For a long time I have not felt belonging to either the Pro Choice or Pro Life groups and recently came across ProGrace which sets politics aside to focus on aiding the woman and meeting her needs directly both during and after her pregnancy regardless as to how she decides to proceed. This got my attention and I have since taken their training course, listened to their podcast and started some of their recommended reading to further my understanding.
In full disclosure I am a white christian male in the southeastern USA who has experienced two unplanned pregnancies myself and after learning of how terribly the church has handled their support of women, especially around unplanned pregnancy, I am looking to work with my wife to educate those within our sphere of influence to address this.
However, as mentioned above, I am a male and so naturally my experience around the issue simply does not compare to the depth of emotion and trauma that a woman would experience and so I am hoping to learn from those here who are or have experienced an unplanned pregnancy to better understand what support is needed to bring women through the traumas associated, overcome the fear and shame around the issue, and just generally help in any way I can.
I know this is a sensitive topic and so I would not ask for sharing directly in the comments here. Rather I am hoping to chat directly whether via Signal, email, etc. or even a quick call for those comfortable with that (can use Jitsi, Signal or another private voice chat to avoid needing to share any personal details). I would like to simply listen to your experience; I will not debate, judge, etc. as my goal is entirely to learn.
Thank you for taking the time to read and consider.
One side focuses mainly on the needs of the woman, the other focuses mainly on the needs of the child. Neither can provide a completely accurate representation of God’s heart, because He is equally concerned with the needs of both. And He calls us to work for the dignity and welfare of both.
Wow, you’re either ok with a woman’s choice or not. I know I am not ok with this both sides bullshit centrist approach, how can you expect women to talk to you about their struggles when you come at the issue only caring about what your god tells you to do, sorry, what some rando said your god cares about? Fuck that. If you are ok with a woman getting an abortion when she is financially screwed, in an abusive or unstable relationship, carrying an unviable fetus, carrying a fetus with abnormalities, about to die, has mental or physical disabilities themselves, fetus implanted in the fallopian tubes, raped, high-risk pregnancy, too young, doesn’t want to be a mother, or any other reason then you are pro-choice. Pregnancy comes with risk of dying and permanent side effects. No woman should be forced to go through a pregnancy she doesn’t want to do.
You cannot reconcile viewing this tissue as a life that needs to be “saved” with treating women like brood mares. Especially when churches peddle bullshit like: every day doctors kill fully formed babies at birth because the mom changed her mind or women get abortions every month as birth control. This is the bullshit I’ve heard from religious people and no amount of logic will shake whatever their dumb bishop told them.
I am assuming you are in the US, in that case there are little programs available to help a woman raise a child she does not want especially if it is a red state. Adoption is not an option when it’s your body being sacrificed so some loony can adopt a baby. They do little background checks on people who foster and adopt btw, the kid grows up being abused and with mental disorders like reactive attachment disorder, I’ve personally seen it happen multiple times. It is ok to let a teenager have an abortion so she can finish high school and go to college instead of dropping out and living the rest of her life in poverty with a father she was forced to marry that she doesn’t actually know that well or without a father to support her. Mothers may go through post partum depression, it can get really bad when untreated to the point where she doesn’t care about her baby anymore and would rather just kill her kids and then herself.
You either care or you don’t care about these women. If your god cared so much about abortion, then why isn’t in your bible? Where does it say that abortion is banned after 6 weeks? 12? 22? Or altogether? A 6 week ban is a de facto ban since obgyns don’t see women that early at all, it is often before a woman even knows. You trying to take a human rights issue and stuff your god into it is why there is a problem in the first place. Keep all gods out of it.
Thank you for your comment. I’m only sad I added mine so late to the conversation. I find this entire ProGrace website so scary…they’re seeking to educate Christians on how to speak to vulnerable pregnant women in ways more likely to make them open to hearing Christ’s message. It would be cringe if it didn’t exist in the context of the regressive, christian-army-led hellscape we find ourselves in.
God’s design for pregnancy is to intertwine a woman and a child. He has made it impossible for us to try to help one while bypassing the other, but instead calls us to work for the dignity and welfare of both of them.
That’s one of their two Core Beliefs–how fucking scary is that? Can you imagine being a woman with an unwanted pregnancy who doesn’t have the money or access to just seek the abortion healthcare you need, and you seen an advertisement for “pregnancy crisis help” and you’re desperate so you go there and then someone with that “core belief” is talking to you about some bullshit and you realize “oh, these people aren’t going to help me get an abortion at all” and then you’re just trying to get out of there but you’re not trying to be rude…can you imagine that nightmare?? This organization is, in part, training those crisis center people to use trickier language that makes pregnant women feel like their might be some empathy for their situation…so, lengthening the period of time that woman sits in a center having her time wasted.
