Each side wants the complete destruction of the other.
I don’t think this is true. Hamas’ charter supports a two state solution, for example.
We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.
No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?
You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man
You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It’s ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn’t go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.
“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.
But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.
But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment
The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. “The reality of the facts on the ground” is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.
Edit, missed this part:
Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?
It should. I don’t know how this will end but we can’t just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response
Right my whole point is I think we all know, or think, what needs to happen to achieve long term peace. But, will any of it happen? We can’t just march an international coalition into Israel and begin occupying. We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners. So what is the real solution? It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
As much as we all want to see violence end, Israel is a sovereign nation with complex relationships with foreign powers. There isn’t some easy street solution to long term peace, because whatever that solution is, needs to be accepted by them. And their current political establishment don’t want to just release prisoners and give Palestine statehood.
That’s why I said complete surrender of Hamas is the only way we even begin having conversations about long term peace. Israel will accept nothing less at this point
Well excuse me if I don’t think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.
We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners.
We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.
It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.
The reason why Germany was able to be denazified was because the Allied powers bombed them into submission, and then killed anyone with ties to the party. It’s all based on who can bring the most pain upon the other. That’s why this solution goes through Israel, unless we want to bomb them into submission. They will not respond to other pressure
That’s exactly what Israel is trying to do to Hamas right now. Bomb them into submission and then kill anyone left over who had ties to them.
I ignore the statehood/settlements stuff because Israel will never do it. It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not. They are winning the war from their perspective, so they’ll just keep bombing and killing until they get what they want. Say it’s horrible and terrible all you want, it will not change their perspective. To them, Hamas is Nazi Germany and they are the Allies. They’ll win by killing everyone if they have to.
The only TRUE solution is complete Hamas surrender. And then options like statehood are back on the table. Until then, it will just be bombing and killing
I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don’t support this solution with Israel’s unreasonable demands, why?
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not.
First off. Negotiations don’t work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn’t give Hamas everything they want.
Second, why do you seem to think it’s ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they’re currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?
I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him?
Then we should declare war on Israel is your perspective? Because we were at war with Hitler, that’s why we didn’t just give him what he wanted. Because we knew we could beat them by killing them. If you truly think the US will ever declare war on Israel, you’re insane and this conversation can end here. It’s so outside of the realm of reality
The only way this specific conflict will end is either complete destruction of Hamas, or their complete surrender. Period.
Not how SHOULD this conflict end. The only way it will.
Then we should declare war on Israel is your perspective?
Did you miss this part?
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
Sanction. Boycott. Make demands with actual consequences. Then if none of that works, international peacekeeping forces should stop the genocide immediately.
If you truly think the US will ever declare war on Israel, you’re insane and this conversation can end here. It’s so out of the realm of reality
Yeah that’s why I did not say that.
The only way this specific conflict will end is either complete destruction of Hamas, or their complete surrender. Period.
Wrong. Cease fire. Prisoner exchanges. Happened many times before.
Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants “for peace” but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don’t you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?
Are you thinking that Hamas is actually going to lay down their arms? Or that if they were destroyed another terror group wouldn’t take their place? Is that realistic?
Their comments here and comment history just show they want Israel to be able to eliminate all Palestinians. Idk if any logic you present will change their mind (or any others that think like that)
Probably not but I think it’s good to make the case and to give people a chance.
But yeah that seems to be it. Israel gets everything “it’s the only way, I’m just being realistic” and Hamas surrenders entirely and gets nothing because… that is “realistic” apparently? This will make Palestinians stop fighting for their freedom, somehow? Bizarre logic.
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
Again, not going to happen man. They are America’s strongest ally in the region, *AND one of our strongest allies in the entire world. We’ll never do this. You’re living in a fantasy land. So we should just stop here. You can keep wishing but you aren’t looking at the facts and reality. Goodbye
You ignore everything else so you can pretend you’re being “realistic” and everyone with morals is “living in a fantasy land.” Ronald fucking Reagan suspended weapons delivery to them so let’s not pretend it’s so impossible.
Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel.
And since you’re just ignoring anything inconvenient to you, I’ll just leave this question here again…
Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants “for peace” but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don’t you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?
I don’t think this is true. Hamas’ charter supports a two state solution, for example.
No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?
You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It’s ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn’t go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.
But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.
The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. “The reality of the facts on the ground” is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.
Edit, missed this part:
It should. I don’t know how this will end but we can’t just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response
Right my whole point is I think we all know, or think, what needs to happen to achieve long term peace. But, will any of it happen? We can’t just march an international coalition into Israel and begin occupying. We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners. So what is the real solution? It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
As much as we all want to see violence end, Israel is a sovereign nation with complex relationships with foreign powers. There isn’t some easy street solution to long term peace, because whatever that solution is, needs to be accepted by them. And their current political establishment don’t want to just release prisoners and give Palestine statehood.
That’s why I said complete surrender of Hamas is the only way we even begin having conversations about long term peace. Israel will accept nothing less at this point
Well excuse me if I don’t think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.
We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.
Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.
The reason why Germany was able to be denazified was because the Allied powers bombed them into submission, and then killed anyone with ties to the party. It’s all based on who can bring the most pain upon the other. That’s why this solution goes through Israel, unless we want to bomb them into submission. They will not respond to other pressure
That’s exactly what Israel is trying to do to Hamas right now. Bomb them into submission and then kill anyone left over who had ties to them.
I ignore the statehood/settlements stuff because Israel will never do it. It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not. They are winning the war from their perspective, so they’ll just keep bombing and killing until they get what they want. Say it’s horrible and terrible all you want, it will not change their perspective. To them, Hamas is Nazi Germany and they are the Allies. They’ll win by killing everyone if they have to.
The only TRUE solution is complete Hamas surrender. And then options like statehood are back on the table. Until then, it will just be bombing and killing
I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don’t support this solution with Israel’s unreasonable demands, why?
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
First off. Negotiations don’t work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn’t give Hamas everything they want.
Second, why do you seem to think it’s ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they’re currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?
Then we should declare war on Israel is your perspective? Because we were at war with Hitler, that’s why we didn’t just give him what he wanted. Because we knew we could beat them by killing them. If you truly think the US will ever declare war on Israel, you’re insane and this conversation can end here. It’s so outside of the realm of reality
The only way this specific conflict will end is either complete destruction of Hamas, or their complete surrender. Period.
Not how SHOULD this conflict end. The only way it will.
Did you miss this part?
Sanction. Boycott. Make demands with actual consequences. Then if none of that works, international peacekeeping forces should stop the genocide immediately.
Yeah that’s why I did not say that.
Wrong. Cease fire. Prisoner exchanges. Happened many times before.
Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants “for peace” but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don’t you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?
Are you thinking that Hamas is actually going to lay down their arms? Or that if they were destroyed another terror group wouldn’t take their place? Is that realistic?
Their comments here and comment history just show they want Israel to be able to eliminate all Palestinians. Idk if any logic you present will change their mind (or any others that think like that)
Probably not but I think it’s good to make the case and to give people a chance.
But yeah that seems to be it. Israel gets everything “it’s the only way, I’m just being realistic” and Hamas surrenders entirely and gets nothing because… that is “realistic” apparently? This will make Palestinians stop fighting for their freedom, somehow? Bizarre logic.
Again, not going to happen man. They are America’s strongest ally in the region, *AND one of our strongest allies in the entire world. We’ll never do this. You’re living in a fantasy land. So we should just stop here. You can keep wishing but you aren’t looking at the facts and reality. Goodbye
You ignore everything else so you can pretend you’re being “realistic” and everyone with morals is “living in a fantasy land.” Ronald fucking Reagan suspended weapons delivery to them so let’s not pretend it’s so impossible.
And since you’re just ignoring anything inconvenient to you, I’ll just leave this question here again…