So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you’re clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don’t allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
The ball’s entirely in Biden’s court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what’s right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are “Genocide”, “Much More Genocide”, or “I don’t care if there is more genocide”
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don’t deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump’s victory than a progressive platform.
If they don’t need the far left voters, then what exactly is the problem?
The problem is that some 48% of the electorate is ready to elect a fascist, and we’re sitting at 52% of a coalition that doesn’t agree on a single goddamn thing. And apparently, the smallest, leftmost wing of this coalition is beginning to flirt with the idea of “Just let the fascist win”, despite the fact that they are, nominally (but apparently not in actuality, as they seem ready to pop champagne bottles at the ushering in of a fascist age) the furthest from the fascist.
Progressives don’t want the fascists to win, they want you to listen to us. If the threat of fascists winning is not enough, then you were never going to be on our side.
The only people who have taken their ball and went home are the moderate neoliberals like yourself.
Give us some genuine halfway compromise, and you will have loyal progressive voters. The stakes are simply too high for you to not compromise. We bailed you out in 2020 and you owe us a favor.
Yeah, looking down through the comments by self-proclaimed leftists in this community, it seems like a great many of them are eager for the fascists to win to ‘show’ the Democrats what for. Fuck them minorities who’ll suffer or die.
So let’s see who blinks first.
Oh, fucking wonderful. I love it when genocide is used as the stakes in a game of dumb fucking machismo between two political factions who want to show off that THEY have the biggest balls in the room.
Goddammit.
If the threat of fascists winning is not enough, then you were never going to be on our side.
Okay, before we go further - is the reverse here true? If the threat of fascists winning is not enough for progressives to side with liberals, were progressives never going to be on the liberals’ side? Is that where we’re at?
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of “harm reduction” being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn’t quite pull it off. Even best case it’s basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don’t need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol’ Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?
I think that’s what will happen to me because the opposition is openly fascist, and people like you are doing their damndest to see a fascist regime elected here because you hate the grotesque foreign policy that has been established over the past 50 years.
Like, it’s not something that is unreasonable to see as fucking grotesque; it’s only unreasonable to demand that fascism be implemented here - not in the name of stopping the support of genocidaires in our foreign policy, but in the name of intensifying it. Just straight up saying “Yes, I want the greater evil, in all possible areas”.
For some reason, this endorsement of the mass murder of Palestinians AND American minorities makes an alarming number of self-proclaimed leftists feel good about themselves.
Where have I endorsed the mass murder of American minorities? If I have done that by denying Biden my vote, then you are endorsing the genocide of Palestinians by assuring Biden of yours. Is that fair to say?
No, it’s really not. Either voting is seen as an endorsement, and any vote endorses genocide while not voting doesn’t; or a vote is a choice, and not voting or voting for Trump (or 3rd party) endorses genocide, while voting for Biden doesn’t. They can’t both be correct, you can’t do a tit-for-tat, either you’re supporting genocide or Pug is.
In an ideal world, we would vote for candidates that excite us, that share our views, or who we feel will simply do a good job. In an ideal world, you are afforded the luxury of voting like this. If you see voting as an endorsement then you’re more likely to vote like this, and you’re more likely to assign a moral reaponsibility to voting, such that you’re responsible for the actions of the person that you vote for.
But you’re also responsible for preventing the actions of the person that you didn’t vote for. In the real world, in the US with FPTP, voting is a choice. You can vote for one, or the other, or say you don’t care (not voting), or use your vote to try to take a moral stand (voting 3rd party). But barring a statistical miracle, there are only two options. The actions of the president WILL affect people. Palestinians will be killed. Queer people will be harrassed or protected. Workers will be beaten or supported. Students will be penniless or financially free. The environment will be abused or respected. Ukraine will be slaughtered or strengthened. The US could die or live.
When you choose not to vote, you think that you relieve yourself of the responsibility of killing Palestinian citizens. But how can you possibly say this if by not voting you have made their conditions materially worse? And along with that, caused the same for our own citizens and our planet? When you don’t vote, you aren’t escaping the system. You haven’t avoided making a choice. You’ve simply said that you don’t care what is chosen. So yes, not voting means that you don’t care if things are bad or worse. You don’t care if only some people die, or if the state is wiped out entirely. You don’t care if there is food aid, or if Israel will be allowed to starve Gazans. You don’t care if they die, as long as you get to feel like you wouldn’t have caused it. Well, you would. We all have a choice-- one (mostly) equal vote-- and IT IS YOUR DUTY to make the right choice.
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you’re clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don’t allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
The ball’s entirely in Biden’s court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what’s right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are “Genocide”, “Much More Genocide”, or “I don’t care if there is more genocide”
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don’t deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump’s victory than a progressive platform.
