Let’s take all that “You can’t POSSIBLY vote for GENOCIDE-adjacent person even if the alternative is LITERALLY A HUNDRED TIMES WORSE INCLUDING LOTS MORE GENOCIDE” energy
And apply it to “You can’t POSSIBLY sit around typing on the internet while the world is falling apart, let’s get involved in direct activism to make the US a better place instead of hoping that voting is enough which it definitely isn’t”
While also, yes, voting for “not the end of the world”
tl;dr - Vote and boo.
I’ll vote and boo. But I’ll be exercising my right to vote by voting third party.
There’s no law against that
Yet
But if they cosplay as a leftist IRL then their social groups, redcaps all, might see them and ostracize them.
Hey, Trump was already president for four years, and didn’t do this despite the exact same scaremongering back then. His actions in office were practically identical to Biden’s now.
We need to protect our democracy, as the ability to freely choose between policies is fundamental to the perpetuation of a liberal society.
On that note, you have exactly one viable choice to make and it will - at absolute best - kick the can down the road for two years. At that point, you will once again be told we need to protect democracy.
At this point we’re just hoping for the most damage mitigation possible.
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In my younger, more optimistic days. I was naive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Maybe if you did some collective action between events instead of waiting two years for the polls to open and then complaining that FPTP is still giving you only two choices.
Love this comment! As i commented elsewhere, get outside and make ur local politicians uncomfortable until they pass Rqnked Choice. Plenty of state level measures going around right now, no waiting necessary!
Maybe if you did some collective action
That would be crazy if I was doing that regularly.
I’ll say, five minutes at the Houston Food Bank feels infinitely more productive than an hour waiting for access to the one functional voting machine in my district
What is the problem with Biden? As a non-American, I only notice how regularly Republicans block everything from the Democrats no matter how big the damage is and somehow the population embarrasses the Democrats for it or specifically biden… i.e. the same action against biden as from republicans or trump and that from the beginning. Why was Biden elected in the first place if both Republicans and Democrats use this to destroy democracy?
On the subject of genocide… Republicans and Democrats would apparently also be happier if the genocide took place against Israel, then increasingly against Ukraine and against the West. So that democracy in the West is destroyed further and further, especially by the fragmentation of their own shitty population.
Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
so people can vote for the candidate that best represents them, with no spoiler effect because their vote is still counted against the republicans. Democrats believe in democracy right?
The liberal party in Canada campaigned on election reform and then when they got elected said ah actually nah that doesn’t really benefit us sorry
this should literally be illegal
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i know, maybe you guys should do more protests and strikes until the government listens to the people
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you’ll pay for our flights to america?
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Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
You wanna guess which party has been amiable towards electoral reform and which has been hostile?
I’m guessing both are amiable to reforms that benefit them and oppose those that don’t.
Allowing reforms which would ditch the two uarty system would hurt both parties. That’s why it will never be implemented by any of them.
That’s why it will never be implemented by any of them.
Yeah that’s why RCV hasn’t seen any progress anywhere in the US recently. /s
Given that both parties are now facing 3rd (4th?) party challenges, it might actually be in their interest to pass RCV. In the short term, it would reduce the spoiler effect, even if has a long term risk of undermining the duopoly.
I don’t trust Dems to believe in meaningful voting choice. I only reluctantly vote for them because they haven’t fully embraced fascism.
People need to organize in large numbers for electoral reform to make it happen. It is not going to happen if we don’t agitate for it.
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Electoral reform has to happen at the state level, and it’s most likely to happen in extreme Democrat strongholds. So yes, if enough people vote Democrat, eventually electoral reform.
Trust me, Republicans are not interested in electoral reform, except maybe to outlaw elections.
Thinking the Democrats (or Republicans) are interested in passing any meaningful electoral reform is pure delusion.
Can’t electoral reform be passed on a state level in the US? I know shit about the US but I heard someone mention that.
Yes, states control how elections are run in their state.
It has to be passed at the state level, or via Constitutional convention (ie, the ultimate “let’s completely change the structure of government” nuclear option).
