Exactly. And the other comments so far are pretty ignorant. All close elections are won by winning over independents AND people registered to the other party. Just because Republicans in Congress appear largely in lock-step with Trump doesn’t mean Republican voters are.
It’s fair to speculate that many Trump haters left the Republican party in 2016 and more in 2020. But certainly not all of them. And beyond the Trump haters are a swathe of people uncertain or uncomfortable with Trump who can be won over.
Elections are won by appealing to the center, where the majority of the populace sits, while not alienating (too many) people on your flank.
Two party politics is a lot of this problem. Ranked choice voting would help a lot. But even in parliamentary systems, coalitions have to gather support in the center without pissing off the edges too much.
And yet, she got more votes than Trump. She did appeal to more people, it’s that the system is broken that getting more votes doesn’t make you the winner.
It’s almost like Trump appealed to the fucking shitheads whose votes count for more than the rest of us.
Speaking to the center in swing states is important and Mrs. Clinton failed to bother with MI, PA, WI, or MN, because she thought he was an easy opponent.
Don’t accuse me of lies. Trump dog whistled to the far right and appealed to the ignorant center. The folks who thought he was a savvy business man who would run the country better than some lifelong politician. The ignorant center that somehow thought Trump would create jobs and restore the rust belt to it’s former glory.
No, Trump did not run to the center of anything. From the very beginning, he was overtly racist. FFS, he called Mexicans rapists during his announcement.
If you don’t want people to say you’re lying, don’t lie. I get that you’re happy when the party moves to the right and ignores progressives, but you don’t need to tell lies to justify it.
I’m a progressive. Why would I do that? Most progressives live in states where voting for President has no effect anyway. The blue wall, + New York, + Illinois…
Compare it to a party, or a social gathering. Bill is a bit racist and a loose cannon ® but he shows up every time. Kelly and Joe are cool and level headed and show up quite regularly. Then there is Scott who shows up maybe 10% of the time.
Now, if I’m looking to invite people to the party and can only pick two, do I go for Kelly and Joe who are quite reliable or do I go with Scott and one of the other two knowing Scott says he’ll go but then doesn’t or just says flat out he isn’t gonna come?
There are people whose whole jobs revolve around political campaigning and the data says progressives by and large will find one reason or another to not go vote. Or just vote for some esoteric third party therefore “wasting” the vote.
Put simply, the Dem message can’t stretch far enough to cover both “centrist” voters and the way out there progressives. So a choice has to be made and the centrists come out to vote more often than progressives (at least for the Dems.) Or there are more of them compared to progressives coming out.
So I’ll ask you too- what is the path forward to political viability for progressives? And I want a real honest to god plan and not just pie in the sky “well if we just abstain for the next few decades like we’ve been doing then they’ll see the light” crap.
Compare it to a party, or a social gathering. Bill is a bit racist and a loose cannon ® but he shows up every time. Kelly and Joe are cool and level headed and show up quite regularly. Then there is Scott who shows up maybe 10% of the time.
Now, if I’m looking to invite people to the party and can only pick two, do I go for Kelly and Joe who are quite reliable or do I go with Scott and one of the other two knowing Scott says he’ll go but then doesn’t or just says flat out he isn’t gonna come?
Appealing to your best friend Bill isn’t going to get Kelly and Joe to show up any more reliably, and Scott is fed up with how you keep cozying up to Bill. But you always intended to blame Scott for no one coming to your “Let’s all be like Bill” party.
Bill is there to present the landscape only you blockhead.
Except Biden is courting Bill in this scenario.
Big surprise- ensign is always complaining acting like he’s smarter but doesn’t have the answers.
I don’t have to have the answers to know that “abandon your base to court lunkheads who hate you” is a stupid idea, no matter how much it means you get to move right.
If progressives were even half as popular and half as dedicated as they think themselves to be then they’d sweep elections across the country.
Imagine more AOC hitting the pavement and voting in primaries and less whining and crying on the internet.
I like AOC and progressive causes and such but it’s apparent that there is not enough there (either by apathy or lack of resonance with progressive ideas) to make progressivism a real popular cause.
So I ask progressives- what is the path forward to political viability?
Because I like to contrast this with the whackos on the right. The one thing to their credit is they vote every. single. time. And hence the Republican party has gone from right to off-the-rails right and dragged the country with them. They got it done somehow. How do progressives do the same but in reverse?
All close elections are won by winning over independents
Not true. It’s also possible to win by increasing your side’s turnout. And independents aren’t all centrists.
Republicans already have a major party catering directly to their interests. Meanwhile a full third of the country doesn’t vote. Obviously it’s a better strategy to give non-voters a reason to be engaged rather than trying to win over people who hate you and everyone who looks like you.
Exactly. And the other comments so far are pretty ignorant. All close elections are won by winning over independents AND people registered to the other party. Just because Republicans in Congress appear largely in lock-step with Trump doesn’t mean Republican voters are.