Can you imagine being a person who thinks that “God’s design for pregnancy is to intertwine a woman and a child” and believing that you have any right to counsel a woman coping with an unwanted pregnancy??? The delusion is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
The whole this is depressing and shameful.
Thank for responding; I share your passion around the issue
I am assuming you are in the US, in that case there are little programs available to help a woman raise a child she does not want especially if it is a red state.
This is the kind of information I am looking for
They do little background checks on people who foster and adopt
As a foster parent of 8.5 years this is highly variable on the area; ours for example was extremely thorough and we were able to see several children’s lives improved through their placements - I do not however want to discount that the opposite does also happen though I do not have the answer as to any better solution beyond providing significantly more support to all areas of the foster system. We need more well-meaning people to get involved both as social workers and especially as foster / adoptive parents.
I really hope this organization is what it purports to be. Of course, as a strictly pro-choice agnostic, I’m going to be suspicious. If they genuinely mean it when they say “Join us and discover how to look at the issue through a lens of empathy and avoid political rhetoric”, then it could be a good thing.
Oh, I grabbed that quote from their website, which is https://www.prograce.org/
Agreed and so far all of my interactions with their team have matched that stance so I am hopeful.
ProGrace which sets politics aside to focus on aiding the woman and meeting her needs directly both during and after her pregnancy regardless as to how she decides to proceed.
I mean, that sounds like pro-choice to me. Pro-choice is about letting the pregnant woman decide.
This is also crucial for the care of a woman with an unwanted pregnancy. If she’s been raped or does not feel like she will be able to support the baby, then the abortion is extremely important for her mental health.
Laws restricting choice often also restrict what procedures doctors are allowed to perform. It can and has already lead to situations where an abortion is considered medically necessary, or even the only logical step forward, because the fetus is already dead in the womb, but doctors still will not do it, because it could mean they get fined for it.
In my opinion, the logical path for straddling both sides is to leave the pregant woman’s choice 100% intact, but then make it easy for her to choose the pregnancy.
In other words, universal healthcare, a high-quality child care network, maternity leave, and assistance for getting the child adopted. Preventing unwanted pregnancies by providing contraceptives also helps a lot.
I feel like that’s also why this discussion hardly exists in developed nations outside of the US, because they have these things.I went pretty deep into the ProGrace website and blogs…sadly, leaving the woman’s choice intact is not what they are about at all.
Yeah, I meant to say with that, that maybe OP’s orientation is simply pro-choice. I did also have the impression that this ProGrace organisation did not match OP’s goals. But well, personally I didn’t go that deep down their webpage, nor did I want to claim to know better than OP what their motivation is, so I figured, I’d just advertise for pro-choice and let OP make up their own mind…
Thanks for the pro-choice sentiment and for being so respectful!
In my opinion, the logical path for straddling both sides is to leave the pregant woman’s choice 100% intact, but then make it easy for her to choose the pregnancy. In other words, universal healthcare, a high-quality child care network, maternity leave, and assistance for getting the child adopted. Preventing unwanted pregnancies by providing contraceptives also helps a lot. I feel like that’s also why this discussion hardly exists in developed nations outside of the US, because they have these things.
Agreed and I think this is where the group is aiming along with myself as well
Is it your personal belief that until legislation and SCOTUS rulings align such that American citizens have access to all of those things (universal healthcare, high-quality child care network, etc), that every American should have unrestricted access to high-quality, affordable, local abortion healthcare?
I would say that prohibition of local abortion healthcare is not the answer regardless as to what other options are available.
Since writing the OP I’ve found a local pregnancy center that offers services in alignment with the above that is in need of male volunteers. I’ll have my orientation next week and hope to be of help there.
Good luck to you, I hope you are able to help people and certainly respect your desire to do so.
Thank you and thank you also for the conversation
From the ProGrace website:
The Church being the community of grace and support Jesus intended us to be, can address the reasons of panic, isolation, and shame that cause so many people to think abortion is their only option.
What a frightening sentence to have to read.
There is no such thing as “ProGrace”–this “third option” is co-opting and trickery. The question of whether women should have full access to healthcare during pregnancy is a completely binary one. The answer is Yes or No.
You either recognize that abortion is healthcare and believe that safe access to this healthcare, from a variety of providers, for any of the many reasons a woman may need or want it, is a woman’s right, OR…you do not. Period. That’s the whole thing. Any vague “third choice” is marketing trickery meant to soften the face of something that should disgust us all.