It’s hardly the nuclear option
I mean almost every implementation of it thus far has been by dems so yes actually that is well within the realm of possibility.
We can do this on the state level! Many states currently have measures establishing ranked choice voting that all of us would do well to pressure our state officials to pass. Id love to see protesters camping out in front of state congresspeoples houses with signs about their local measure. No need to wait until after the election!
But yes thatd be excellent after November, as well
I get the feeling most of the critics to this post don’t actually live in the US. When it’s you, your family and your friends in danger of being shipped off to the death camps, no amount of philosophical masturbation matters in comparison.
I’m trans and live in the US, I just also have an actual spine.
The way people talk about Palestinians today is the way they’ll talk about trans people tomorrow. Based on the logic of lesser-evilism, if the next election comes down to a democrat who wants to genocide trans people, and a republican who wants to genocide trans people and some other group(s), then you’ll deploy the exact same arguments about supporting “lesser genocide.” No one is safe once we accept this logic, at that point it’s all about trying to shift to target onto another group’s back to protect yourself.
Solidarity isn’t just about doing the right thing, it’s a practical survival strategy. It’s about different groups banding together and recognizing that an attack on one is an attack on all, and that no amount of genocide towards any group is acceptable.
How are you blind to the fact that Republicans currently want to genocide trans folk…
Because they’re delusional. There are some love letters to China in their history. I guess genocide is fine if it’s against Uighurs, huh?
I guess genocide is fine if it’s against Uighurs, huh?
Do you have any
evidenceto support this testimony?Get a clue, buddy. “I’m trans and Biden bad, China good.” So you do support genocide.
The weird part is you think having Donald win will turn the US into communism instead of a capitalist authoritarian hellscape. Or, I suppose you think that will topple America so that “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” can expand across the world?
Protip, genius: the “Chinese characteristics” are capitalism. They still have billionaires.
So you do support genocide.
Do you have any
evidenceto support this testimony?The weird part is you think having Donald win will turn the US into communism
I oppose Donald Trump for the exact same reasons I’ve stated for opposing Joe Biden… because he supports genocide!
Protip, genius: the “Chinese characteristics” are capitalism. They still have billionaires.
Hold it!
Are you saying that you consider Deng’s market reforms to be a right-wing deviation, and that you support hard-line Maoism?
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How many Native Americans had The USA killed? Because they are still regulated to Reservations and have no real Representation in Congress to this day.
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I’m not “blind” to that at all! I’m fully aware of it!
I’d rather die as someone who opposed genocide, than live as someone who didn’t
In the long run, if minority groups are being picked off one by one, and Democrats keep following Republicans to the right, then… it’s inevitable that we’ll be targeted sooner or later!
No one who supports genocide for political expediency will ever have my back! How could it be politically advantageous to stick their neck out for such a small minority? There’s only one way: if different minorities band together and treat an attack on one as an attack on all!
And that means zero tolerance for genocide!
Being Complicit with the Genocide of Transfolks IS NOT having Zero Tolerance for Genocide
Furthermore, Its a hell of alot harder for minorities to band together when they are actively being genocided. Voting for the lesser of two evils allows for that Solidarity to form and expand. Voting will never directly bring about Socialism in America, but voting can give the working class time for Class Conciousness to form that will inevitably lead to that outcome.
Voting IS NOT a purity test, it is a dirty tool that must be used until other tools can be put in place to allow the workers to seize the means of production.
Edit since the mods locked the post: You are clearly willing to sacrifice transfolks to maintain your Solidarity…
Voting for someone committing genocide is a complete repudiation of solidarity! And refusing to participate in a system that would require supporting genocide is not “being complicit with genocide!” It’s a rejection of it!
I’m not willing to sacrifice solidarity just for the sake of electing one genocidal maniac over another!
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Biden’s lack of action on Israel’s brutal campaign in Palestine is not something I support. And if the public could pressure him to cutting aid and assistance to Israel until they cease and start providing actual care for those displaced and not tent cities I’d be the first in line to support that action.
