trying to convince the self-proclaimed leftists. The self-proclaimed leftists who engage in this bullshit are not people who are working on values that are compatible with a vote for anything except fascism.
Propaganda, if unchallenged or tolerated, changes communities. I’ve seen it happen with various forums - and now I feel a little old. Man, I’m not deluded enough to think that memes on here are going to create a surge of suddenly-shamed pseudoleftists to cast their votes for Biden. I just don’t want their talking points justifying fascism and genocide to be welcomed, or propagate in the same way that gossip does, or be normalized in this community.
At best, sustained effort might choke out a vector of a vector of misinformation which may have swayed a voter. As intended, it’s not even about that much. There’s other work than posting memes to be done for actually getting out the vote and generating enthusiasm. This? This is a step above posting ordinary memes, but only a step. Insofar as it has a purpose, the purpose is recreational (to maintain standards in a community I enjoy and vent), not civic. It’s not some great effort that will sway the election - but it can be enough to see useful idiots and fascists frequent decent communities less often.
Yeah, “removed” is a good description.
Did I tell you to ignore it? Your mode of discourse is the problem. What I did say is that it will have the opposite effect of what you are apparently trying to achieve. The more convinced the left is that the Democrats hold them in contempt, the more they will see Democrats and Republicans as two sides of the same coin. You are pushing people away.
For decades it was absolutely true that there was almost no difference between the two parties, each competing to out-neoliberal the other. Biden has inched the Democrats left, and Trump has taken the Republicans full fascist. That’s what you should focus on.
You asked “Who cares?” and I pointed out who cares and why. Don’t know why answering your question is upsetting.
So you didn’t actually read what I said, despite the fact that my explanation consists of the vast majority of the comment you’re replying to, and just presumed that I was trying to convince pseudoleftists still. Okay. Cool. Good talk.
Down voting every comment your opponent makes is such a removed move.
I read what you said. It’s nonsense. The impact of your posts on actual leftists and also average voters is what I was addressing.
That’s a convenient excuse for not actually addressing it.
Oh, so it’s your opinion that actual leftists are sitting here on the fence about whether or not to welcome fascism, but someone calling out people who, say, condemn AOC and Bernie as insufficiently pro-Palestine for critical support when the GOP has become an openly fascist party, is what tips them into welcoming it. Okay. Weird people to call actual leftists, but alright, you do you.
Average voters are not going to be turned away by rejecting the kind of people who say “The US has always been a fascist country, and nothing will change anyway”. In fact, welcoming those kind of people will turn off the average voter. But I guess fascists painted red get treated with kid gloves, and everyone else gets the gauntlet.
Let me clue you in about something. It’s not all about voting. You don’t just need the left to vote for your candidates, you need them attending rallies, canvassing, running voter registration drives, making phone calls, and getting their friends to vote. You know, all the shit you don’t do. The left will vote for the shitty candidate the Democrats gave us because we always do, but driving down enthusiasm on the left damages all those other things that are critical to winning. That’s what you’re fucking up
If Biden loses it will because of this arrogant clueless attitude being pervasive in the Democratic leadership. But sure, go ahead and try again to win an election by berating voters. I’m sure it will work this time!
Wow, you aren’t wrong. OP then goes on to do exactly what you’re saying, because they know they’re definitely better than the “pseudoleftists”.
Fuck, man, if you think that being upset about shitheads advocating for literal fascism because “It’s actually the MOST left action possible in this election!” is unreasonable, and thinking that maybe not welcoming them is a good course of action is smugness, I don’t know what to tell you.
What happened to the group that kept telling me Kennedy was going to save the world and that I’m personally committing genocide for voting Biden instead of him? Because they sure shut the fuck up after the brain worm incident.
They figured out that he was no longer a useful tool for suppressing left voters.
I’m probably closest to a socdem and a pragmatist. Getting me to vote anything but the furthest practical left in a FPTP system is going to require more than any of the shit talkers are ready to do.
You want me to take your third party presidential candidate seriously? First, make sure it’s not leaky brain from WiFi man. Then we can all work towards getting rid of FPTP in favor of a system that lets 10 candidates duke it out.
God, that would be great.
Man, I just want to not have to watch people who call themselves leftists advocate for literal fascism. Not even fascism painted red, just fascism.
I’m so fucking tired. I just want to know that we won’t be make the worst decision available this November, and people are out here pledging eternal opposition to Democrats, claiming both sides are the same, giving “TRUMP STRONG BIDEN WEAK” narratives quite literally indistinguishable from MAGA types…
I’m so fucking tired. And perhaps even more exhausting is the people who defend them because, I don’t know, calling out people who call themselves leftists for supporting fascism is mean, or something.
I’m so fucking tired.
All we have is public perception and the outward message leftists want to put off is biden is worse than donald. Sure, when you corner them they may feign some semblance of reason about the ballot box but all I’ve seen is calls for third party and treating joe like he is sending the orders himself.
The key is, we can be upset, and we can fight for change but right now our efforts must be against trump. I pledge my own to comeback hard on biden if he somehow eeks out the win, but I doubt I’ll see any of you there. Just like 2020.
My personal favorite has been “If Trump was president at least Democrats would oppose these bad things out of contrarianism!”, completely ignoring that the stark and unconditional opposition to the party across the aisle is a Republican tenet.
Noo but some of them understand the electorial collage, live outside a swing state, and want to try and affect the trajectory of the Democratic party in any way at all instead of just letting the modern aristocracy choose who we’re allowed to vote for in perpetuity!