I don’t suppose you’ve ever considered that the Democrats think that the US electorate isn’t as far left as the average Lemmy user?
Wonderful. If they don’t need the far left voters, then what exactly is the problem?
Let’s see how that strategy plays out.
The problem is that some 48% of the electorate is ready to elect a fascist, and we’re sitting at 52% of a coalition that doesn’t agree on a single goddamn thing. And apparently, the smallest, leftmost wing of this coalition is beginning to flirt with the idea of “Just let the fascist win”, despite the fact that they are, nominally (but apparently not in actuality, as they seem ready to pop champagne bottles at the ushering in of a fascist age) the furthest from the fascist.
Progressives don’t want the fascists to win, they want you to listen to us. If the threat of fascists winning is not enough, then you were never going to be on our side.
The only people who have taken their ball and went home are the moderate neoliberals like yourself.
Give us some genuine halfway compromise, and you will have loyal progressive voters. The stakes are simply too high for you to not compromise. We bailed you out in 2020 and you owe us a favor.
So let’s see who blinks first.
Yeah, looking down through the comments by self-proclaimed leftists in this community, it seems like a great many of them are eager for the fascists to win to ‘show’ the Democrats what for. Fuck them minorities who’ll suffer or die.
Oh, fucking wonderful. I love it when genocide is used as the stakes in a game of dumb fucking machismo between two political factions who want to show off that THEY have the biggest balls in the room.
Goddammit.
Okay, before we go further - is the reverse here true? If the threat of fascists winning is not enough for progressives to side with liberals, were progressives never going to be on the liberals’ side? Is that where we’re at?
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of “harm reduction” being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn’t quite pull it off. Even best case it’s basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don’t need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol’ Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?
“It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?”
It’ll be so fun when I’m going to the death camps and you’re safe and sound in your suburban home, listening to the news reports on the radio. 😊
You think that’s what will happen to you because that’s what you’re supporting in Gaza right now.
I think that’s what will happen to me because the opposition is openly fascist, and people like you are doing their damndest to see a fascist regime elected here because you hate the grotesque foreign policy that has been established over the past 50 years.
Like, it’s not something that is unreasonable to see as fucking grotesque; it’s only unreasonable to demand that fascism be implemented here - not in the name of stopping the support of genocidaires in our foreign policy, but in the name of intensifying it. Just straight up saying “Yes, I want the greater evil, in all possible areas”.
For some reason, this endorsement of the mass murder of Palestinians AND American minorities makes an alarming number of self-proclaimed leftists feel good about themselves.
Where have I endorsed the mass murder of American minorities? If I have done that by denying Biden my vote, then you are endorsing the genocide of Palestinians by assuring Biden of yours. Is that fair to say?
Have…you not been explained how FPTP works or are you deliberately ignoring everyone ?
No, it’s really not. Either voting is seen as an endorsement, and any vote endorses genocide while not voting doesn’t; or a vote is a choice, and not voting or voting for Trump (or 3rd party) endorses genocide, while voting for Biden doesn’t. They can’t both be correct, you can’t do a tit-for-tat, either you’re supporting genocide or Pug is.
In an ideal world, we would vote for candidates that excite us, that share our views, or who we feel will simply do a good job. In an ideal world, you are afforded the luxury of voting like this. If you see voting as an endorsement then you’re more likely to vote like this, and you’re more likely to assign a moral reaponsibility to voting, such that you’re responsible for the actions of the person that you vote for.
But you’re also responsible for preventing the actions of the person that you didn’t vote for. In the real world, in the US with FPTP, voting is a choice. You can vote for one, or the other, or say you don’t care (not voting), or use your vote to try to take a moral stand (voting 3rd party). But barring a statistical miracle, there are only two options. The actions of the president WILL affect people. Palestinians will be killed. Queer people will be harrassed or protected. Workers will be beaten or supported. Students will be penniless or financially free. The environment will be abused or respected. Ukraine will be slaughtered or strengthened. The US could die or live.
When you choose not to vote, you think that you relieve yourself of the responsibility of killing Palestinian citizens. But how can you possibly say this if by not voting you have made their conditions materially worse? And along with that, caused the same for our own citizens and our planet? When you don’t vote, you aren’t escaping the system. You haven’t avoided making a choice. You’ve simply said that you don’t care what is chosen. So yes, not voting means that you don’t care if things are bad or worse. You don’t care if only some people die, or if the state is wiped out entirely. You don’t care if there is food aid, or if Israel will be allowed to starve Gazans. You don’t care if they die, as long as you get to feel like you wouldn’t have caused it. Well, you would. We all have a choice-- one (mostly) equal vote-- and IT IS YOUR DUTY to make the right choice.