Also from ProGrace:
Our Core Beliefs 1: God’s design for pregnancy is to intertwine a woman and a child. He has made it impossible for us to try to help one while bypassing the other, but instead calls us to work for the dignity and welfare of both of them.
That really sums it up, doesn’t it? “God’s design for pregnancy”–this isn’t a stance in healthcare conversations that should be given a moment of thought. It’s fiction.
If Christians would like to begin encouraging each other to stop being judgmental toward people who have had abortions, I think that would be great. But keep the whole thing in-house, make it about Christians talking to other Christians about how they can get their behavior in line with their supposed religious beliefs. Don’t make the whole thing about teaching Christians how to speak more empathetically to people who have had or are considering abortion for the purpose of being able to more successfully sell Jesus to those people. Because that’s what this whole thing is actually about.
If you really want to help pregnant women the way Jesus would have wanted you to, use some of that sweet, sweet untaxed money from your money piles to start a car service that ONLY gives free rides (chauffeur style with the tinted window between the driver and passenger if the passenger would like to have it up) to women and one or two support people to and from their abortions. No conversation, no strings attached. And pay for the abortions. And throw in a Starbucks card with like $25 on it. Show these women the heart of Christ with your actions, not with phony words meant to control their minds, and maybe after they have their abortion that act of no-strings-attached kindness will have made such and impact that they will seek out a “church community” themselves instead of having to be coerced and cajoled into one in a moment of true despair.
Seriously, this is your new campaign…“WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? He would drive you to your abortion and pay for it, too, cause he was just that kind of guy.”
EDIT: typo.
start a car service that ONLY gives free rides to women and one or two support people
A transportation service is a great idea, thank you for sharing
Yeah it’s all just got to be no-strings. No conversation necessary, no information collection beyond logistics-related information, no handing out pamphlets…the religious organization gets nothing at all out of the exchange beyond the knowledge that they’ve acted in accordance with the tenets Christ laid out so clearly. And I’m sure some extreme tax advantage that would practically make the fleet of cars free or whatever but that can’t be helped I guess, after all, this is America.
Also, I would also say maybe look within and ask yourself if you feel good about what you’re doing. “Tell me your pain” is quite a thing for a human being to ask of another. If you’re asking so you can better sell your god product to other women in the middle of that same pain, well, that’s kind of disingenuous if you really pray on it, isn’t it?
I’m guessing god and Christian community has probably been pretty transformational in your life, and that you want that for other people, too. I know that is a genuine desire. But it’s also a product you’re selling, and selling it to someone who is in a potentially super vulnerable position under the guise of trying to help them with their crisis is pretty bad.
The last thing I would ask you to consider, is the fact that abortion is not a difficult choice for many women. They discover they’re pregnant, they immediately know that continuing a pregnancy makes no sense and know without hesitation that they need to remove this matter (that does NOT feel like a baby to them at all) from their uterus as soon as possible.
When Christians seek to understand abortion so that they can be “more Christ like” in how they approach it, they often seem to want to hear stories of pain. Like maybe the fact that the woman was in so much pain, agonized over the decision, will never truly get over it, etc, somehow makes it more understandable. “She suffered so much, I can let go of the judgement on my heart” (a WILD sentiment in the context of Christianity, the sacrifice of Jesus, etc.)
But really, many women who have abortions feel about it the same way they would about removing a suspicious mole. It’s a health-related chore that needs taking care of. They’re not looking forward to it, but they WILL get it done and they will never regret it. Not even for a moment.
So, as you seek to understand, know that. Abortion is healthcare. That is the reality and many women don’t feel any other way about it. I think you will hear less stories like that from women because the type of women who answer your call for sharing abortion experiences will more likely be women who have had bad experiences or who feel guilt and want to share it to feel better/seek forgiveness and healing through sharing.
Women who do not regret their abortion will be vastly under-represented in the stories you collect, but I think are very important stories for you to know exist. It’s easier to empathize with pain, regret, loss. If you’re truly seeking to transform yourselves with empathy around this issue, you need to work to meet “Oh yeah, I didn’t want it so I got rid of it and feel no regret at all” with complete understanding.
When you can look a woman in the eye, and listen to her say “Yeah I got sloppy with birth control and got pregnant but I had a trip to Europe coming up that I’d been saving for for a while and it just wasn’t a good time for me to even think about a pregnancy or baby so I took a pill and it was gone and EUROPE WAS AMAZING!” and feel no judgement, just acceptance, or maybe even happiness for this woman that Europe was so lit…well. That’s when you know you’ve truly achieved your stated goal.