But allowing the other guy who actually establish actual concentration camps on the border to illegally detain and abuse refugees that fled hundreds of miles for a chance at a better and honest life is totally unacceptable. All the terrible and worst thing Biden had done in office, and there has definitely been a few, amount to nothing that trump did in a typical week. And that was before he really pursued ideas of being a full authoritarian dictator out to wipe his ass with the constitution and make sure he ruled for life. Trump got more people killed during Covid than Israel’s attempt at genocide. So no, its not disingenuous to say Trunp is dangerous for everybody if he somehow gets back into office and instead of a prison cell where he belongs.
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And I hope Trump does treat you with the same complete lack of humanity that you display towards those outside your bubble. You deserve it.
It’s hilarious when you fascist simps go mask off.
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Biden has been passively or second hand
“Passively?” “Second hand?”
Biden has been providing Israel with billions of dollars of unconditional military aid!If a murderer was in the midst of killing people, and someone comes up and hands them more guns and ammunition… That person would obviously be an accomplice! There’s nothing “passive” about it!
But there’s an even bigger problem with this testimony: if Biden is only “passively” involved in genocide… Then why is he protecting Netanyahu from the ICC?
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Ah, yet another tankie pretending to be an enlightened leftist.
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So enlightened that they assume everyone’s from the US. Most enlightened.
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Since you seem to have the answer to everything, in November, who should people vote for?
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So what exactly is your glorius leader and govt doing then if you want to high horse this
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He’s actively blocking attempts to have netanyahu prosecuted by the ICC. About as far from “lack of action” as you could get.
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Spent all night last night watching student protestors get their heads bashed in and catching facefuls of bear mace from modern day brown shirts, then come here and get told to vote so that doesn’t happen. Bizarro world.
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I live in the US, born and raised. I am queer and a racial minority as well as very politically active. I and everyone I know will be refusing to vote for Biden. He has made nothing meaningfully better since Trump and in fact has made things worse. Regardless of that, I can’t in good conscience vote for someone aiding a genocide. I think everyone who is voting for Biden in the US must be very privileged and unaware or otherwise removed from the effects of the severe decline in living standards under his administration. But even if that weren’t true… he’s aiding a literal mass-child-murder genocide, and by voting for him, I’d feel like I was giving my approval for such a heinous, despicable thing. I wish the democrats had put forward a decent human being that I could vote for, but they didn’t, and I can’t. The US is sliding towards fascism and if you think that won’t keep happening just because the blue team puts their geriatric genocidal guy at the top, I think you’re painfully naive.
Ok but do you seriously think trump would have handled Gaza any differently? I think he would have handled it even worse.
No way! Surely the fella who kicked off his term with a “Muslim ban” would have saved all the Palestinians! It’s not like he wants Israel to “finish the job” or anything like that. Surely the fella who tweeted nuclear threats against Iran would have been the best choice to have in office when they fired their rockets.
But would you rather have Trump? Because that’s what will happen if all the people who don’t like either party too much don’t vote.
I think they genuinely want Trump and for him cause generational suffering (judge appointments) which in their mind will eventually lead to reforms decades down the road. They are perfectly willing to sacrifice people now for that chance later.
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The US is sliding towards fascism
Who are you voting for then that will help keep Trump out of office?
This cosplayer doesn’t want no fascism, they want full fascism. They want another “Muslim ban” and they want Israel to “finish the job.”
They also want Repubs to pass more laws like banning anything mentioning LGBT from schools. Force teachers who mention anything of the sort to register as sex offenders.
The US has done been fascist, its about voting for the fascist that will do the least harm.
Absolutely wild that you’re getting downvoted for this. Head in the sand behavior.
Seriously, why can’t they get a better candidate? 😕
Because in 2020 not enough Democrats voted for the better candidate.
Such a sorry state of state affairs.
because first past the post voting socks
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Because who you can vote for is controlled by wealthy people and corporations that lobby the dominant parties, because the only way to amass that much support to run a campaign is through the Democrats or Republicans. You can’t vote for who you want, you must always pick the lesser of two evils.
America has never really had proper democracy at the federal level if you can’t vote third party, realistically.