It’s fair to speculate that many Trump haters left the Republican party in 2016 and more in 2020. But certainly not all of them. And beyond the Trump haters are a swathe of people uncertain or uncomfortable with Trump who can be won over.
Not what I meant. Democrats will bend over backwards to try to appeal to Republicans before they ever consider appealing to alienated progressives.
Ah, too bad.
Elections are won by appealing to the center, where the majority of the populace sits, while not alienating (too many) people on your flank.
Two party politics is a lot of this problem. Ranked choice voting would help a lot. But even in parliamentary systems, coalitions have to gather support in the center without pissing off the edges too much.
You don’t have to worry about that if you consistently blame that flank for your losses. They won’t have a choice.
Which center was Trump appealing to in 2016? Which extreme did Clinton try to win that same year?
And yet, she got more votes than Trump. She did appeal to more people, it’s that the system is broken that getting more votes doesn’t make you the winner.
It’s almost like Trump appealed to the fucking shitheads whose votes count for more than the rest of us.
So you’re saying that moving to the center isn’t how elections are won, then.
Speaking to the center in swing states is important and Mrs. Clinton failed to bother with MI, PA, WI, or MN, because she thought he was an easy opponent.
Was Trump speaking to the center in those states?
The ignorant center. You need ignorant people to vote for you to win elections.
You’re going to sit there and tell me that Trump ran to the center?
Don’t waste my time with obvious lies.
Don’t accuse me of lies. Trump dog whistled to the far right and appealed to the ignorant center. The folks who thought he was a savvy business man who would run the country better than some lifelong politician. The ignorant center that somehow thought Trump would create jobs and restore the rust belt to it’s former glory.
No, Trump did not run to the center of anything. From the very beginning, he was overtly racist. FFS, he called Mexicans rapists during his announcement.
If you don’t want people to say you’re lying, don’t lie. I get that you’re happy when the party moves to the right and ignores progressives, but you don’t need to tell lies to justify it.
It’s because progressives always vote blue anyway, when they do, and represent a small portion of the voter base. Most Americans are liberals
So don’t blame them when you lose.
I’m a progressive. Why would I do that? Most progressives live in states where voting for President has no effect anyway. The blue wall, + New York, + Illinois…
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I love how progressives are simultaneously to blame for every loss and too insignificant to treat like a valuable constituency.
It’s because the bulk are flakes.
Compare it to a party, or a social gathering. Bill is a bit racist and a loose cannon ® but he shows up every time. Kelly and Joe are cool and level headed and show up quite regularly. Then there is Scott who shows up maybe 10% of the time.
Now, if I’m looking to invite people to the party and can only pick two, do I go for Kelly and Joe who are quite reliable or do I go with Scott and one of the other two knowing Scott says he’ll go but then doesn’t or just says flat out he isn’t gonna come?
There are people whose whole jobs revolve around political campaigning and the data says progressives by and large will find one reason or another to not go vote. Or just vote for some esoteric third party therefore “wasting” the vote.
Put simply, the Dem message can’t stretch far enough to cover both “centrist” voters and the way out there progressives. So a choice has to be made and the centrists come out to vote more often than progressives (at least for the Dems.) Or there are more of them compared to progressives coming out.
So I’ll ask you too- what is the path forward to political viability for progressives? And I want a real honest to god plan and not just pie in the sky “well if we just abstain for the next few decades like we’ve been doing then they’ll see the light” crap.
Appealing to your best friend Bill isn’t going to get Kelly and Joe to show up any more reliably, and Scott is fed up with how you keep cozying up to Bill. But you always intended to blame Scott for no one coming to your “Let’s all be like Bill” party.
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Except Biden is courting Bill in this scenario.
I don’t have to have the answers to know that “abandon your base to court lunkheads who hate you” is a stupid idea, no matter how much it means you get to move right.
I’m a progressive who’s voted in every single election for the last 24 years.
I am not taken seriously.
Then there really aren’t enough of you huh?
If progressives were even half as popular and half as dedicated as they think themselves to be then they’d sweep elections across the country.
Imagine more AOC hitting the pavement and voting in primaries and less whining and crying on the internet. I like AOC and progressive causes and such but it’s apparent that there is not enough there (either by apathy or lack of resonance with progressive ideas) to make progressivism a real popular cause.
So I ask progressives- what is the path forward to political viability?
Because I like to contrast this with the whackos on the right. The one thing to their credit is they vote every. single. time. And hence the Republican party has gone from right to off-the-rails right and dragged the country with them. They got it done somehow. How do progressives do the same but in reverse?
Dammit Jim, I’m a doctor not a political scientist!
Respect. :fistbump:
The real travesty is that this is a close election.
Not true. It’s also possible to win by increasing your side’s turnout. And independents aren’t all centrists.
Republicans already have a major party catering directly to their interests. Meanwhile a full third of the country doesn’t vote. Obviously it’s a better strategy to give non-voters a reason to be engaged rather than trying to win over people who hate you and everyone who looks like you.