I’ve been seeing a worrying number of these people on Lemmy lately, sharing enlightened takes including but not limited to “voting for Biden is tantamount to fascism” and “the concept of an assigned gender, or even an assigned name, at birth is transphobic” and none of them seem to be interested in reading more than the first sentence of any of my comments before writing a reply.
More often than not they reply with a concern I addressed in the comment they’re replying to, without any explanation of why my argument was invalid. Some of them cannot even state their own position, instead simply repeatedly calling mine oppressive in some way.
It occurred to me just now that these interactions reminded me of nothing so much as an evangelical Christian I got into an argument with on Matrix a while ago, in which I met him 95% of the way, conceded that God might well be real and that being trans was sinful and tried to convince him not to tell that to every trans person he passed, and failed. I am 100% convinced he was trolling – in retrospect I’m pretty sure I could’ve built a municipal transport system by letting people ride on top of his goalposts (that’s what I get for picking a fight with a Christian at 2AM) – and the only reason I’m not convinced these leftists on Lemmy are trolls is the sheer fucking number of them.
I made this post and what felt like half the responses fell into this category. Am I going insane?
Except that ML has mostly ended in despotism. I think we need something else. Maybe Communism isn’t the anwser, or maybe this isn’t the way to get there.
So we have established that ML has drastically improved over previous conditions, and based on vibes alone you’ve washed away material reality entirely?
What are you actually advocating for? This is just idealism, coupled with a fair shake of red-scare vibes.
Quit beating around the bush, it’s clear that you have a point you want to get across, but you haven’t revealed it. If you’re just going to continue to play coy with it then we can just stop here, this is a waste of time.
The material reality is that ML regimes normally end up in despotism that’s as bad as modern capitalism, or just revert to capitalism in the end.
It’s not idealism. Reality bears me out here. Believing in Marxism-Leninism and that this time the revolution will fix everything and not back fire is idealism.
My point is we need to move away from ML ideas to something better like anarcho-communism, Anarcho-syndicalism, socialist market economy, lesalism, heck even libertarian marxism and so on. If we know something doesn’t work why don’t we try something else?
That logic doesn’t follow.
First, you are just calling all AES countries “just as bad as Capitalism,” when that’s a complete whitewashing of history. Unless, of course, you want to say that Cuba is now worse off, same with China, same with Vietnam under French colonialism, same with Laos. All of these countries overthrew fascist or Capitalist regimes and have seen a moderate to a vast increase in metrics regarding quality of life and material conditions.
Secondly, you have to do a lot of legwork to explain why China isn’t in the Socialist stage. 70% of their top 500 companies are state-owned, including 24/25 of the top revenue companies. It isn’t a Communist state, but just reading Critique of the Gotha Programme and The Communist Manifesto should be straightforward enough to inform you that eradicating Capitalism takes time and requires gradual improvements.
On to your point, Anarcho-Communism failed miserably in Revolutionary Catalonia, and even then still had some form of a state for administration and police, Syndicalism hasn’t yet seen success, China, Vietnam, and Laos are currently close to Socialist Market Economies anyways, and neither Lesailism nor Libertarian Marxism (an oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one) have seen success either.
The closest to working out a Libertarian Socialist society has ever been is the Chiapas region. Even then, they exist as an anti-colonial pseudostate resisting Mexico, and as such it cannot be reasonably assumed that their strategy can apply elsewhere.
Without speaking in vibes, idealism, or whitewashing history, why do you believe an Anarchic strategy would see more success than a Marxist one? What part of Marxism do you specifically reject, without calling to idealism? Ie, revolution necessarily means despotism, which is false as proven previously.
I was not comparing against their previous regime before, I was comparing them against other contemporary nations. If you want to make that comparison between now and then the ML regimes still haven’t done any better than capitalist hybrid economies. If anything they have done worse. Germany used to be run under fascists too, as did Spain and Italy, yet both have done well under hybrid economies, in fact better than places like Cuba since they don’t have constant shortages.
Actually I don’t have to do hardly any legwork. Socialism requires democracy, and China are not democratic. Cuba is not completely democratic either. Therefore neither are truly socialist even if they have socialist-like elements. Plenty of Marxists including the Trotskyists organization I used to be a part of don’t support China. You don’t have to support that regime to be a Marxist so I don’t know why you are making excuses for them.