Ah, so it’s just corrupt rich people screwing the world over like always…
I’m voting for someone better. It’s an option. They probably won’t win tho
Given the stakes in this particular election, I don’t think it’s a good option
What are the stakes? A genocidal maniac vs a genocidal maniac?
Found the white leftist.
Moghafil, you don’t get to use my people’s plight as an excuse to get out of your bare minimum duty to protect lives with your choices.
This is so much more than just a race issue, its also an LGBTQ and neurodivergence issue, while I may not like Biden, Trump and his crew have both said things and acted in ways that attack basically anyone that isn’t in the in group they deem as worthwhile, republicans have also been pushing forward increasingly hostile anti-trans, anti-abortion laws, and Trump as president would bolster their ability to harm vulnerable groups even more
I really hate Biden’s unquestioning support of Israel but holy fuck under Trump some of my friends might actually die, and others will lose their rights to be themselves!
Lets also not forget Trump and his fans pushing for things that could very well spell the actual end of democracy in the US.
Edit: I didn’t mean to subtract from the race issue, that’s also a big part of it, I simply mean to say that Trump is a massive broad spectrum threat to multiple vulnerable groups across the US
Also edited because apparently this isn’t readily apparent to some people: under Trump, the genocide of Palestinians will continue, I am very very much against this, the “holy fuck” line is not expressing that I think the genocide of Palestinians is secondary, but is expressing exasperation at the people who constantly insist that the only way to protest is to not vote not seeing the problem with Trump getting into power
While I’m at it, pretty much whatever the results of the election are, shit will probably hit the fan, I urge everyone to learn first aid, a good start is www.stopthebleed.org
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And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who gave Netenyahu the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.
I know damn well who Netenyahu would be voting for if he got the choice, and that’s all you need to know too if you aren’t just a bougeyvik fascist.
And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who gave Netenyahu the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.
Not to mention the guy who ALSO will block the ICC from prosecuting Netanyahu.
And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who
Not how voting works
I know damn well who Netenyahu would be voting for if he got the choice
probably the guy blocking the International Criminal Court from prosecuting him for documented war crimes
You’ve got your head on straight. Screw these attempts to guilt you into voting how someone else wants you to
Did you guys prepare a candidate capable of primarying Biden?
i like this one, this one is good.
Why isn’t there other options ? 2 is not enough !
Because our current voting system is “first past the post”. And that it eventually leads to an inevitable 2 party system.
This video is one of my favorites that explain this problem. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=ri9DbpvXxjyRonN3
I’ll vote if you do more than just vote.
Get hooked up with Election Science to switch your elections to approval. Pick-all-you-like voting really helps make people feel like they actually got to voice their opinion at the ballot box.
I have friends who are into this kind of electoral work. It would be an improvement.
Yes, actually, everyone urging for pragmatism at the polls should be willing to take steps other than just voting.
What do you suggest? I’m for this. What are good steps? I want to get from where we are to a voting system that allows me to choose a different candidate without wasting my ballot.
Well, for example, a friend of mine is a big proponent of star voting. He joined DSA, which is an org I’m a member of and how we met, promoted it within the chapter and started holding meetings that actually attract a lot of people inside and outside the group. He networks with other activists around the country who have been successful in implementing voting reforms in their state and municipalities, and Now he is trying to build his own local campaign around Star voting. Its slow, steady political work and it is necessary. Build campaigns and get in front of people, do politics. Not everyone is gonna side with you but if it is a good idea, enough people will.
And in the temporary absence or inability to do that, educating yourself and others is vitally important work. But groups like DSA, WFP, and various local progressive campaigns have a low barrier to entry and participation. People learn so much so quickly when we get involved. Its not always easy, and for example, I don’t really even enjoy politics all that much, not like some people who seem to love to debate and get a charge out of doing political work. But I’ve met amazing people and learned so much and orgs are desperate for volunteers. My primary focus is movement building and education, and also I seem to have a knack for building bridges. So if that electoral voting work is what interests you, just go for it, reach out to people and most importantly be patient!
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying a tit for tat arrangement is suggesting that anyone who doesn’t “do more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for political activity beyond voting which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go vote. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
This is extremely hostile. I was being cheeky. I want people to get more involved as much as other people want me to vote, that’s the point I’m trying to make. I’ll vote, and I don’t need you to try and scare me or shame me about it. Maybe ask yourself why this makes you so upset that you have to swear at a stranger over it. Seems like there’s something else going on that deserves your attention more than my dumb comment
It’s intended to be hostile. Maybe you were “being cheeky” (I doubt it) but it doesn’t read that way in a text format and a lot of people making those same statements are not. What makes me so upset about this situation is people like yourself not taking it seriously. We are, without hyperbole, looking at an honest to God threat to democracy and you are making if/then statements about your willingness to vote. Trying to shame people into being more politically active is the wrong way to do it.
I am tired of people treating this like it’s a game, and I am tired of people being flippant about voting for the lesser of two evils.
What makes you think being intentionally hostile toward someone would persuade them to vote? Wouldn’t it make more sense to try and educate? I said I was being cheeky, but even now you can’t resist calling me a liar. I really wish you wouldn’t, you know, I’m pretty easy to get along with, I tolerate other peoples opinions even when they disagree with me. I vote and I do much more than that.
If anyone is trying to shame, it is this group who descended on me within a 5 minute period with a flurry of down votes and open hostility. I’m genuinely sorry you’re upset about the state of the world, I’m upset too. so why should we try to upset each other more? It doesn’t make sense.
FYI that isn’t me down voting you. I don’t use down votes.
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying that someone who does “more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for voting instead of attending the occasional local better-timed rally which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go do activism. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
Nice of you to assume people who vote don’t do anything else to improve things.
How will you look back on whatever you’re doing right now if you, and people like you, don’t vote and lead to Trump winning? All that work for nothing because you refused to do the one thing that could help everything else you’re trying to do.
I didn’t say that, where did I say anything like that? Why are you trying to villainize me? I want other people to get involve as badly as you want me to vote, is the point I’m trying to make. Save your shame and fear. Try talking to me like a person and not, I don’t know, whatever demon you’re trying to make me out to be
That’s exactly what you said
“I’ll vote if you do more than just vote.”
You’re implying that you know they don’t do more than vote and that implies you assume the same thing of anyone that votes.
That’s an incredibly dim interpretation. I just don’t like being constantly lectured to about voting. It is completely valid to criticize this crappy system and yeah I think its okay to suggest that people do a little more than just vote every 2-4 years.
It seems like people aren’t getting as upset at the idea that I might not vote, as they are at the suggestion that there is some alternative to it, that democracy can be more than voting for one of two deeply corrupt candidates who uphold a deeply corrupt system. I will vote, because its easy.
Doubt.
Doubt what? That I’ll vote? Why do you doubt it?
I just want people to be more politically active so that they learn from experience. For some reason certain people get angry when I do, even if I do it nicely, even if I say please
Doubt what?
That you’ll execute on that specific conditional.
Its not conditional, I just want people to be politically active just as much as people want me to vote.
So my doubts have been confirmed. Glad you fell on the side of voting anyways.
If you think I’m being ridiculous, I could flip through my history and find a dozen folks who would unironically holdfast to the letter of your original comment.
What do you mean your doubts have been confirmed?
Look at the other comments on this thread, the incredible hostility my innocuous comment got. So that road goes both ways. If I reacted to the way I got jumped on here, I’d probably set up camp in the not-voting bloc too.
So is your vote contingent on whether people in this thread demonstrate that they have/will “do more than just vote”? If they don’t, will you abstain from voting?
I guess I’m unclear.
< someone who thinks going to grammable rallies and left signaling online counts as “more than voting”
Going to rallies is good, but I’m actually extremely skeptical of online “activism”. I actually don’t have a benchmark for what " counts as more," but I want people to have actual experience doing political work, which looks different for everyone. I find the most value in the discussions that come from regular working people, educating themselves and each other.
Why do you want me to be a hypocrite? Do you actually believe that nothing exists beyond the bare minimum? But I remember feeling this deep dark cynicism about politics at certain times in my life too. So hopefully you are on a road that leads you away from cynical otherizing and you discover the communities of volunteers that hopefully exist very close to you, so you are able to have some of these experiences.