I don’t necessarily reject Marxism either. As I said Libertarian Marxism is fine. There are probably variations of classical Marxism that could be made to work if you ignore anything written by Lenin, Mao, Stalin, etc. It seems that’s primarily where it went wrong, starting with Lenin. If my understanding of Marxism is correct, it doesn’t suggest a singular way to organize socialist societies, it only highlights the problems with capitalist and other societal models. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. The problem with with the later additions like Marxism-Leninism or Maoism.
The reason I don’t have a problem with Anarchism is that they have never attempted to form or justify dictatorships and other non-democratic regimes like you keep trying to. Like dude/dudette stop supporting China, it’s not that hard. That’s the least you can do. Like the bare minimum.
What you are saying doesn’t add up logically, it’s not just about vibes. Though frankly you don’t pass the vibe check either which is far more important than you give it credit for. I can justify eugenics using logic if I have to. It doesn’t pass the vibe check so to speak. When dealing with humans you have to consider the human aspect of the situation.
Why are you comparing developing countries with developed countries, especially when these developing countries have been the targets of sanctions, imperialism, colonialism, and other horrific events that stunted their growth?
Germany, Spain, and Italy maintained global trade with America and other European nations, while other countries were sanctioned, bombed, or otherwise fought against.
Socialism requires Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and is a transitory state towards Communism. Cuba and China are both democratic, just not via liberal democracy. You can read up on the process yourself. It’s fine to believe Liberal Democracy to be a superior system to Democratic Centralism, but you are going to have to defend your statement that Cuba and China are not Democratic.
You do not have to support Cuba and China to be a Marxist, this is a correct statement. However, you do have to be a Materialist and perform Materialist analysis, not vague idealism. Though, if I may take an admittedly cheap shot, it’s entirely clear why you have been arguing purely off idealism and vibes now that you revealed you used to be in a Trotskyist org, lol.
Libertarian Marxism does not exist, if you are talking about Libertarian Socialism that is fine, but Marxism is pretty clearly laid out as a siezing of State power and weilding it in the interests of the Proletariat until Class, State, and Money are abolished.
There we go. Your understanding of Marxism is indeed incorrect. Please, revisit Critique of the Gotha Programme. This is a primary source from Marx himself where he depicts what a Socialist state may look like. Marx has never advocated for Anarchism or Libertarianism, and spent much of his time arguing against such concepts. You seem to be referring to what Anarchists accept from Marx, which is purely his analysis of Capitalism, rejecting Dialectics, Historical Materialism, and how he believes a Communist society may come to be.
Lenin, Mao, and even Stalin were in fact Marxists. I suggest actually reading Lenin. Additionally, a Trotskyist rejecting Lenin is unheard of, Trotskyism is built on Lenin’s works! Lenin, unlike Marx, actually held deep respect for Anarchists like Kropotkin, even if he disagreed with them. Lenin’s contributions to Marxism largely consist of the idea that revolutions should be guided and assisted by a Vanguard Party, the notion of Democratic Centralism, and his analysis of Imperialism, all of which coincide with Marxism. This isn’t even an endorsement of Lenin, by the way. Just proving his ties to Marxism. If you consider Lenin to be nonsense, then it would make sense that you also consider everything Marx wrote outside of Capital to also be nonsense worth ignoring.
I haven’t expressed support for China or Cuba, just stated that they are better off than they were before, are Socialist, and indicated that they practice Democratic Centralism, rather than Liberal Democracy. Your gatekeeping of Socialism behind pure vibes is again, Idealism.
The fact that you suggest Anarchism without any actual mechanical reason for it other than vibes and idealism is Utopianism, which Marx and Engels rejected in favor of Scientific Socialism. Try reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for more info on what I am talking about.
All in all, we cannot argue what’s good and what’s bad if you purely are arguing off of vibes, and not actually analyzing anything. You’ve been making blatant emotional statements with no analysis for us to actually discuss, so it is difficult to even begin talking.
This entire convo started because you don’t believe Revolutions have been successful at changing Mode of Production, and now we are at a point where you have been debatebro-ing only off of vibes.
I’ll leave you with some homework you can choose to do if you wish to correct your confusion: please, if you want to actually understand Marxism, read Critique of the Gotha Programme and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. The first has Marx critiquing a Socialist program and advocating for a different approach to Socialism, and the latter goes over Historical Materialism, Utopianism, and Scientific Socialism. You currently do not appear to understand these, which is why you are confused right now.
You forget there was a whole world war in Spain, Italy, and Germany?
Then why are there people fighting for democracy in China? How long have the Castro family been in charge of Cuba? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to question if these are really democracies. I would have a look at a democracy index like the one by The Economist, or the one here: http://democracyranking.org/wordpress/. Before you say anything the USA is considered a flawed democracy by the first index, and is something like number 16 on the second, so it’s not like they have an overt US bias.