At which point you might look back on these moments of cynicism with disappointment, as I look back on my mine. Its okay though, the system is supposed to instill these feelings of frustration and alienation into people, so it isn’t really your fault. But in order to build a movement we need people doing work they are passionate about and I hope you find work like that and join soon.
It’s more than nothing at all. Are you suggesting we should just vote and otherwise lay down and wait for fascism to descend upon us?
I’m saying that if you mother fuckers didn’t have to be dragged kicking and screaming to fill a piece of paper out every four years, we’d have never gotten this far with.
Forget Hillary, Bernie could have won the primary if y’all spent the energy on voting that y’all bring to whining endlessly about how your privilege blinds you to how much it changes for people who need it the most.
Me exactly
Gotta do an electoral reform? Yup.
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(guy beating you with a hammer) this will hurt worse if the other guy gets the hammer next
and you know they’re right because we already got a beating from the other guy
I would like to stop voting for people who beat me with hammers, personally. I don’t think voting for the guy beating me with a hammer is going to get him to stop beating me with a hammer.
You have the choice of picking which guy and which hammer. You can abstain, but you’re still getting a beating.
What difference is there, then? Why would I participate in this farcical excuse for a political system?
Lighter hammer. Less pain.
This has to be a joke, you’re joking right?
You need an electoral reform to get a better voting system but I doubt that’s ever gonna happen.
Locking this post, the amount of reports and uncivil pissing matches is getting to be more than we can address in a timely fashion.
Every time one of these posts come up there’s a bunch of people who are always like but the republicans are way worse!
And it just seems like it’s a bunch of white people who have never actually been discriminated against and now they’re worried because these policies will finally affect them.
Whereas when black and brown people have been talking about how both parties have fucked us over for decades upon decades, we are told to shut up.
When white nationalists walk down streets with torches and actually kill people, there’s like 3 arrests. When an angry mob tries to overthrow the government, and livestream themselves doing it, and are all caught on camera, we have the slowest reaction of all time, and their jail terms for literal insurrection are just a couple years. When BLM did even more peaceful protests, they’re arrested and smeared.
When students protest genocide, they’re arrested and smeared. But when you send in police or a bunch of pro Israel goons attacks students peacefully sitting on some grass, silence. And that’s the democrats. Sorry, but one side being marginally less genocidal than the other, but still allowing all these corporations who pollute the world and kill people indiscriminately, is not that much better a choice.
Biden has seemingly lost the vote of the youth and of black and brown people in America. Those are THE two groups that put him in the presidency. White people actually voted pretty much for trump. 60% or so, white women even more so.
So people scared about students and brown and black people not voting for biden might want to just stop for a second and wonder why they keep asking us to save them instead of going and actually talking to racist grandpa and grandma in the back and getting them to vote for their own interests.
I’ve voted in every election that I’ve been able to - local, state, and national. It has done fuck all for me while a couple already rich people got ten times richer. Why should I keep voting for that?
Maybe it’s time the democrats realized that they could put plank from ed edd and eddy up there and it would get more votes than biden. It’s not our fault they fucked Bernie in 2016. Biden promised to be a one term president when he ran originally. So he can’t be trusted. He doesn’t care that 34000 brown men, women, and children are being killed by him. So why on earth would I care if he loses? It’s absurd. If white people wouldn’t vote for a fascist cheetoh you wouldn’t have this issue at all.
If people had a moral spine they’d realize that genocide is evil no matter where it is.
Republicans are objectively worse by every single metric. That doesn’t make democrats perfect saints.
And to your last sentence, please explain how Trump will actually improve the situation in Gaza.
I didn’t read any of the rest of it because those two bits were stupid enough to tell me all I needed to know
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I used to also subscribe to this idea, treating Trump as a wake up call for the left in the US, but clearly this didn’t happen in his first term.
There’s no large-scale support for the left, barely any effective organization, very few left-wing politicians who could actually do anything. If Trump got a second term, the response would likely not be any different.
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Check your co2 detectors.