Libertarianism just means giving people and the press freedom. Things like freedom of speech, freedom of association, and so on. If Marx is against this I frankly don’t want to follow Marx.
I wasn’t claiming them to not be marxists. I am saying I don’t agree with their ideas. I am also not a Trotskyist? Where did I say this? I said I used to be part of a Trotskist organization. I left for a reason.
I never claimed that Marx supported Anarchism, just that he didn’t give an exact plan for forming a socialist nation.
I would also remind you that this is politics not engineering or science. There are no mechanical reasons, only human and mathematical ones.
You don’t seem to have realized it yet but I don’t care what you label “idealist”. Idealism has become a word marxists use against anything they don’t like. Plenty of normal people would call Marxists idealists for crying out loud. If you mean in the philosophical sense idealism includes all kinds of different things including solipsism, which is probably one of the more solid philosophies out there and is basically impossible to disprove.
I will have a look at the reading material though. I don’t read much political stuff, last thing I read would be The Conquest of Bread. Unless you count things like the Dune series, which do have political themes but aren’t a non-fiction manifesto.
No, I did not forget. I was specifically referring to the post war period. That’s why I ask that you analyze countries over time. If you want extra points, analyze a country pre-Revolution as compared to post-Revolution, then compare them with their contemporaries as they stand within global geopolitics. For example, Cuba was and still is brutally sanctioned, but retains a high life expectancy, literacy rate, and so forth, even beating blow for blow with the US on those.
Would you mind giving a contemporary example of a “pro-democracy protest” in China? According to Harvard, the CPC has an over 90% approval rate among their citizens. I am not saying these protests don’t exist, but they should be taken at a broader context. The Economist’s Democracy Index is an index that measures Private Propety rights and Liberal Democracy, Socialist states are designed to lose these. The US loses too just a bit because it has lower economic mobility than Social Democracies. President Diaz-Canal is the current non-Castro President of Cuba. Is your argument that George W. Bush should have been barred from office because H.W. preceded him?
Libertarianism does not mean freedom of press and people. Libertarianism specifically refers to small government. If you want to see it in action, see the Chiapas region. Marx is in favor of a Socialist and eventual Communist government, this does not mean the press does not have freedom or the people, it just means the state is publicly run and operated. Read Engels On Authority if you have questions about this.
Fair enough about mislabeling you a Trot. However, the rest of the comment needs to be addressed. Politics is entirely the product of Material reality. People are driven by their Material Conditions, not just random vibes! This is crucial.
When I say you are being an Idealist, I mean you have been arguing off of Vibes and not Metrics. You don’t have clear measures of Material Reality, you have been arguing using your preconcieved notions and optics. That, in my opinion, is a problem when discussing what remains to be done by Leftists like yourself and me.
That all being said, I do appreciate you accepting to read theory. I still have The Conquest of Bread on my reading list (coincidentally, Lenin was a big fan of Kropotkin and debated him in person). I’ll give a short reading list if that helps:
Critique of the Gotha Programme - Karl Marx Covers a criticism of a contemporary (to Marx) Socialist program, with advocacy for what he believes to be a better path
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific - Engels Goes ovef Utopianism, Scientific Socialism, and Historical Materialism. Crucial for understanding the philosophical aspects of Marxism and more relevant to our conversation addresses the failures of Utopian Idealists like the Owenites and how Scientific Socialism fixes this
On Authority - Engels goes over Anarchism vs Marxism, and what it means to use a state
Bonus Section! Only if YOU want further understanding, if the previous sections leave you confused or wanting more
How Marxism Works - Chris Harman written as a short, 40 or so page pamphlet going over the absolute basics of Marxism, from a Trotskyist perspective (even MLs recommend this work). You can read this one instead of any of the above if you are short on time or care
The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism - V.I. Lenin 1 page summary of Marxism from Lenin’s perspective. This is the sparknotes for the sparknotes, but leaves a lot out.
State and Revolution and Imperialism - The Highest Stage of Capitalism - V.I. Lenin These are the ones you could choose to read if you want to understand exactly where a Marxist-Leninist is coming from. This is 80% of Lenin’s major contributions to Marxism, it goes over the role of the State within the context of revolution, and how Capitalist states resorted to export of Capital to the third world to super-exploit workers for super-profits in much of Western Europe and America in order to combat The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, leading these countries to develop far quicker and slow the development of third world countries.